If there is a scientific study regarding this, I would be curious to see it. As far as I'm aware, there have been no studies done and no data collected that would suggest that DMT production does spike in your sleep and that it does have something to do with your dreams (especially in the cases of individuals who never smoke or take exogenous DMT in their lives). There was a bit of speculation regarding this in Strassman's "Spirit Molecule", which spawned plenty more speculation, but at the end of the day, I think that's all that it is.

Now there were two separate studies done - one involving ayahuasca and a separate study by the same people involving dreaming - that may suggest that DMT may have considerably less to do with dreaming than one may be lead to believe. In the study regarding dreaming, it was found that when people perceive an external visual stimulus, they respond to the stimulus in such a way that on an fMRI scan of the brain, it correlates with the brain being on some level "surprised" by this as it did not create the visual stimulus. When dreaming on the other hand, there was activity in parts of the brain to suggest the opposite; that is the brain wasn't surprised because it was allegedly producing the imagery itself. Now the same kind of study was done with ayahuasca as the variable, and they found that the same parts of the brain that are active when viewing external imagery not produced by the brain were activated for their blindfolded ayahuasca participants. This is to suggest that the mechanisms of visual imagery (at the least) seem to be different for DMT and dreaming, and that in the case of DMT, the brain is behaving as if the incoming perceptions are from external stimuli which is not the case for dreaming.

There was a great topic here a couple months back where this guy talked about wandering the far East in saffron robes looking for enlightenment, but didn't... Upon returning to New York City, he was hanging out in front of a bar when this scruffy Jesus-looking hippie guy singles him out and walks up to him. The guy asked the hippie if he had any acid... The hippie replied, "you don't need that", then whistled a carrier frequency between his teeth that sent the guy into a classic six-hour trip experience. Sorry I don't have the link to this topic!

As far as my own experiences go, the one sound that I always seem to notice during my spice journeys- and each time I find myself commenting to myself, "oh yeah, this sound again"... It's almost like a nonsense word, like "freeeeen" with the pitch of the eeee sound rising and falling. I always get the impression that this sound is significant. At least twice, this happened when I was attempting to get a close look at this recurring knob-like structure I often find hanging from the ceiling of the chamber, but always seem to have a lot of trouble looking directly at. The sound seems to be related to the knob, and appears to be informationally rich.

If you want to reproduce the full effect, you need the information ON the carrier wave and not just the carrier wave.

slightly off topic but worth noting

I have tinnitus. The main tone is perceived as a constant pitch. I fell like the frequency is the same from day to day. There are occurrences of a second louder tone overtaking my "reference" tone. No beating occurs, the new louder tone seems to fade in as the quiet reference tone fades out. There is no "beating"

A spice induced carrier tone beats against my internal reference tone especially at first. It crawls in just like my 2nd tinnitus tone but rather than replace the tone, it actually plays at the same time....creating a new tone like additive synthesis.

Its nuts to listen to... not as nuts as the place Im slipped off too once the spice fully hits.... but nuts.

Well, Dr. Strassman talks about this in the Laura Lee interview. "Well, I think that there is a very strong possibility that the production of dreams is mediated through elevated levels of DMT." He admits that it remains vague whether or not DMT is produced in the pineal gland but that there are other places in the body where it is being produced. Strassman does not deny there are spikes in the production at certain times. You can listen to this around the 10 minute mark in the interview. I would not downright dismiss it on the basis of there not being a scientific study. I am getting quite tired about the paradigm that for something to be real, science must publish a peer reviewed study of it.

What does your intuition tells you? Dreams are visionary states, just like DMT trips. There must be a connection and a reason as to why we respond so sensitively to the DMT molecule. Likewise, there are receptors in our brain that seem designed to bind THC. Lime plugs and wall sockets. It does not sound logical to me that a molecule causing intense hallucinations that our brain needs for a reason OTHER than visionary states/dreaming states would cause a visionary effect. That would be like eating too much fat and getting thinner.



Lots of suggestion there but I am not impressed. Can you give a source please?

