ROFLMFAO

Knowing some folks who have been in every business from growing, distributing, preparing and sharing plant medicines, I can say for sure that it's utterly possible to do it ethically while providing fair access to the medicines to those who need it, and to make money hand over fist at the same time...

These uppity folks with their plastic retreat sure ain't doing that, for sure.

When it comes to man's capacity for greed... Truly, nothing is sacred.

Ayahuasca-USA posted this on the ONAC page:
"Having recently come to a new understanding of the status of our legal protections under the aegis of the New Haven Native American Church, we have entered into very respectful communication with James Flaming Eagle Mooney and the Oklevueha Native American Church. We are very gratified for his desire to ensure that Ayahuasca USA has the full legal protection of the ONAC, and we have hopes to get this matter cleared up by Monday or Tuesday. We want to give everyone the assurance that we are working with them to become an officially established branch of the Oklevueha Native American Church, in great and continued respect for their work in this world."
(posted a few days ago)

Not to nitpick, but the things I italicized, then the things in bold color that I highlighted make me think that they are just writing up some fanciful wording to give the appearance that they have this in the bag. Nothing seems concrete to me. I could be wrong though.

<3

James "Flaming Eagle" Money is a con man

http://www.newagefraud.o...mf/index.php?topic=253.0



also I just cant believe it but ive seen pictures but does the card he sells really say (peyote, cannabis, ayahuasca, etc) like it really says etc, and people buy this and think they are above the law. Oh man

Yes, they do say "etc.". Oh, the complicated legalese!

Knowing ONAC who sells membership for $200 and lets anyone open a branch for $7000.... I think it is in the bag.

Research ONAC a little bit and you will see they are themselves not in any way legal and obviously out for money...

I had one of them contact me out of the blue and say if I bought their membership I could then buy any illegal plants I want to legally through the mail and that I could host ceremonies with any plant medicine legally because I paid the $200 and got the plastic card. Of course they dont have any legal rights to offer any of that, and besides - only needing to pay $200 to legally host ceremonies under them? Obviously they dont have standards.

but..........
i feel so inadequate without a plastic card.
not.

ive known from reflex all along those guys were sharkey,
if they were all that divine, they would have developed better grow teks.

my thing with these guys is simple,
im not against religion, or activists, or advocates,
i just have serious doubt they amount to much in the tangible world.

i suspect the real force behind drug war change is the producers,
not the hot air.
for instance the greens war is being won thru overgrow essentially.
activists are behind the curve, with little respect for the front line growers usually.

IMO 1 grower is worth 1000 voters in tangible effect.
to me, this translates with all sacred plants.
call me insane, but conflict is usually won by supply, not wind.

i also take great issue with the perceived indian monopoly on all this.
ill concede they own gambling, but the plant belongs to the planet and all the people.
its absurd as claiming the chinese have the cannabis holy high ground.
or claiming mexicans hold the high ground on shrooms.
its pure BS..........and the idea of " join us or be a heathen"
is IMO anti religious freedom incarnate!
imagine if only catholics could dole out wine......
and imagine if they were smug about it!

also, i wonder about the " approval thing"
i do what i do wether its "approved" or not.
im sorry, but the hydro cactus train doesnt need to stop at the station for a rubber stamp!

do we have stockholm syndrome or something?
isnt a cornerstone of the community "fawk off coppers, we get high anyway!",
for those that havent noticed, almost ANYTHING can get ya throwed in jail these days,
so, do we live for the ethnogenic experience? or do we cower in fear?
i suspect half the people here have taken a bust on some level at some point anyway,
so like no pain no gain, war is winding down, but its still "on" according to the news.
so essentially,
indians should be doing something useful and tangible ,
like doling out kevlar and advanced grow teks,
not trifling us with plastic cards of limited utility for bribes...........

and finally, who needs it?
if these groups didnt exist, would that slow down a true nexian one bit?
i doubt it.
so beyond " something is better than nothing legally" , i dont see these guys value.

Good thoughts, AH.

Thanks for elucidating some things.

