I love the way David Icke seems to think those in power "know" and intentionally suppress us. The thought of someone like George w bush or David Cameron being aware of much seems laughable to me. If anything is suppressing our spiritual awareness it is ignorance and greed.

As for the DMT experience being real or not. What is real? Is an experience only real if shared? I experienced my DMT therefore it was real for me. Did I go somewhere that existed? Do dreams exist? Seems to me that if dreams exist then my DMT experience exists. But I do not believe this is a physical existence rather an internal one part of my being brought into existence for a brief moment by my experiencing it.

Much love and respect.

if that is the case, then consensus reality is all in your head.

who is to say the reality generated by serotonin is more legitimate than the reality generated by dimethyltryptamine. the ONLY difference is you are accustomed to reality generated by serotonin. what makes that molecule more "real" than DMT?


primacy of matter is JUST as big a fallacy as primacy of consciousness.

also, defining "Real" is hardly semantics.

how can you label something as real, if you have no F-ing clue what "real" is??

As for the semantics, it's always important to keep in mind. English is a complex language, and in the case of "real" and "reality" - people use these terms in starkly different ways. When one person says the word they can mean one thing, and when another uses the word they can mean it another way. Ideally we would have a single word for each connotation, but we don't, so it's important to be mindful that when we use the word, that everyone is on the same page.

If you feel that you are being reacted harshly to, this is to be expected when someone comes and makes some definitive claim about something with which they are entirely inexperienced. Whatever you read or hear about DMT - whatever words you interpret about the DMT experience - is nothing much at all like the experience itself. Nothing can prepare you for what the experience is like. Having said that, there are still many here who after having done DMT many times, still believe as you do, that the experience is generated in the brain, and that's fine. As with so many things in life, I think it's incorrect to view this concept of reality as binary (i.e. something is either real or not real). I feel that any experience including that of consensual reality is composed of both real and "not real" elements simultaneously. There is at the same time the objective stimulus of consensual reality, but your perception is the brain's filtering and electrochemical processing which can be quite prone to error. I'm going to PM you my article on "The Reality of DMT" which will be in the Nexus e-zine (if it were ever to come out). I don't seek to necessarily convince you of one way or the other, as it is based on my own personal experiences which paint a pretty clear picture to me, but everyone's different, and everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I simply wish to demonstrate why I feel the way I do about my own experiences.

For thousands of years some of the worlds greatest minds have pondered over the nature of reality and the manner in which we experience life. If all was needed was logic and reason we would already know the answer. We have sent men to touch foot on the moon that can be done with logic and reason. How our "soul or spirit" is cannot be explained. If you mapped out all the brains processes down to pure chemistry many people would still believe there was more. Just as many people believe in gods and demons.

Anybody who says they know the answer is wrong as no one does. More to the point we probably never will.

My advise would be to enjoy what we have, a bit of mystery makes life more interesting. If you experience something that enriches your life does that have to be real to be meaningful or can it mean just as much if it was all just a part of your imagination triggered by chemical changes in your brain brought on by vaporising DMT.

DMT is everything and nothing try some and see where it "takes" you. Beats reading trip reports about machine elves.

I knew this thread was gonna get heated .
I suggest you can't have a workable theory about
Something you have no direct experience with especially
Something like dmt that is all about direct experience .
You can't even begin to understand this stuff until you've
Seen it for yourself . It really is that kind of thing , no really it is .
I've had so many theories I've lost count . The old it's just generated
By the mind theory went out the window a long time ago . It's way more complex
Than that .

I'm in the 'its all in your brain' camp..... but what our brains are actually capable of is very much a mystery.

Look at the likes of Daniel Tammet, who has color form synesthesia and do incredible mathematical feats by reading the patterns in his vision.

The collective conscious & memory. So much power in the subconscious, we can't even comprehend. Hence when the veil is lifted slightly by dmt we get overwhelmed beyond words.

You assume that there is a body to leave. You also assume there is a “you” – a self.

