Make sure you distinguish the huge difference between illegal drugs, like cocaine, heroin, meth, and stuff like this from the more sacred ones like mushrooms and cannabis IMO. The misuse of either will be terrible, but the ignorance of the separation is also terrible. When they are old enough, you can teach them that it is not a good idea, in general, to use drugs. This is true, it is a risky business. But if one does choose to expirement do so responsibly, and if you are not sure what that means, give me a call and tell me your plan, I just want what's best for you.

I love this.

Anyway, I think if I have kids I would most likely wait until they start talking about drugs (in any context) before saying anything at all. And when I did start talking to them about drugs, I would be certain to make a clear distinction between the "hard" drugs (coke, meth, heroin, pills, etc.) and psychedelics. Weed is such a common thing now that I believe that info goes without saying. Not to say I wouldn't talk about it myself though.

But I wouldn't openly condone the use of anything. Like someone else said, I think that could lead to careless misuse.

This is a complicated issue though. The way it happens is so different for each person that one answer can't truly answer all. It depends on the personality of your child and their reasoning, habits, etc. as well as the environment your child is in.

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Edit: I have to add more to this.

I would definitely NEVER lie to my child about drugs. I'm sure you can all agree with me there. Not only is it just wrong, but it could also lead to resentment. I think hostilis said something about that and I couldn't agree more.

If I noticed that my child was starting to believe the anti-drug crowd's lies, I would be sure to set things straight in as healthy a manner possible. It would kill me to see my child give in to such ignorance.

I am Roman Catholic. I tend to emphasize aspects other do not, like contemplative prayer.



I think the widespread denigration of "organized religion" is largely harmful. To be individualistically spiritual is like being individualistically scientific; it is like conducting experiments in one's own garage, rather than in a team-coordinated laboratory with stacks of peer-reviewed journals nearby.

It is helpful to have access to the spiritual practices available from an organized religion, which can nurture one’s own growth. In addition, I especially find Church intellectuals like St. Bonaventure, Pseudo-Dionysius, and St. Thomas Aquinas rightfully praised.

Bottom line: for a Platonist to have a home, he will likely be a Christian. As André-Jean Festugière said, "When the Fathers 'think' their mysticism, they platonize." The Platonist tradition has been woven throughout Christian history, and so it is my main religious wellspring.

P.S. I want to add that I do not want to detour this thread, nor do I mean to disrespect persons that believe other than I do.

For sure.

If only "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_misconceptions_about_illegal_drugs" could fit on a bumper sticker.

The issue of religion being brought up also resiginates with me. My wife's family is Buddhist in ceremony and beliefs. While I was raised Roman Catholic. My father has asked me what I will raise my daughter to believe. I feel religious beliefs and opinions toward psychedellic use go hand and hand. For me I feel religion has taken humanity as far as it could. To move forward we need to move past our separation caused by disagreement over the correct path to the truth and the light. Psychedelics can be a sacrament, to me they are. I feel they unite humanity, in bringing us to a common ground. But, my idea of " truth" may not be the "truth" my daughter needs to hear, or my wife wants her to hear. I love the anecdote of your mother telling you "Maybe they make monsters into trees" (gotta love the way mothers think). Everything we say to our children, has potential to stay with them their entire lives. I think every child is different and I will have to keep a close relationship with my daughter, so I will really know her and her needs. And really really be careful how much of my "truth" I share with her at any given time.

This is an interesting position, Primordium. We should talk sometime (PM). As you can tell from my handle, I'm Catholic too.

I have to respectfully disagree with nearly everything you've said here, though. I have not yet been forthright with my children about my own entheogen use, but I DO NOT hide their existence from my children. I drive in the car with my son, listening to Terence McKenna talks. I have watched "The Spirit Molecule" with him sitting next to me on the couch. I discuss my encounters with my guardian angels, my visions, and other such things openly, although I have not, yet openly discussed my own use or exactly WHAT these things ARE. I can barely understand 1/2 of what TM says, so I'm sure it makes absolutely no sense to a 7 year old, although it may help to improve his vocab! I also talk with my wife about mushrooms and other things in his presence.