And thanks Anne and others for not swallowing this with a smile. My local community puts me in contact with lots of Aya enthusiasts, most of whom seem more than willing to applaud actions like this trinity Guzmam fellow's.

There's very little questioning within the entheogenic community, it's the "rainbow and unicorn" effect , or see no evil, hear no... Etc. it's good to see that nor happening here.

The sad thing is these people who set up these illegal aboveground fake Native American Churches are not just going to lose all their money on lawyers once the DEA decides its going to make a move on "Flaming Eagle Money" and all his "churches", they are going to be locked in jail.
This religious loophole doesnt exist, except in this New Age Plastic Card Shamans mind and those who he can grift.

This ONAC member was convicted and is waiting to be sentenced next month for cannabis. ONAC did nothing to protect this member and he will be facing up to 20 years in prison now because he believed the ONAC claims.

This is how ONAC harms its members and it is only the beginning.
https://fundly.com/onac-target-of-conspiracy

I dont think anything else really needs to be said. They claim rights they dont have and offer protection that they cant enforce. Their promises to people that anything is legal is nothing but a lie - and it is hurting people.

Can we focus on this right here for a minute? Because this is a super huge deal and it's exactly why this whole charade makes me want to gag.

Ayahuasca Healings is a questionable organization that has been publicly called out. So to cover their ass they are turning to another questionable organization, ONAC, to legitimize their whole operation. This is absolutely appalling. Like, Im sure all of us had to read about this kind of crap in history class when we learned about colonization...and everyone could see how obviously wrong this kind of thing is in retrospect. So why is it so hard to make those same connections in the world we currently live in? I really think it's important for us to see the forest through the trees here.

Taking drugs legally would be awesome, for sure. But what does that actually entail, whose interest is actually being served? Plant medicines are integral to many Indigenous communities and they could potentially serve as a desperately needed resource for their advancement and well-being; providing jobs, income, healthcare, etc... But in order for this to happen it needs to be representative of their needs, not the needs of some White hippies pretending to be Indigenous. I see both of these organizations, and others similar in nature, to be absolutely destructive towards the efforts of Indigenous people to exercise their right to self-determination. I mean think about it for a minute. When Wal-Mart decides to roll into your town it's no surprise that the local business-owners are going to be upset. They can't compete with Wal-Mart, plain and simple. And sure jobs are created, but at the expense of local integrity and culture. It's obvious when it happens to us, yet for whatever reason we have a really hard time grasping that this exact situation repeats itself in a myriad of different ways. Microcosms and macrocosms, yo!

So what are these organizations actually offering in exchange for such valuable community resources? If the argument against those of us claiming cultural appropriation is that of cultural exchange, where is the exchange? As I see it, White people are taking something they consider desirable and doing everything in their power to own it. And I don't mean to ruffle feathers because Im sure nobody is out there with the explicit intention of "owning" anything, but that's precisely what is happening to plant medicines.

To elaborate, I don't think it's a bad thing that plant medicines are gaining visibility and credibility in the Western world, I think it's fantastic actually --and so do the vast majority of those arguing against Ayahuasca globalization. The problem is that as plant medicines become more desirable they inevitably become commodities in a marketplace that is designed to benefit one group of people. Look at history. It very clearly shows us that this is not a new issue. White supremacy, colonization, these systems have been around a long time and they've shown that they're resilient as anything! They've evolved and adapted and done whatever is necessary to ensure that their presence goes unnoticed and unchallenged. Oppression is a sneaky bastard, don't be fooled because it doesn't dress or talk exactly the same way it did 100 years ago. For example, why is it that when you do a google search for "Ayahuasca" you only see White organizations, White faces, you only hear White voices, read White interpretations? This is what colonization and erasure looks like. And it shouldn't be a surprise, it's been happening for a really long time! Colonized people who recognize that their resources are being exploited are logically going to do everything in their power to survive, and right now we can see that with certain Indigenous resistance groups such as UMIYAC.