It’s possible that our everyday reality is as “real” as dreams or drug-induced visions.
There is no way to know if this is the case or not.

If there is no body to begin with, then what are you leaving during a DMT experience?
If there is no “you”, then who’s doing the leaving?

I agree 100%. But i also think it is only healthy to make theories based on what you know before delving into these sort of things. For the Psychonaut-to-be it serves as a good cornerstone to figure out why you are diving into these realms of perception in the first place.

A skeptical mind going into the dmt experience is way more valuable IMHO than some religious believer that takes everything in reach to validate their pre-set religious beliefs. (ofcourse this is also true for die-hard atheists or anyone that thinks he/she has nothing to learn)

With that said, i'd like to respond to the OP's theory




And I do not agree with the theory. First of all we are more than just neurocircuits in my not so humble opinion.

I suspect that memories for examples are more likely experienced from the cell body, or the DNA. If you believe insects, elves (,reptiles) are archetypes of the human mind. Where else do we store these archetypal memories other than our own DNA?

This broadens the playfield a little bit because DNA is not limited to the brain. The brain for example can make alterations in DNA. And vice versa.

I think ultimately the body is able to do this because of protein interaction. It is a key factor in exchanging information from the animal/plant world into the dna world. Ulti-ultimately, our own bodies are the responsive expression of our genes. Roughly based (Or exactly... i really am not sure, i haven't finished school) by the intake of chemicals in food from the outside world. You see where i am going here?

I ask because i am a little lost myself. If the above is true. Endogenous DMT plays a role in shaping our brain and nervous system. If the brain and nervous system are needed for sensing the outside world it means that dmt plays a role in perceiving the outside world. It's only a small step here to suggest it may reveal another world different from the one we wake up to every day.

Just to expand a little more on my own theory. DMT is a possible regulator of the sigma-1 receptor in the brain. The sigma-1 receptor is often reported to engage in modulating NMDA-type receptors. This receptor is the main target of ketamine. A drug that is notorious for inducing out of body experiences. It is an effective painkiller, probably because of this reason. It helps to divert consciousness away from the body and collapse into itself. If that is not enough, this receptor is also crucial for storing long term memories.

Why the focus on memory? Because it is the only thing that we talk about in the physical world that is located and extracted from the mind and not the physical world. In other words, the memory is self-evidently located outside the human body.



I think this article has been posted on the nexus before. "The case against the machine elves". I'm sure you can find the thread somewhere. I will comment a bit on the clips from the spirit molecule.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXY_1WZx4p4

James kent seems to mention that "If the experience is authentic, their should be some way to detect the experience other than using a biological brain". This starts off with an assumption that the experience has to be based in the physical realm in the first place. Other than that. He says that "Technology should be able to detect it." Well.. Our current technology allows us to see tiny molecules as tiny representations of light. This is using an INDIRECT measurement. This is as far as technology has gotten us by now. Which is pretty far out, if you ask me. But we can't exactly see inside the atoms yet. And what is DMT fundementally but a few atoms arranged in a particular order?

I do not want to bash on James Kent too much. His ideas are relevant and rational. I like it a lot when someone has the guts to go in against the status quo. I respect that a lot. Except he starts off with prepositions, and if you start analyzing anything with presupposed assumptions you can't really expect to grasp the full picture.

I also want to quote and repond to james ; "If you are sober and your in the room with somebody on DMT who sees spirits, there should be some way for the sober person to sense that there are spirits"

I have one personal anecdote that goes into that a little bit. Except, i wasn't sober. It was 3-4 hours after i ate some mushrooms. The thing is, i wasn't feeling any sort of effect that one would expect from taking a hallucinogen. The dose was mild. It is only when a friend of mine started saying she was having images in her head when i arrogantly thought. "Yeah, okay. I'm not sure if i believe you". As i looked up the ceiling i saw a clear image of a divine womanly spirit. And it gave me an assuring feeling that my friend was indeed having visions and it did give off an energy vibe that there are indeed spirits present in the room with us.

