I really wish joedirt had access to an EEG machine and stuff to do a full polysomnograph..

Theres 4 non-REM stages to sleep where brainwave EEG activity progressively slows from alpha to theta, then delta in stages 3/4; muscle tone and cardiorespiratory tone fall through each till getting to REM where dreaming usually occurs and cardiorespiratory activity increases eg agitated breathing.

Conditions like narcolepsy give a rapid transition to the REM phase without much of the preliminary 4 stages and is associated with crazy hypnogogic and hypnopompic hallucinations.In REM sleep theres a dissociation between muscle tonic activity and whatevers going on in the head/mind so people usually are incapable of moving.

Stages 1-4 and REM are associated with progressive reduction in 5HT/noradrenaline/histamine activity, and REM with a burst of acetylcholine action; this is between the upper brainstem and the hypothalamus/thalamus/basal forebrain and from here to the limbic and cortical parts.

Theres some fascinating sleep-related disorders where the above don't apply eg REM with preserved muscle tone and activity where people act out their dreams, and parasomnias where transition from 1 phase to the next misbehaves giving bizarre effects like night terrors and confusional arousals.

Interesting stuff!

I once had an OOBE, where prior to waking, I visualized the dog running up the hall of my parents house, onto the bed I was sleeping in...just before it happened.
It freaked me out and fascinated me, although I don't pay much mind to lucid dreaming anymore.

Astral projection is one of those things that science just doesn't quite have a method to reproduce empirically, nor describe the phenomena with reproducible data. It is my favorite example of the limitations of the scientific method.

Cool experience joe!

I'm excited to see how your future experiments go



^ This is something that resonates with my experiences as well and is probably an important point when thinking about this stuff.

And if one of any of these different states we can enter is non-local, then they all have the potential to be non-local, at times. Not saying they all are non-local all the time, of course, and some tend to be more so than others it seems.

I've had experiences through many different routes where afterwords i was able to verify that it did indeed seem to reflect aspects of our reality that previously i could not have known about through logic or conventional sensory perception; and this has been consistent through experiences in dreams, OBEs, psychedelics, visions or OBEs during meditation or spontaneously, and so on. But so far usually this verification isn't done through any clever effort of my own, and was just a part of how things unfolded (like having a vision a tsunami carnage and then seeing the japan disaster on the news 20 minutes later, or an OBE of seeing my cat do something weird and then witnessing it once back in my body)

Mostly through dream journaling i become somewhat obsessed with documenting phenomena in my life that seemed to have no other reasonable explanation apart from some kind of non-locality being involved. It was happening all the time, and at one point several times a day. Its interesting that these occurrences (which included things like synchronicities, telepathy, visions, prophetic dreams, and so on) seemed to increase in frequency with daily harmala dosing, although theres no doubt other factors were involved to some degree.

I mention harmalas/caapi/rue specifically because at some point in my work with high doses i started frequently experiencing OBEs very similar to those described here (along with the raft of other psychedelic affects they have). The OBEs would come if i relaxed into the trance, then i'll sort of spontaneously snap or spin out of my body into this 0 gravity OBE where i'm hovering in my room, or walking around, and its filled with that same euphoria you described in the OP. One time with caapi i entered a trance as this euphoria hit, and saw a green flying saucer looking thing that began to pull me out of my body. It was very intense and pleasurable but so shocking that i accidentally snapped myself out of it.

Sometimes however, right after i leave my body i'll pass into these other realms that are nothing like my room, and seem like some other part of the world or some another dimension altogether. Its always curious though how when i'm walking around during these OBEs, whether in my room or somewhere else, its almost always as if my body and mind feel like they're on something similar to a solid dose of aya/pharma even though i hadn't ingested any dmt that night- just harmalas. Sometimes its been so intense that my spirit body, or whatever you want to call it, had to lay down wherever it was because the experience became overpowering and i'd be forced to give in to synesthesia trances that were pulling my attention inwards.

Anyways sorry to drift somewhat off topic. I guess one reason i mention it is because some of the psychedelic states i've experienced in meditation are at times very similar to this sort of thing. I suspect pinoline and other endoegnous beta-carbolines/tryptamines are some of the culprits but this post is long enough as it is.

Anyways reading this thread and HF's post i was reminded of an experience of his that google helped me find again just now. I hope ya don't mind me quoting it hf but its just too funny, relevant, and mind boggling not to post

Its part of this post in the good ol' improbability of hyperspace thread

You and me both! I have actually wanted to purchase a used one for a long time now to monitor meditation states. Corpus is this something a person could feasibly do themselves with a setup like this?