My intuition tells me that the two are nothing alike. Before my experiments with DMT, I read the Spirit Molecule, also assumed that dreams and DMT were integrally connected. Once I started journeying for myself, the doubts started to grow. Dreams just don't even seem to be made of the same kind of stuff as DMT. Not anywhere close. For starters, if I realize I'm in a dream, I can do as I please. If I realize I'm in a DMT experience, it doesn't mean the world of difference because I can't seem to impose much on that realm at all. DMT seems to be more ontologically stable than dreaming. That is to say when you're dreaming, you can look at your friend, look away, and look back and he's someone else entirely seemingly because your brain has forgotten how it was rendering him in the first place or even who it was dealing with. DMT on the other hand comes across as more real. DMT is more vivid, more interdimensional, more detailed, and often times just all-around perfect. Even the most vivid of dreams for me comes across as more vague and just of a completely different nature. I've already stated why I don't think dreaming of DMT necessitates DMT in your system as your brain quite regularly tries to mimic stimuli encountered earlier in the day/week. Now I don't mean to imply that there always has to be science to prove something. I'm quite against that notion in fact. However saying that, it's important to realize that Strassman who hadn't taken any DMT came up with this abstract theory that the two are alike, but perhaps with first hand experience, he might conclude that they're not so connected either. The Spirit Molecule is a great book considering that it perhaps has some of the greatest power in drawing attention to this obscure compound, but on the other hand it's also filled with a lot of conjecture (that is prefaced as conjecture), but that unfortunately ends up being taken as gospel by many which has perpetuated many myths about DMT that the more and more you look at it, seem to be less and less plausible.



Here's the source. The dreaming article should be on the same site. They also talked more in detail about it at MAPS a couple months ago.

Well, interesting article. But it leaves me unsure of what you are saying really. What bearing does this study have on my assumed connection between DMT and dreaming?

Also, your dreams may seem fickle to you but with practicing lucid dreaming you can control your dream. Attention is a strange thing. You can read Castaneda on that, heh.
I think dreaming holds great potential but since dreams come from our experiences they will be addressing the subconsciousness as far as content is concerned. In that sense they sure are different. DMT trips are experience, so I wonder if in your dreams you recapitulate DMT and other trips.

In my case the dream intertwined like that with the earlier DMT experience. And then producing the same pitched sound again.

The connection that I'm trying to emphasize is that the neuro-biological mechanism for visualization appears to be fundamentally different when contrasting DMT and dreaming where dreaming appears to be ontologically closer to the imagination whereas DMT appears to be ontologically closer to witnessing something of a semi-external nature.

True DMT doesn't seem dreamlike to me at all , but I have noticed a definite connection between DMT and very long lucid dreams for a few days following a breakthrough.

I find it very interesting how the carrier wave is sometimes audible and sometimes not. Even when the intensity of the experience could be described almost identical. Makes me wonder what the function of the carrier wave is. When it's a "carrier" to the other dimension, I would expect to hear it each time I enter "the other dimension". It could be that it's there but at a very low or very high frequency, during the experiences where I don't hear it. DMT is very much like tuning into another frequency of existence or being, but about the mechanics how the tuning works I can only wonder.

If DMT is at all involved in mediating out dreams, it's in very slightly elevated amounts- perhaps enough to facilitate greater free association of symbology but not enough to produce the characteristic visual effects. And I agree about strong DMT experiences being so-called "perfect" as mentioned above- that is, everything present in the experience, down to the tiniest detail, is clearly part of an overall unified internally consistent presence, where dreams allow for some extremely squishy logic.

There have been times when I've been wakened just as I'm drifting off to sleep, and recall very potent and surreal abstract visuals- not the flawless crystalline DMT stuff, but almost shroom- like in character. This could be an elevated DMT moment. Salvador Dali used to take extremely short naps in an armchair... He would hold a heavy brass key between his fingertips and drape his hand over the arm of the chair, so when he drifted off and relaxed his hand he would drop the key and immediately wake back up from the "clang" noise. He claimed that these moments provided visual inspiration for many of his most famous paintings.

One of his quotes was, "I don't use drugs because I am drugs." maybe he figured out how to naturally capture some of his brain's routine DMT production spikes.

Wow that's very interesting , I didn't know dali used a type of lucid dreaming for his inspirations , I always thought he used some kind of substance...I'm a huge dali fan!

To me dreaming is created by my brain because it often includes parts of my daily routine but in an abstract way , dmt is most definitely received from somewhere although I can't prove it , I'm convinced it's not just my brain , I mean the mathematics that it would require to just mimick the geometrical part of the visions would probably make normal fractal mathematics look like something taught in preschool , ones imagination usualy lends things from reality in order to make new things from already existing things...The experience that dmt provides is so totaly alien at times that it is almost impossible for me to say that anything was lended from this world in order to create the experience.Imo

Maybe that is a gradient. Dreams are a mild or light trip, with content close to home. DMT is as far as you might be able to go so that encompasses all smaller circles of experience.