I believe our brains are fundementally linked together. Shared hallucinations are rare but more common than you might think. It makes me think of expireriments done where they measure brain activity in two people in isolation. They show them a monitor where nothing happens but a light flash occurs every 2 minute. When they measure both of the people's brains, both show activity in the brain that corresponds exactly to the intensity of the light flash. I can't find the actual papers right now but this is a clear cut piece of evidence that we are somehow linked together. I believe that dreams have the ability to be shared experience as well.



These feelings and vibes that i am getting are the most important thing that goes on when enduring psychedelic experiences. This is what i'm in for. All these neat little theories i am making go straight out the window when i smoke some DMT.

It is fun to speculate with a sober mind. But i always realize in the heat of a psychedelic peak that all this is just a game and nothing of it really matters. The experience shows or at least lifts the curtain a little bit on the illusion we call reality. Any sort of view on reality based on the material knowledge is only getting a small part of the actual experience in life.

And every single time i realize.. It does not even matter how you think of it. What truly matters is how you live life and how you experience it. That is the most important thing to consider i think, Experience and love.

Namaste,

pechenek, imagine yourself loosing your ego bounderies, and well.. having a typical breakthru experience where you experience the infinite\universe\god\oneness.. actually, let me rephrase. The experience gives you the perspective of being the infinite\universe\god\oneness, you are It.

And now you gradually fade to this reality or plane of existence, you came from a "place" where you "saw" many things and you "did" many things, and you even "learned" many things too!

Is it really so different and does it really matter in the end, if you could voyage for REAL with a spacecraft or whatever thru the mysteries of the universe in a external travel, looking for god eventually, and perhaps with all the infinite mysteries resolved, being next to the infinite\universe\god\oneness, OR to create the infinite\universe\god\oneness in your head? If you create It you are It.

In my book, everything is real OR nothing is real. Eather way, it doesn't really matter cause you experienced no-duality. Why do we discuss it? Well we live precisely in and with a dualistic nature, that is, we are still human.

Also, the dmt experience (actually, ayahuasca) gave me what no REAL thing could ever give me. It gave me much much more than I ever dreamed to ask. So in my daily life it has a real effect, even if the visions were not real.. does it really matter?! It is like, wow I made bungeejumping and it changed my daily life, and wow I made dmt and it changed my daily life.

I concur with Infectedstyle, especially this part :
"It is fun to speculate with a sober mind. But i always realize in the heat of a psychedelic peak that all this is just a game and nothing of it really matters."


"I don't believe in believe" Terence McKenna

Not to sidetrack too much from the discussion: I find Castaneda's idea of the Assemblage Point useful in pondering the nature of perception, as 'Don Jaun' stated "We are perceiving beings". This is best understood in the terms of the position of the assemblage point.

The idea is that substances, behaviours, emotions and thought patterns all influence the position of the A.P, which also alters the mode of perception. Like the tuning dial on a radio, the AP position tunes perception to different 'bands' of 'reality'.

Thus, I venture that the movement of the point of perception induced by the molecule is so dramatic that one momentarily escapes the confines of Plato's Cave.

Peace

well it seems the OP has come up with a theory , now what

i don't understand what is the point of this thread ? if the OP has come up with a theory , so be it , afterall the OP knows nothing about the experience and all about theory

well dear OP just create as many theories as possible , i don't really care what your views on this are , just do what you like , who gives a $#!~ about what you have to say or whatever is up with kent , good for him

all i know is DMT is really awesome and i choose the experience over your/or kent's theory

nobody cares man , i know it can be heart breaking , but you'll get over this , don't worry be happy

i don't see a problem with sharing a theory on this forum.

i suppose you guys have seen these kind of posts by the tenfolds and i can see how it can get a little annoying.

but..

i woulden't venture into any drug without doing my research first. not everyone is used to living on the edge. and taking in one of the most powerful hallucinogens in the world, extracted in freebase/salt form.. that is some edgy stuff. for sure.

and Jin, if you really don't care.. why do you reply?

just something to think about, really...

