I’ve read in several places that shamans sometimes make ayahuasca with just caapi and herbs containing tropane alkaloids. This type of ayahuasca is said to be purgeless. I know that microdoses of tropane alkaloids (50-150 micrograms or so) like scopolamine and hyoscyamine prevent nausea very effectively while at the same time enhancing the effects of most psychedelics. Such doses on their own are completely safe and without mental effect.

SWIM has used 2 Datura stramonium seeds to completely block the nausea from 100 mg of oral bufotenine which always causes nausea without the seeds. SWIM has also used 3 Datura stramonium seeds to potentiate the effects of 74 mg of mescaline which produced the most euphoric experience of SWIM’s life. He was very impressed by that combination. So now he’s curious about purgeless ayahuasca made with herbs containing tropane alkaloids.

Does anyone have a recipe commonly used by shamans for this type of ayahuasca made with caapi, some sort of tropane containing herb, and no DMT containing herbs?

Also, has anyone ever tried this type of ayahuasca?

What is your goal? Pure harmala alkaloids and pure DMT makes a "purgeless ayahuasca" if all you want to do is trip and not puke. Even if you want specifically THH/harmine effects without DMT, I'd think that an extraction would be the way to go, though you may still need a bit of tropane alkaloids depending on the dose.

Am I completely misinterpreting, or are you talking about not doing a proper extraction for some reason?

"Such doses on their own are completely safe and without mental effect."

Is there any change in mental effect when taken to potentiate mescaline? About how much is it potentiated?

I love the idea 69ron!

We know so little about the plants compared to the Shamans do!

It's all about knowing how to work with the botanicals properly!

I'm pretty sure that what he's after is an ayahuasca that could be taken casually on any given day to sort of brighten up the day, along the lines of tea or coffee, perhaps. SWIM has no input on this, though.

the brugmansia alks are for some people but not for all. SWIM has a very low blood pressure/ sugar and the datura alks really slow swims heart rate down (<50 bpm resting). That feeling made the peruvian shaman's brew (chali, chakruna, cappi, brugmansia + other undiscloseds) feel more empty for SWIM as i believe a moving heart rate is required for a strong and visual experience.

edit: upon surface research, datura raises blood pressure? maybe my above post is incorrect. could have been the other items in the admixture.

edit: another oops, it was brugmansia not datura. though they do have a similar alk profile.

Ayahuasca should NOT be used like that! I don't think that is 69ron's intentions but I could be wrong...

I'm using the word casual very loosely. I'm referring to merging one's life with it, rather than reserving it for rolling around in one's vomit in the dark. I could be mistaken about his intentions, but if he's talking about a non-psychedelic brew without purging, he could be referring to that. There's far more to ayahuasca than tradition, why should it be bound in such a way? Shaman's once used it in far more ways than they do now; they used to be wild men and warriors, now there's often little to distinguish them from priests and therapists.

I'm honestly more interesting in gathering the knowledge of it than anything else. I have a ton of books on psychoactive plants used by Native Americans for spiritual purposes, and none of them talk in detail about purgeless ayahuasca. They gloss over it as if its not important and then go on about how important the purge is to many who take ayahuasca religiously. The purge is seen as a cleansing of the body and soul and so it’s often desired.

I know that taking purified harmine, THH, or harmaline in the right doses with DMT will produce a purgeless experience that mimics ayahuasca. I think most of us know about that. But that’s a different kind of ayahuasca because its based of harmala alkaloids and DMT, not caapi and tropane alkaloid containing plants.

I’m interested in the topic of ayahuasca specifically made with caapi and tropane alkaloid containing plants. This exists and there is such little information about how it’s prepared.

I’ve read many times that tropane alkaloids (atropine, hyoscyamine, and scopolamine) potentiate the effects of harmala alkaloids (THH, harmine, and harmaline). Because there exists ayahuasca made solely with caapi and tropane alkaloid containing plants, there must be something to this combination that some shamans have found useful.