Ayahuasca should be shared. It wants to be shared. But taking and sharing are two different things and groups such as Ayahausca Healings and ONAC are clearly taking advantage of the distinction. How is it OK for them to set up these centers and charge thousands of dollars yet turn a blind eye to the fact that the Shipibo, Tatuyo, Cofan, etc... are living in extreme poverty and dealing with deforestation/dislocation as a direct result of Western policy? Why aren't those tribes the ones who will benefit from Ayahuasca's surge in popularity? Why aren't their voices and opinions on the first page of results on google? Why can't they directly benefit from something that they brought to the world? The answer is because they lack the necessary resources to represent themselves in a global-market designed for, and dominated by, wealthy White people. Who, by the way, have most of the resources. It's not an equal balance of power at all, and to approach the issue as if it rests on even ground is not only irrational but it's harmful. And then to see something that could be used to uplift impacted communities and take that opportunity away for your own self gain, well-intended or not, is just terrible...

So in my opinion nobody should support this group at all, regardless of what ONAC has to say about them. In my eyes they represent exactly what it is I seek to dismantle, particularly when I take psychedelic drugs.


Heres an interesting article on the matter. I haven't read through the majority of it yet, but from what I can tell it seems to offer a balanced perspective.

Some further reading for anyone interested:

UMIYAC Declaration - I post this incessantly everywhere because I believe it's important to hear the voices of those who are directly impacted by the issues we discuss here. Not how Graham Hancock interprets the issue, or Amber Lyon, or Joe Rogan.

UN Declaration on Rights of Indigenous Peoples - Intellectual and spiritual property! You may not recognize these things, but keep in mind that you also live in a world where you benefit from these things regardless of whether or not you recognize their authority. It might not be real to you but it is certainly real to those who feel that their culture and way of life is being erased.

Declaration of War Against Exploiters of Lakota Spirituality - Not specific to Ayahuasca obviously, but relevant specifically to ONAC

A directory of tribes and organizations that are recognized by the official NAC

Praxis. wrote:


^This.

this is 'integration' and 'assimilation'...
which was done to the Celts by the Romans long ago, as an example..

Now, i personally don't believe in drawing up racial or colour lines...
the way i see it there can be people of 'european' origin who completely uphold the essence of ancient custodianship, and there can be 'indigenous' (yes Colonized) people who embody the corruption of the modern industrial-millitary complex..

a number of 'real' (i.e. still in a tradition) elders of different enthic tribes have said the same thing...it's about connection to nature and heart and things like that..we all share the same mother..it's like the prophecy of Wounded Knee...the ghostdance...

BUT..i think your statement sums up a sad state of Ayahuasca popularity..
an example that comes to mind is a traveling balding ex-Osho type who charges high prices (in europe) for his singing bowl and hippy folk concert, in the most corrupt, excessive, self-indulgent and greedy
end of new-age rubbish..like a pop star...the face of 'Ayahuasca'

regardless of race, where traditions of such plants are lost we need to reinterrpret methodology, philosophy and ethics, yes..the corruption rots the freedom such vistas offer us..

threads like this...wake up calls, are important, thanks all.

being associated with any of these organizations to me implies(for me personally) that I would be falling into compliance with the idea that I belong to a nation who's laws(however f'ing idiotic) dictate the way I conduct myself personally. None of that is true for me. I violate laws as I see fit. My moral compass is mine, and mine alone. Anyone who truly wishes to move towards independence from the insanity of empire would be wise to do the same. Cultivate your own aptitude for discernment, rather than running off what has trickled down and been peddled to you by dubious and stupid groups of individuals.

I do not support my "legal" right to use psychedelics, because I find the idea that it should ever be a legal issue in the first place offensive.

The moment you fall into the place where you are agreeing with a context of of guidelines for how your own life is to be lived, authored by another/others, is the moment you forfeit your right to make your own choices. I see no value in this. It implies a type of ownership that I never agreed to.

I will do as I like. For others, the approach of a legitimate entheogenic church in the eyes of the lawmakers and upholders might be an appropriate one. For myself, this is not an appropriate approach. There is very little room in my mind for the appropriate use of action taken against the will of another. I limit that to actions taken by individuals which threaten the ability of others to live and express they're will in peace. There is room for grey areas of debate, but the drug thing does not fit into any grey area. Legal drugs is an absurd idea. There is no place for the invokation of law in the context of drug use alone.