I don't want to be a dick but it is just a discussion. it doesn't have to get so personal, it doesn't look like the OP ever meant to be judgemental (except perhaps that hasty comment about confusion, that could hit some snares).

It is maybe just a tad arrogant to assume that one knows better than people on a forum who have actually delved in the deep end. but again, i never got that vibe from the OP.

He seems like a reasonable dude. Reminds me of my skepticism diving into realms i had no idea of..

Less related :


Perhaps they can be activated when you decide to smoke DMT in a dream.. just a thought.
Nobody ever scientifically looked at it this way, so the possibility is open.

I see it like this.....

Our brains are a complex computer. Very complex. They process information. The information that goes into the computer via our senses can all be measured, explained and quantified using modern science.

What our brains do with that information can be very strange indeed. So throughout our evolution to become the most advanced beings on the planet, our brain chemistry has made a filter of sorts so that everyday consciousness is not clouded with pretty colours and dragons and fear or laughter and racing thoughts etc.. So when we take a substance under the heading of an hallucinogen these filters get bigger holes letting our minds do crazy things with the information it is currently processing and with information it has stored. This can be very strange indeed. Just as our dreams can be. Also as our own conscious thoughts and imagination can be.very strange too.. People talk of entities and rooms and cartoon characters etc.. If I close my eyes now I can visualise all of these and make them change colour, shape even from a room to an entity.. Crazy isn't it.. I've had no.drugs today! But I'm controlling that as my filters are in place and I'm in control. I'm just using information that's either already there or fresh information that I'm currently processing.. With the filters open up a little, I don't control what my conscious mind sees as much. Huxley calls this mind at large...

When an amount of a drug is taken and total disassociation with the body is experienced (I've had this many times with LSD, mushrooms and ketamine) the filters are dropped and mind at large is totally let go upon consciousness.. It can be great and horrid and both at the same time.. Also something different that you've never felt before in consciousness..

Working this all out from a young age helped me let go with very strong experiences and just sit back and watch my mind unfold....

Now I'm not saying I only see the scientific route, but it makes a lot of sence to me..

I heard today that life on mars a few million years ago was really quite probable.. For me that opens up the scientific possibility that mars people came to earth and gave monkey DNA the power to produce a filter to help develop modern human consciousness, and the ability to hybridise mars people with monkey people as a self preservation attempt as mars atmosphere was on its way out... Hence the entities that often are in our trips... Maybe DMT containing plants were put in our way as martians time was running out so we could continue the work developing telepathic communication...
Or quite easily not... lol..

So all these are far more scientifically possible than leaving your body.... IMO...

Its all in your mind.. I can almost guarantee it.. I've spent a lot of time deep inside mine. Whether it be drugged or simply in contemplation and imagination. But its wonderful and varied in there.. I've experienced telepathic communication, yet I only believe this to be possible with being in the same room and being able see facial and body movements of someone you know well..

I struggle with the science of how this can be anything other than mind at large. But that is my opinion!

I've seen people have bad trips and be totally scared by what they've seen or heard on psychedelics. The problem they all seem to have is a belief that it could be real! Same people believe god is possible and can control things or actual make planets and people.... For me a scientific approach and understanding has made for a more reliably pleasant experience than for most people who accept the possibility of other explanations than science..

Just my opinion

Happy times folks..