As far as using it to capture an OOB, well let's just say at this point I'd be happy to experience another OOB, but alas no such luck as of yet. LOTS and LOTS of dreams though as I sit here 3 weeks removed from daily cannabis consumption. I love it. I really did miss having dreams while I was using cannabis all the time... For sure I don't believe I will ever relapse back into daily usage again.



Fascinating. Maybe it's just been a awhile since I studied these things in school or perhaps they have a better understanding of the REM states now than the did when I was in college 15 years ago.




I don't think it's paranoid and the other things you mention are also true as well. The only way it would shake up the world would be if it could be done on demand and then the person would have to be willing to subject himself/herself to sleep labs around the world... And I'm certain if this was really doable as soon as governments realized top secret info was no longer safe the person would just disappear...

In any event I have only done this once, I have zero credibility, and thus poses no threat to anyone right now!

*now, while he least expects it, move it boys, get him!*

What a lovely thread. Yesterday I received my copy of "Buhlman, William - Adventures Beyond the Body: How to experience out-of-body travel" and it was a great read. I skipped the science part, so I was able to read it in 2h. Awesome! He mentions something, which could be interesting/helpful for someone having an OBE:


Hyperspace Fool, can you confirm this? The guides Buhlman describes are reminiscent of your dream teachers.

If there is a local medical university, they may have the equipment along with someone who knows how to use it. If you can replicate the OOB state (or maybe even if you can't), perhaps they would be willing to take a look at your brain waves.

Hix I'm sure that's true, but I'd like to sit down with one for more than a single session.
I'd really like to get some insight into how different meditation practices effect EEG...aka basically I'd like to use the machine as a biofeedback machine to help explore different states of consciousness.. I mean for one I'd like to get a base line normal readying and then vape 20mgs... I'm pretty sure this isn't something I can do at a university! lol

But, along your lines of thinking I could probably take a some classes (I literally work 2 blocks from MIT) and get some experience working with the technology and then maybe I would in fact be able to do it myself.

In a word, no!

To really analyse 'sleep disorders', an EEG alone doesn't cut it. It gives limited (but vital) info only, and it needs to be correlated with eye movements (EOG- an electro-oculogram- these are leads applied externally close to the eyes to demonstrate REMs), an EMG (electromyogram- leads applied usually around the chin and a leg to check degrees of muscle tone),an actigraph to check restlessness or focal movements, an ECG, and to do the job completely, an O2 saturation monitor, nasal airflow detection set-up and some way of assessing respiratory excursions of the chest wall to pick up respiratory effort and drive. Once you have all these parameters monitored you have yourself a polysomnographic set-up which is able to assess stages of sleep through correlating the various 'strands' of info and also detect evidence for the phases mis-behaving.

Right that makes sense, but I should be able to use it for meditation and biofeedback practice right?

I couldn't really say. How would you plan to use the EEG exactly? What would you hope for it to add to your practises?

For instance if I can monitor alpha, beta, gamma, theta wave activity I should be able to probe which practices tend to lead to which states. If the software can be reconfigured to give alert noises when say beta activity picks up it could act as an early warning that the mental state is becoming agitated before one is thrust out of deeper state...

This really is more for self interest. Having read quite a few papers of advanced stage monks being monitored and them showing highly unusual EEG patterns I think it could in practice help lead a person to deeper meditation states faster... Beyond that I don't honestly know. I'd need to play with it to see if I could formulate some sound hypothesis to test.

joe, afaik people have had great success using EEG in conjunction with meditation to enter into deeper states, or even just for general relaxing. It makes sense that constant feedback would help you learn to change the states more quickly. Making tones that correlate with certain brainwave patterns is an awesome idea and would be much more conducive to meditation than watching the visual data.

Dr. Les Fehmi is one of the pioneers of biofeedback research and found that by using such techniques
he became far more relaxed, at ease, and centered. He says that his severe long term arthritis in his hands disappeared and his vision and sense of smell were enhanced. He became firmly convinced that this was the way life was meant to be. ^_^

I'm not sure how to go about getting a cheap EEG setup for this but i did see this kickstarter project blow past its funding goal, and it seems like you could use this device for this purpose. It says at the bottom in the FAQ that it gives raw access to EEG data. Not sure expensive it is though, it was a while ago that i briefly looked into it.
http://www.kickstarter.c...ur-brain-fitness-and-per

I think that meditative states, as you approach them in terms of going deep then the rhythm is going to slow.When you reach some way out state then who knows?