I very much appreciate Alyson Grey's advice on this matter, which is something like this: Treat these things the way you'd treat sex (that is of course, if you're a sex-positive individual). Answer the questions as they're asked, but don't give more info than they're ready for. But, also, don't "hide" info either. This is the approach I'm taking.

Most vitally, DON'T carry the Church's innate fears of these things into your home. Be quick to refute the Church's positions on stuff if they contradict YOUR FAMILY'S values. We are most definitely a qeer-friendly home, and I am bringing up these topics WAY before my son gets them in Religious Education. I'm going to do the same with Psychedelics. It's OK to wait, but be sure you're saying things about them
1) Before the culture does (School drug "education"
2) Before the kids start to question you (pre-teen years)

You say that discussing Psychedelics will violate your role as a parent in terms of being a carrier of what is right and moral and that the danger is that you will ENDORSE USE. Isn't that what we want? I hear in your tone a certain verification of the culture's position on these things, as if you actually do think "drugs are bad," just not for YOU, but quite possibly for your own kids. The thing you have to do, if you really care about these things, and care about your kids, is to create in them the same reverence you have. We, as a community, have to work together to come up with rites of passage, with CONTEXT for these things. In Santo Diame, kids as young as 12 are drinking ayahuasca, albeit in low doses. These are the kinds of things we need to come up with. This, however, requires some SERIOUS homework from us moms and dads.

First, if we're going to help our kids through these planes and not get lost or end up abusing these sacred medicines the way my acid-head friends in High School did, we NEED to know these spaces back and forth. Even before my son was born, I was told in a vision that he'd be a violin player and that I needed to learn it in order to help him later on This is the same kind of thing. I took a goodly many years off from hyperspace. Now I'm back, because I think these things are valuable, and I want to be able to help guide my kids through these spaces when they're ready. I can't do that if I don't know the geography of hyperspace.
Second, we need to expect the best from our kids. They're YOUR KIDS, dude. If you're smart and well-balanced, and have your shit together, they probably will too. My wife has had serious bouts of major depression in her life, and mushrooms and LSD never did her harm, even in large doses. Unless the kid's a schizophrenic or has some personality disorder, they're probably safe. Trust him/her to be ok.

Do you think the Christians in China don't tell their kids they're Christian because they're afraid of how the kids might behave about it in society? No. They RAISE THEIR KIDS CHRISTIAN and tell them how dangerous it is to be Christian because of the possible legal implications. What you are suggesting is that your spiritual/moral/psychological values are less important for your family than the values of the wider culture, with which your (our) values are at odds. We will NEVER normalize these things until we have the balls to teach our kids that they ARE normal.

Anyway, I could keep venting about this. I think about it day and night.

Teach them. Teach them. Teach them. What we have is SACRED, REAL, ALIVE, WISE, and OK. Teach them. Teach them.

I have had a 100% same debate with my future wife over her daughter, sadly my views & my future wife's are very different.

My view is as long as the child is old enough to have a grasp on "life" as it is such as being aware of Karma, universal love, the Soul, that "drugs" can be of great help yet also destroy you they are kind of ready to go & begin to learn about what I call "the hidden world"

My woman is of the view that her daughter should never touch "drugs" & that it would destroy her child's mind & lead her to being some Meth smoking junkie.

I can only go on my own life experience but I have found Psy drugs to be of an amazing help to me & never had what I call a "issue" with them unlike my Heroin addiction of 10 years which nearly cost me my life several times

The calling of the Psy world I think is very selected to people, I think in a way the plants etc find you when you are ready in a way, like your "soul" calls out for it in some way & the "Gods" send them to you.

To be blunt If they have the calling & feel the need to do it let them try it.
It's not like your daughter /son is coming to you with a Crack pipe or a piece of foil asking you how to smoke smack etc, the Psy things feed your mind & soul & in my experience are not a "drug" you can really have a issue with.

Ha!



Personally, I would have fears that (1) my child would unintentionally mention illegal substances to others, especially if the subject has always seemed casual, and (2) that my reported visionary experiences would not be comfortably integrated into his worldview and his milieu (i.e., the playgound consequences of "My dad talks to angels" seem predictable). These are my concerns; they do not need to be yours.