The information for the recipes used for this different class of ayahuasca seems to be almost impossible to find. I’ve searched and searched and found nothing. Most caapi recipes I’ve found detailed are DMT based, and might have a touch of tropane alkaloid containing plants for an added kick (or to block the nausea), but still, that’s a different class of ayahuasca because it is DMT centric ayahuasca.

Were the natives using enough tropane containing plants to cause delirium in the ayahuasca? My feeling is NO. My feeling is that they were adding microdoses of tropane alkaloids and that these ayahuasca brews were primarily caapi.

Does anyone know anything about this class of DMT-less ayahuasca?

oops said datura in my above post, but my friend corrected me and it was brugmansia. that could be another consideration for tropane alks. According to him, the brew was purgeless without any urge to vomit.

I do know that there are curranderos that work primarily with brugmansia and other tropane containing plants. They are, from what I understand, few and far between.

You might be right, 69ron, about the use of tropane plants to potentiate the effects of the caapi vine. Caapi IS seen as a Master Teacher Plant and one of the best healing plants...although I do believe that brugmansia is also concidered a Master Teaching Plant...

That's really about all I konw about this. Have you asked over at the Aya forum? They have many members that live in S. America and are either curranderos themselves, or work directly with one.

Oh and Ayahuasca, espically the caapi brew itself, can and is taken on a daily basis for healing of different aliments. It is not always a highly visonairy experience.

Many people use microdoses of caapi as an antidepressant. I have done this myself, although I did not add any admixture plants, it was only Caapi and unreduced at that. Unreduced Caapi actually tastes really good.

for me, the caapi causes the nausea and purge, maybe there is something in the tropane alks that counter the feeling like the datura seeds do. Just a thought, as I am throwing shit on the wall and seeing what sticks at this point. I do not get it from harmine or harmala or THH or rue tea or DMT by itself, only caapi.

The only other time I purged was from a rather large dose of pure mescaline. Was at a dead show and got some from a chick. She warned me that it was rather large and I should split it with someone as I will probably puke. I thought to myself, no way, as I seldom get an upset stomach, well about 45 minutes later, it all came on, and was probably the most pleasant purge I have ever had. After one outburst, the nausea was gone and had one of the best visionary/ trip experiences I have ever had.

SWIM made a pharma mix of thh and harmaline and harmine..with three datura s. seeds and still had the purge...but there was no nausea...still the purge though

SWIM does get nausea even with pure harmalas and dmt...

As for native recipe for purgeless ayahuasca, next time im in contact with one of them I will ask

Even if small doses of datura are safe, I personally just wouldnt take it.. scares the hell out of me

Usually takes a while, at least 2-3 hours after drinking the tea. I use between 25 and 35 grams of vine for the tea.

Harmala's / the rue tea's I use 3-4 grams of seed or just buy the extract over the internet and have never ever had a problem at all. if xtract usually around 200 mg.

I will say this though 3-5 datura seeds with the caapi brew and I get no purge / nausea feeling at all. Thanks 69ron for that little tip. I also weigh 215 and 6ft tall.

How can you have purge without nausea, does it just come on all at once, purge and done? To me nausea causes the purge.

its weird...its just kinda like.. "i need to puke" and SWIM walked outside and purged a few times and then was done...and felt even better than he did before...but there wasnt any nausea...he just knew he was going to puke so he went outside and did it...very strange indeed!

I never had to puke with caapi, but always with rue. I get a slightly drunken sort of coördination sometimes, but it's not bothering in any way. I always take aya on an empty stomach. Maybe eating something before is not such a good thing, but on the other hand it might be just different for each person. I never have any sort of motion sickness, no matter in what condition i am.

I have the same with aya. No nausea but suddenly a heavy urge to purge, it's like your body is saying "alright, I had enough of it, let's move!".

SWIM's last aya (pharma really) session included two datura s. seeds to test out the anti nausea properties that he's read about. Well, in conclusion it didn't stop the purge. In fact, it was some of the deepest purging yet, and he was glad for it really, as the purge is really purifying for him sometimes. Also, it's like you say: there really isn't any nausea, it's just time to purge.

I'll bet a few more seeds will block the purge altogether.