Peace
BL

ok time for some reflection i guess



ok i guess it does'nt have to get personal , perhaps i did come as somewhat arrogant
i suppose sharing a theory on this forum is ok , i need not be so offended and aggressive



perhaps its this statement that is somewhat what ....... the thing that ..... ........anyways continuing forward how come its the OP's theory if james kent is saying the same thing , isn't it kent's theory ?

yet i guess we must move past all this ............

truth be told i perhaps need not be a dick either , its a little silly on my part to come up with all $#!~ , i guess i have some inner work to do now , higher levels of acceptance are required

yet about the theory and all that i guess i am not in very much agreement with what the OP has to say , i believe experience is higher truth than anyone can come up with in a sense the only truth is the experience as there is nothing else anyways , all of what life is .....is an experience , the experience of joy is joy , the experience of pain is pain ,

the experience is the only truth applicable as the experience is as real as it gets , you can make a theory of joy , or perhaps you can experience joy , which is the truth , is truth a theory or is it the experience

say what if a person could be explained what life is without needing to experience it , as extensive theories about life could be read to the person , he could be told what life is ........yet the real thing to do is to experience life

no need to tell the blind man what sight is ......i say give him eyes so he can see for himself ,

no description does it , no theory does ,
the experience is itself the truth that speaks to the heart ,
it is the difference between faith and knowing
it is the very foundation of the real
its the very core of understanding

without this without the experience all we would have are theory's , the experience is what lets us know what it is , the experience of joy lets us know what joy is , the experience of life lets us know what life is and the experience of DMT lets us know in our own way what it is .....no matter i don't really know what DMT or anything is yet i'll take my chances with the experience rather than theory


also apolgies for the hostile attitude , i must learn how to communicate more politely also i guess its time for me to do my inner work with the molecule to learn more and transcend this hostile force within me .......

peace everyone

edit :


also this somehow i guess provoked some hostility in me aswell yet inner work to do now , time to move past and transcend into beauty

peace everyone

I carry both copies of the rs2494732 genotype, I know this thanks to 23andme. Because of this, I am 7 times more likely to develop cannabis induced psychosis than someone who doesn't carry this gene.

A Risk Gene for Cannabis Psychosis

Confirmation that the AKT1 (rs2494732) Genotype Influences the Risk of Psychosis in Cannabis Users

This is the main reason why I won't take DMT. That still doesn't change the fact that I am legitimately interested in what's going on here when someone smokes DMT.



In many DMT trips, there are reports of having the perception of exiting the top of the head. Some associate this with the crown chakra.

You seem to be relating dreaming to the DMT experience quite a bit. They are just as different as dogs from cats. Also I would like to add:

Kent's recollection of the DMT experience seems to me premature. I have read other reports by less significant people that claimed no spiritual nature to DMT and just crazy things going on that could not possibly be of any real significance. I have found that many people's first few times (or more) come off as nothing but a bunch of visuals of things that makes no sense. My first few felt like just visuals. I didn't have any spiritual experiences until I dove deeper. From my experience it can take time before you can interpret what is going on. When that starts happening the experience is much different.

Like many have said already, simply reading someone's experience without having experienced it yourself, you cannot comprehend the strength of the experience nor what they experienced at all. The same goes for someone who hasn't broke through and hasn't gone above the 20mg reading an experience of someone who took 50mg.

I had no idea. Now I know. I don't theorize much anymore since seeing how deep the rabbit hole can go, and it can go farther even. The complexity that I have witnessed tells me your theory has many holes. But what do I know. Nothing. And either do you.

Simply put. This is no different then theorizing whether or not there is a god.

DMT is as real as it gets
It has to be yah know it's everywhere.
I really consider it to be the spirit molecule.

The native Americans thought that dreams were real and that they could travel to different parts of the word fly ect. They spent a lot of time teaching there childern about how to interpret them and incorporate that into life. Why would DMT be more real than that. What does it matter if you have really gone anywhere. For me it is all about the experiance itself and using that experience to better yourself.

DMT can be a mystical experience as can having a moment of insight I don't believe you have to go anywhere for this to be valid.

Creating a life can be explained with cellular division eggs and sperm but that does not make it any less magical.

I do not think there needs to be the concept of leaving the body from the crown chakra to have an ego-shattering experience. but in my EXPERIENCE, it is the crown chakra that leads to ascension and astral vision. This does not mean leaving the body, the soul is made aware of both the body and electric. But, i am sure the electric can sometimes override the bodily sensations completely. No doubt.