Having frank discussions about spirits with other adults seems to be culturally required first. The seeming weirdness needs to be mitigated, in my opinion. This is just my strategic approach, though. I have patience about my children, perhaps as adolescents or adults, encountering the strangeness of our world. In the meantime, I hope they learn to navigate the social norms as presented.

Relatedly, I would encourage you to read God and Other Spirits: Intimations of Transcendence in Christian Experience by Phillip Wiebe.



I would be hesitant, not quick. If one chooses to belong to a Church, one should understand what one gains: a centuries-long collection of deeply-religious thinkers that have considered these matters long and hard. My moral reflection is meager in comparison. That does not mean I am not heretical on many counts, but it does mean I am heretical only begrudgingly.



I do not necessarily want all people to use psychedelics; like I stated earlier, most people that I know that have used psychedelics have not encountered entheogenic qualities. Moreover, I do not find psychedelics to be a spiritual panacea and consider my own preference to be more idiosyncratic than universal.



I agree; however, as I stated elsewhere, "One of the worst elements of the Drug War is the silencing effect it has on its critics: if I come out and openly attempt to legalize drugs, I will be immediately stigmatized by others, perhaps barred from professional opportunities. Thus, even if I am not committing crimes, there is great pressure to remain silent about my convictions." As it stands currently, supporting my family and children financially requires silence, not cultural proselytizing.



Sure. I gave few definitive answers earlier; for the most part, I offered my priorities and what considerations will be taken into account, no matter which direction I take.



Anecdotes are not especially convincing, especially when my own history has countervailing evidence.



Personally, I believe one can teach virtue and requisite doctrines without dragging in psychedelics.



As I suggested earlier, I do not believe teaching our own children should be the first step; rather, other adults should be our primary audience.

Ultimately, I would both (1) end the War on Drugs immediately and (2) clear any misinformation about psychoactives that my children have. The rest is optional, but incredibly high-risk, in my opinion.

can those old dogs truly be taught new tricks?

Not all, that's for sure.

There are certainly trade-offs from choosing either to (1) convince other adults that our society can responsibly include psychedelic use, or (2) raising children to view such use as acceptable and normal.

This is somewhat context-specific [e.g., it's easier for the Greys to choose (2)]. I know my decision, though (at least until late adolescence or adulthood is reached).

I have a three year old son and would be honored to introduce him to the wonders that the medicine can bring into your life. for me medicine is so much a part of my life and what I do that he will know that I am holding ceremony before he is able to partake, so it won't seem like a taboo to him. the only question I have is when will he be ready, a matter I am sure that he medicine will guide me in. the medicine is a great teacher and will guide you in such matters if you ask it to, so, ask your teacher people!
I jus hope I can steer him clear of the real nasty stuff; heroin, amphetamines, crack and the lowest of all... alcohol

When I have a kid, which I want to do but not for another 6-10 years(Im 29) I dont plan on hiding any of this from them. I would let them sit on my lap or lay with us while we drink ayahuasca and have no problem with it..unless both of us were going to be way gone, then I would be afraid of being unable to attend to them if they needed it etc..

In general I guess I would just set a good example so that my children would never need to even make a bridge between the context of my use with sacred medicines and people who abuse drugs. I dont drink alcohol or use other substances really..I smoke cannabis occasionally and I use a few psychedelic plants that I have a good relationship with. I dont see a reason to hide that from a child. I dont need to tell them all about it either thogh until they are ready to ask.

I also wont send my childen off to be brainwashed at public school though. Thats where so much of this begins.

This is something I've thought of many times. I don't have kids yet, nor do I want them for a good little while yet, but when they come along I don't want to hide things from them because when they do find out they might think that I was lieing to them or they might think that if it's not bad why'd I hide it. Although at the same time I don't want them to feel forced into thinking that they must take psychedelic drugs either.

