there not necessarily conscious but they are consciousness

Ah ok i get it now

To prove physical reality mm. If i was sitting in a room with a blindfold on and my friend had 2 room temperature stones and they sat one of the stones in the sun for a while then brought both stones into the room and touched me with both stones and i can tell which stone has been out in the sun isn't that proof of physical reality?

I would say what you have for your case is "evidence" not proof. There is evidence for the primacy of matter and there is evidence for the primacy of consciousness, but neither can be conclusively proven because it will always require you to make an assumption that can not be proven.

no

I'am obviously totally disconnected from reality then

your not disconnected from reality, you are reality

I understand that but surely we need to draw a line and say yes we are consciouss and yes we can touch things so therefore consciousness and physical reality are proof of us being alive? To put it slightly differently. These facts must prove something.

Oh i'm assuming again doh!

You've demonstrated that you're alive, your neurons work and that reality is a stable and fairly predictable place, and that's great...but it doesn't prove anything about the primacy of matter.

A rock hitting me on the head is all the proof i need

Then be content with that I suppose.

yeah i feel the same on this - it think its fairly logical that the physical processes of the brain are only an indication of a relationship with consciousness (particularly "self aware" consciousness), rather than an "either or" conclusion of the source of consciousness. As Gibran so well pointed out, there is no way of getting behind consciousness - and any "truth" requires an observer for its understanding and contemplation..and this is the huge gaping hole in the material arguement that I am intrigued is not given more consideration by people such as James Kent..

our whole understanding of the world around us, is perpetuated by this observing force. We can not just step out of it like a suit of clothes to double check its reality status.. we don't even know that there is anything to step out on in the first place.. the only thing that can shape our understanding of reality is the experience we are having.. even learning a "fact" from a book or scientific study is an experience...

I think the one big thing that stops people being able to get to grips with the whole idea of consciousness running the show, is a very strong tendency to think very linearly.. this is an important aspect of human consciousness that makes it what it is... for better and worse... but it certainly creates boundaries at times .. which likely dont exist

Another way to sell books is to play on peoples lack of belief, just ask John Lamb Lash if you don't believe me.


I prefer Clark Kent to James Kent. To me Clark is a far more believable character.

Everyday experience is unrelentingly convincingly “real”, but that doesn’t prove it’s real.

How do you know - how can you prove - that you're not dreaming all of this?

Is anything that happens or that you can experience in a dream proof that the dream is an independent physical reality? (Or not?)

Also, I don’t believe there is such a thing as human consciousness. There is consciousness, and it can express itself -- reveal itself to itself – via a human organism, but consciousness expressing itself as a human is not the same thing as human consciousness.

Consciousness is not exclusive to human beings and who knows (or could indeed ever know) if the consciousness we think of as human is/was/will be capable of existing in other forms (or in a between form state).

I'll stick to my thinking that consciousness (or some form of) does indeed run the show, that we are a shell or layer of that consciousness and much like physical evolution, I have no doubt that consciousness evolves (perhaps to a point where it requires new physical form in order to continue to grow/learn/experience).

Who knows, maybe the consciousness of dinosaurs (and other pre human forms of life) were in fact us (or the consciousness that drives human beings) in other forms.

Kinda reminds me of this


(forgive the 5 second hulu intro, it's worth contemplating this video (I feel) regardless of the source of the info).

Arn"t we just a bunch of meat-encased high end pocket calculators? You feed information into us through our sensory interfaces and we make calculations and come up with different versions of awareness, dependant on how our internal operating systems have developed over the years. And some of us have calculated that there might be an exterior consciousness (perhaps due to uprating our oS with psychedelic addons).
I think the possibility of an enveloping consciousness and the birth/eat/shit/screw/die/rot scenarios are both equal in validity.

dreaming myself getting hit in the head with a rock is all the proof i need.

Replace the word consciousness in Gibran's theory with awareness and I think you arrive pretty close to my personal view on it.

I view consciousness as just a highly refined awareness (sorta), but since I can observe my awareness ebb and flow on it's on I have to end up at the conclusion that awareness, and not consciousness, is the root of all things. Now that in no way implies one way or the other about consciousness continuing after this human incarnation....but I think even if our consciousness (in some capacity) survies death there will still be an awareness that can observe the consciousness.

Human consciousness is the only consciousness that we know of though. No one knows if animals are conscious in the sense that they are self aware. Maybe they are just biological computers going about their predetermined business.

Making a jump that consciousness is some sort of frequency that we and other life forms tune into is a theorem, it has no basis in reality it is an idea. Falling over and hitting your head and hurting yourself is as real as life is going to get imo. Imo there is no argument.
I'm not saying that consciousness isn't out there and that we aren't tuned into it but it's like God, i have no reason to believe or entertain it as there is no proof. I like the idea etc but.....

When you wake up though you then realise that you were dreaming and a rock didn't really hit your head and you have no physical scar.

This is real.

I'm not knocking any of these ideas. I believe that matter exists in many forms. We ezperience this life within the vibration that we are atuned too and the matter is resonating with us which means we can touch it etc. but i also believe that when i see entities co-existing on a dmt trip with my eyes open in this reality that they are made of matter also but they are on a different frequency dimension. I can't physically grab the entity as i don't know how to tune into it's vibration. The entity may have the tools to tune into my vibrtation though. It's all real but while we sit here typing on our keyboards then matter is certainly real. Imo