Not sure if anyone is still in for a discussion but i thought this raises an interesting problem, I think this is a legitimate problem and i have often wondered this myself.

Why does the experience represent itself to Mr. Kent in such a way?
The experience of dmt has a way to put into methaphor and slowly teach the user
The sober ego has a way of making it's own stories around the metaphor and completely miss the point of what is shown.

To my mind, the "rubber room, pocket universe" is a metaphor for a greater reality. This is where salvia forces the user and it is a craaazzyyy experience. for me it was a breathing excercise and i think the cartoon characters are there for kent to reassure him it is okay. for me, i get a stern teacher without a face that simply teaches me.




Prechenek, you can not believe or understand where dmt takes me... It is farrrr from dreaming i'm being chased by a fucking bear. Matter of factly, i HARDLY get any visions whatsoever. It is emotion and understanding that is imparted into my consciousness. Indeed, it shows me the depths of my subconscious and neural activity that i am normally unaware of. True. But it also shows the deepest corner of my soul, future and grounds my purpose in life. It shows me things i could not have possibly have known.

It had suprised me in ways. It seems to know my future. It is first contact with alien beings. It is a direct understanding of ancient buddhist/chinese/hindu, generally eastern philosophy. On the other side of the fence it shows me the world that Shamans of the amazon visit in their spiritual quests. It gives me glimpses into the rich world of ancient egyptian mythology. Heck, it brings me closer to jesus for crying out loud.

You can not expect to have a clue about this. I researched dmt for more than 5 years before finally deciding to delve into it. BOY.. Was i in for a suprise. It was COMPLETELY and UTTERLY different from what i thought it was. I've spend countless nights reading theories and trip reports and listening to podcasts. And it helped to cope with the trauma that is dmt. Dare i say it even prepared me for it.

But it is only after i smoked dmt that i realized, what i really should have done all this time is pick up a spiritual practice, look for a legitimate teacher and do some yoga/thai chi to cleanse my polluted soul.

If all this all sounds scary to you, then maybe dmt is just not for you. Or you are just not ready yet. The brain has a way to filter information we can not cope with. But i tell you, it is intense. And this is coming from someone who hasn't even been too far out with dmt. Heck, do i know what all these other people are raving about. I shudder at the thought of more intense experience than i have had myself. Glimpses, that is what i base my views on at this point.

P.S

Btw, OP. Thanks for the links to "cannabis psychosis gene". I did not know there is such a thing and it is interesting to know. If you want my opinion, would it be worth a thing. There is nothing to worry about considering psychosis. So long as you find a legitimate spiritual teacher.

I dare say this with caution, a psychosis is a big deal one that is horrifying to experience and utter torture on the human mind. I am just simply of the opinion that with proper care and guidance, dmt can help relieve these horrifying symptoms of psychosis. It has or should i say IS still helping me, in my mild delusions.

Here's the problem with James Kent's argument. It's sort of akin to some of those kids who smoke low doses of salvia (or high doses of salvia improperly) and then think that 'it's like weed, but a bit weirder' whereas if they had gotten more Salvinorin A in their system, their eyes could have been open and they wouldn't know they were in the same room as anyone else or their name, or what they just smoked, etc...There's such a range to the spectrum, so for one person to take it and report that it wasn't spiritual for him because he happened to get the cartoon characters, and therefore it's not spiritual in nature to others - that is to say that others have this blanket experience along with Kent. If we want to be logical, that logic simply doesn't follow.

It's ironic that he mentions it not being like sitting in the Taj Mahal because I've had experiences that it was like that's pretty much where I was with all the Hindu architecture, interweaving tapestries, etc...Though it hasn't happened to me specifically, there are a number of members here who have reported encounters with the Hindu deities Ganesha and Shiva (you can run a search) though I've encountered my own set of cultural deities. Had Kent encountered Shiva on his first encounter, I don't think we'd be having this discussion right now...