I understand the movement towards legalization, but I absolutely abhor the sterility of the situation.

Id question this until im blue in the face. And this is the underlying issue, everything ONAC has built is off of this premise, which is lie.... this cat regardless of whatever 'good work he has done' is just another white guy dressing up as indian selling to other white people what they think indians should be like. yuk yuk yuk. This is a huge fraud run by a con man plain and simple, his bogus church will continue to sell memberships and offshoot churches under the umbrella of native religous freedom, which comes off the backs of native peoples suffering and hardwork to maintain their traditions from exploiters like ONAC. in my book this is one the worst kinds of human behavior around. pure spiritual exploitation.



edit:


ONAC church also "authorized"

a brothel (that got busted)
sham medicine to cure cancer (person died)
cannabis grows (people been arrested)




get the f outta here.

I know you're just playing devil's advocate, and you're not trying to throw the baby out with the bathwater--and I respect that.

But the fact that there are some Native people involved with ONAC, who may even hold positions of power, doesn't erase the concerns raised by so many others. I think it's a dangerous game to selectively pick and choose those individuals who happen to agree with something that benefits you. One medicine-man (or 2 or 3 or 5) does not speak for a complex community of diverse Indigenous cultures. For an outsider to make any kind of declaration or decision on behalf of those who are actually impacted is wrong, plain and simple.

I don't want to make assumptions here about people's politics, but I feel like I can safely wager that the vast majority of Nexians think Donald Trump is a racist bigoted asshat. Recent polls show that the majority of the US agrees. Yet nonetheless, Trump managed to round up a bunch of Black pastors and get them to go on national TV to endorse his campaign. Now does he suddenly have the authority to make decisions for the Black community simply because a few Black people are down with him? I don't care what those pastors think, Trump is still a racist and most reasonable people can see that clear as day.

So yeah, ONAC has some Native membership--and yeah, the guy they got to dish out peyote happens to be Native. What does that even mean though? I wouldn't vote for Trump if some Black pastors told me to do it because I know how detrimental his presidency would be to Black people; so why would I sit in ceremony with someone who is affiliated with a group as notorious as ONAC just because he is Native? A vote for Trump is still a vote for Trump, and ONAC is still ONAC. The impact that ONAC has on the efforts of Native communities is still the same regardless of who's actually dishing out peyote. Why do something if I know it is hurting people? It might not be hurting everyone but it is still hurting people. I dunno, maybe I'm just simple-minded but honestly that's just what it boils down to for me...are my feelings really worth that kind of conflict and harm? I mean there are SO MANY plant-based entheogens to choose from that nobody is going to get upset about...I honestly just don't get it.

Of course nothing is binary, and there are going to be a lot of perspectives and opinions regarding this subject within those communities that are most affected by it. So let them work that out amongst themselves. Self-determination is a human right, and when we decide we want something badly enough that we can't respect their right to decide for themselves I think we do a lot of damage. Ayahuasca Healings looking to ONAC for validation is a perfect example of this. They are, whether intentionally or not, disregarding the concerns of hundreds of thousands of Native people who are directly impacted by the actions of these organizations, which offer nothing to Native communities, simply because they feel entitled to peddle Ayahuasca--which I really don't even understand what that has to do with ONAC. Aya is from South America, the traditions that ONAC claims entitlement to are North American and have nothing to do with yage whatsoever. I wouldn't expect the actual NAC to endorse anything concerning Aya, why on earth would ONAC think they have any say in the matter at all? That's like asking someone from Madagascar about Iboga....completely silly. The fact that they are trying to use ONAC's approval as a front for legitimacy just shows their blatant disrespect and/or willful ignorance.

And no Im not saying that 100%-definitely-there's-no-way-in-hell Westerners should engage with these medicines. I'm saying that it's not my call, and out of respect for other people I'm willing to set aside my own desires until they collectively feel that the world is ready for their wisdom. It doesn't matter if I think I'm ready for it or not, because I recognize the fact that colonized people have their own set of obstacles to overcome--and their efforts to rebuild and survive takes priority over my feelings.