I don't want my child to think that alcohol is completely okay but all other drugs are bad just like many people who I talk to think. I was smoking a joint at a small little pub outside in the smokers area where there was at most 5 people, 3 of which were helping me toke away at this joint, and this chick had a go at me because of what I was doing to myself, as she was smoking a cigarette mind you. Her justification was that it's legal so it's not nearly as bad as other drugs. Why would the government ban something that's not bad for you blah blah blah. I would have failed as a parent if my child believed such nonsense.

A.

I like the idea of informing my daughter about drugs, before the school system gets a chance to do so. I should be the first to inform her, even before my wife I believe. For one thing I definately have much more first hand experience with medicines, alcohol, and tobacco (which I quit the year she was born). I think I know more about initial and long term effects than most people in government, who decide what our children are taught. I think if someone is worried that their child my say something to someone that could in some way get you in trouble. Then begin by explaining to them, as soon as they can understand. That alcohol is a drug, and has serious side effects, that tobacco and coffee are drugs and have withdrawal effects that beg you to continue using them. With this as a frame work at a young age, they may develop an understanding of the families of drugs and the flawed system that governs them. It could set up for a proper understanding of psychedelics later in life.

don't tell you're children anything people

when they are the right age send them to hyperspace and allow for them to learn on their own

also i am neither married nor having children so i suppose maybe i am not the best person to give advice on these matters

QFT

I am the same as you in the way of "i am neither married nor having children" but have a step daughter on the way (if my missus can learn to STFU & not demand sex from me when I want to sleep cause that makes me want to leave her)

Your post was short but with razor sharp accuracy, a true pleasure to read

Well shamans don't think adult age is necesary...
On my first ayahuasca in colombia, I was with other 40 people, in which there were 3 little kids between 4-8 years old, there also was a pregnant woman and there also was a 75 year old man.
Yes, they did drink aya!
I asked the shaman's helper .... Why? Is it safe?
Yes it is, he said.
The kids don't get much of that puking and shitting, because they are cleaner than us, he said.
And the boy that's in the way, will grow up stronger, and will live an awaken life!

This is shaman thinking...I have no kids, but I do have a 5 yr relation with my girl, and I haven't been able to talk her out of wasting money on stupid fashion living life... So I'll be taking her to aya, if she wants!

That is 1 very informing post, sadly my missus is the same with "I haven't been able to talk her out of wasting money on stupid fashion living life"

It's clear as day in her mental mind set she has never done a decent trip, she thinks life is about "cute" dogs & everything being "nice" it drives me mad.
I told her I wanted to go to the Amazon to do Yage & she went mad, I am sure you can tell people that have had a life changing trip from those that have not just by the way you go about your life & the things that you value.

The thing about children drinking ayahuasca comes up from time to time..some people get really bend out of shape about it too..but in reality far more people give their kids heavily caffinated soda, MSG, large ammounts of refined white sugar..they will feed them pesticides and herbicides, dirty tap water etc..

I bet those things are all gunna harm a child more than the occasional tiny little servings of ayahuasca that they have in some ayahuasca using tribes and daime communities etc. It is all about perspective I guess.

In our culture we are brought up to believe all kinds of dogmatic bs. So much of it starts with our education. When I was in school we had all these rediculous programs we were exposed to telling us lies about drugs..filling our heads with this crap..while we all went home and likely watched our parents sip alchol on certain occasions after being led to believe that drugs are bad and anyone who smokes a joint needs rehab and deserves to be detained etc. This is dangerous becasue a person could be the best parent in the world and not drink or smoke tobacco and do more for their kids than 90% of parents out there, and be caught once late at night smoking a joint and have their kid run off a tell a teacher.

I will not expose any children that I have to that sort of mind controll. I will make sure they are well educated and properly socialized but it wont be happening within the public school system. If I had children being raised within that context I dont know how safe I would feel having them know anything at all about my relation to these things until they are able to seperate the facts from the fiction that has filled their heads. Confusion is cultivated within that educational system. I know I sure as hell was confused and believe a lot of really rediculous crap based on what I was told about sex and drugs etc at school.

A culture that lies to it's children devalues it's future.

tell your children "it was a fun ride, but you kids are late for the party, sorry."