Bear in mind that with eyes open and thinking in a focussed fashion you will have beta (14-25ish Hz) activity;sitting quietly with eyes shut with a relaxed mind you'll get an alpha rhythm (8-13 Hz) especially occipitally.As you get drowsy you hit theta (4-7 Hz) and in the deepest states,delta (1 to 3-4Hz).Zero hertz is braindeath ie not even seen in deep anesthesia. To derive anything meaningful,I think you would need an assistant and some kind of videotelemetry. You can also get lower amplitude beta activity periodically in sleep stages 1 and 2.

Hahaha. Hard to believe it was only a bit over 2 years ago that I was still SWIMMING.

To be fair, it was still commonly done on other forums then, and it takes some time to get comfortable with the foolhardy act of posting controversial and illegal activities online... especially as someone who lived through the worst parts of the Drug War.

I suppose everything we write here should be construed as the mad ravings of imaginative people with a tad too much free time on their hands. Hehehe.

(And we are all under surveillance anyway... right?)

The interesting thing about that OOBE type experience was that it wasn't like AP at all. Well, the feeling and look of things was fairly AP, but I didn't have a body, and I was aware of everything in a large and expanding radius. This was not just me wandering around in my dream body, but rather being "one being" that included hundreds of individuals (mostly sleeping)... and all the flora, fauna & inanimate objects to boot. It was also done sitting in lotus, while wide awake, and while I could have been in a type of SP, I was able to move myself as soon as I wanted to.

But the similarities are also uncanny. When I chose to, I could localize my consciousness anywhere within the field and have the experience of moving around as an individual without breaking the superconscious state. I may have even manifested a dream body at times, though I never became aware of it, and was not bound by any corporeal rules (physical or astral).

Anyway, thanks for bringing back that blast from the past. It makes me feel like going through my posts, wiki, lexicon and other contributions here and reading through them again. This might be a hefty undertaking, though... my posts tend to be rather long. I could have probably tripled my post count by just breaking them up into properly "post sized" nuggets.

;-)
HSF

Biofeedback for meditation is already a reality... for decades now.

My brain machine has the ability to sync with a variety of biofeedback devices. Most of them use Galvanic Skin Response, but you can find full on EEG setups... and even more esoteric monitoring devices.

Back in the 80's already I used to play at a place called the Mind Gym (attached to a flotation center) where they had pretty advanced (for the 80's) biofeedback setups. There are even toys you can buy that used GSR and actually worked rather well for training your mind over body control. (Very useful in getting into SP)

This toy came immediately to mind. http://www.amazon.com/St...ce-Trainer/dp/B001UZHASY (I would buy one now, but I am sure I saw one somewhere else on sale for less than $20, so you might wanna check out the usual suspects... ebay, craigslist etc.)

There is also Mindwave Mobile and Mindflex... as far as "toy" biofeedback devices go. Some of them claim to monitor brainwaves, but you would have to check the specs to see what exact monitoring systems they have. At any rate, they are all fun and cheap. I even saw one at a thrift shop once.

For basic feedback, and monitoring meditative and altered states, even the most basic biofeedback is useful. Try EMG, EDG, PPG, HEG... and of course EEG. Hell, why not even try an ECG?

a lot of topics in this thread reminds me of the book "enter the void" by zoe7.


he uses brain technology with different substances to induce OBEs, including those in this world as well as parallel/alternate realities with methods to discern which one you're in.


it's a really interesting read, although i haven't had the opportunity to try the different techniques. i plan to next year. for now just having a lucid dream is proving difficult for me.

You know if I buy that thing I'm going to take it apart and

a) Make a bong.
b) Find away to hook it up to a computer and make it more programmable

But holy shit I'm still impressed it actually exists!



I have seen a few of these out there. I'm looking for something that I can easily hack into and program myself. Certainly these fit the bill on the hacking front, but I worry that the EEG helmet itself isn't really so hot...



I have in fact looked at a few of those as well. Honestly though I think working with EEG is going to be the most direct route. Increase theta/delta waves and I'm pretty sure heart rate, respiratory rate and galvanic skin response are all going to drop in sync... though I could be wrong!

The thing is I actually don't mind spending a fair amount (if I have to) to get something that will really work and that can be extendable... I don't mind writing my own device driver to hack into the thing either...in fact whatever I get I'm almost certainly going to do that anyway... unless of course there is one that comes complete with say a python programable interface!

Thanks Hyperspace fool. Found one that fits my bill HERE

From the product description... it looks like I can program this thing myself!



Purchasing this now.

SCRATCH that. Developer tools are windows only



I simply do not do Windows for any reason what so ever. DAMN IT.

I know the base unit works on OSX, but it's the research programmable module that I really wanted. Just damn it all to hell. So excited to just be dropped on the cold hard ground of windows. bleh..

Peace