Ayahausca Healings has no regard for the real-world needs of the communities in which it is profiting off of and clearly doesn't care about the fact that their organization is creating conflict. They are more concerned about their own feelings, and lining their own pockets, than they are the dignity and well-being of another culture.

Here are links regarding the questionable activities of ONAC brought up by T.Harper:

Cannabis-related arrests

More cannabis-related shenanigans

I'm lazy but I mean if you do a google search for ONAC or James Mooney and "cannabis arrests" or something similar you will find pages of reading material.

The brothel mentioned was a series of "churches" in Sedona and Phoenix which offered "tantric sexual healing". The Goddess Temples they were (are?) called. ONAC and James Mooney had officially endorsed them and their business but has since retracted their public statements, or at least I cant seem to find them. But again if you do a google search you can browse through picture after picture of Mooney at the temple locations posing with the sex workers for the camera. Sex-work is obviously a complicated issue in itself, but clearly ONAC's endorsement of their organization (which dressed up prostitution as tantra, another perfect example of why this kind of thing is so messed up) deviates from what is accepted as legitimate NAC practice. Here's a thread about it on NAFPS.

As far as someone dying of cancer, Im not super familiar with this case but as I understand it James Mooney endorsed some psuedo-healer from some branch of ONAC or something and the dude ended up killing someone due to malpractice, possibly several people. And then even after the fact Mooney went on to defend the branch and the so-called healer. Here's the thread. I haven't read through it really though so I won't pretend to know what I'm talking about, but the folks at NAFPS are super thorough and I'm sure you'll see lots of links to primary documentation of this event should you want to see and verify for yourself.

Here's an article from 2006 about how Mooney/ONAC is perceived by local Native religious leaders and practitioners in Utah. Nothing new here really.



I love you man and I respect where you're coming from, but ONAC is a fraudulent organization doing a lot of measurable damage, period. James Mooney should be held liable as a criminal for misrepresenting himself and for taking advantage of countless sincere people seeking spiritual guidance.

not trying to bust yer balls I just care about all these issues and this whole thing is not just crazy naive, but extremely dangerous and it seems to be spiraling down and being manipulated and perpetuated by a cultural predator ....really dont want to see people go to jail.
Praxis- well articulated on these issues.




ugh:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poUuORM3P1Q

..i am not personally familiar with enough of the workings of the ONAC to comment directly, but i can see a couple of things here:

1) whatever the individual (or even semi-collective) corruption within or associated within NAC generally, there are, individuals with true skills, trying to do the right thing..so we need to be careful not to collectively tar with the same brush..

2) there is evidence of clear corruption presented here by Praxis and T. Harper, and this is a great shame for those well intended within the NA community

i think the biggest problem here is, as jamie alludes to, the non-traditional political/economic power structure set up to in theory protect indigenous spiritual rights (which is itself inverse-racist in a way) ..

the same issues exist within other indigenous but government set-up, structured and funded organisations (land councils in australia being one example)

the kind of power some of these corrupt (or otherwise) individuals hold is not in keeping with the very indigenous cultural traditions said to be upheld...

often, for instance in australian indigenous land councils, the people with power can be those who are power hungry, want to or can play the 'white-fella' big-man game, and happen to be literate in the legal and economic worlds..

while generalisations are hard to make, such organisations do not always effectively represent the 'council of elders' non-pyramidal decision making mechanism that many tribes had..the leaders of such organisations are usually not democratically elected by their tribe or clan as a whole, and in cases absolutely do not represent the needs or wants of the majority of their own people..

3) lastly, regarding questionable, commercial and/or unethical Ayahuasca 'healing' practitioners, i think a (carefully evidenced) list of such people should be made available...
naive and unsuspecting people can pay their money to be quite damaged, exploited, or really just sold short of what could be called true experienced 'healing practices'..

people, like the dodgy guy i alluded to earlier, are amassing money on the basis of a surge of interest in ayahuasca...this needs to be watched...checked..
in the interests of the community as a whole..

yes, aspects of the entheogenic revolution have been hijacked by the lies of greed and self-aggrandisemnet
.