There are ways of thinking about this. Do you believe that the human imagination is limited? If so, then a DMT trip will make you think that it comes from outside.
As a solipsist, creating reality myself, in its infinite diversity, I have to wonder of my imagination is limited.

Could it then be that during the experience you drill into a well of pure imagination or inspiration? The muse itself so to say? The warehouse from which you combine elements to create reality with?

There is another possibility, that the spice makes you think or believe you are seeing inexplicably complex structures and mathematics, that it gives an impression of it, but when you could analyze it, it is just utter nonsensical. I have had dreams where you have this eureka moment and something makes complete sense. And then you write it down half asleep in your dream journal and when you read it back fully awake, you see it is nonsense, makes no sense at all.

So do you really see the...perpetuum mobile in action, or just get the impression you do? It would be a charade of sorts put in front of you.

I don't know that solipsism necessitates that your imagination is creating reality. "You" and your imagination are distinct and separate. That is to say that one's mind and imagination are not mutually exclusive. There's plenty that goes on in the deep subconscious that could easily never make it to the imagination for example. I don't believe an event has to be imaginable for it to manifest, even if it's you who's "creating reality".



I have to politely disagree. An example of such complex structures and mathematics that ensures that this logic is carried through happened to me about a year ago. I took a couple hits of DMT and found myself standing in a gigantic pyramid. There were some little people walking around, doing their thing (whatever that was), but then more importantly there were three holographic "pharaoh sarcophagi" floating in front of me. They looked as close to the kind of King Tut sarcophagus as you can get down to the detail. Here's where the mathematical complexity comes in: the 3 pharaohs in a horizontal line, would constantly move and fold through each other. There's something you have to understand, that perhaps you can't if you haven't witnessed something of that kind of inter-dimensional nature, but when they move through each other, all of their parts fit perfectly into any other part of the other such that as they cross over one another, the side of one becomes the face of another which slides to become the other side and so on and so forth. These aren't simple shapes. These are highly complex and detailed forms that are completely stable in and of themselves that maintain and add upon said form by folding through each other. This is something where even though I experienced it, and countless other times with similar inter-dimensional folding, I would be and am at a complete loss for imagining anything of a similar nature in my head. I think we could argue up and down as to how "real" the experience is, but to say that people merely have the impression of viewing mathematically complex and perfect visuals just doesn't ring true with the vast majority of my experiences.

Now part of what I said about the pharaohs is that they aren't simple shapes, which on one level is true. The pharaoh form itself is not a simple shape. However that experience mentioned above was over a year ago, and was the first of many of my Egyptian themed experiences. More recently I had an experience where I saw some of the more "simple" (misnomer) DMT shapes that are excessively common for me and seem to crop up a lot composed of pretty basic geometries like circles, triangles and squares would easily coalesce and holographically position themselves on top of each other to swiftly create very detailed Egyptian imagery. It's quite fascinating to see a few basic shapes layered at just the perfect angles to form these images. There's no doubt in my mind that they didn't simply give me the impression that after layering themselves there was some extra morphing inferred by my brain, because if you were there it would be clear that this could not have been the case. As with much of the phenomena that one can encounter on DMT, much of it might not hold much sway or make much sense without the direct perception of said phenomena, and my words will only be able to do so much.

Perhaps there is a part of the brain that is infinitely creative , perhaps that is the part that can be referred to as the pure or the universal conciousness , but I think the brain itself has limitations , to me the brain and coniousness are not exactly the same thing , the brain seems like a vessel for something bigger but limited in it's processing ability but it does not mean that whatever it contains is limited as a whole , it can only contain x% of whatever is available.This is pure speculation but it's the way my experiences have shaped the perception of it.

As for the math thing , it might ring true for many substances but to me dmt has provided me with very sharp detailed visions of complex structures not just a feeling of complexity....complexity is relative but compared to what I have observed in normal reality , it is definitely a very complex form of geometry.

It could be that imagination is overrated But where is this source material you build trips with then. I am not what Global means though. Isn't imagination part of our mind?
I understand the notion that subconscious life can manifest the unimaginable. But in a solipsist way, there is no such thing as unimaginable. If it exists, it must have come from the self. Don Juan would disagree with me. He would say there is the tonal and the nagual. The nagual is the unknowable and the tonal the island on which we experience reality. There is our inventory.

"There's no doubt in my mind that they didn't simply give me the impression that after layering themselves there was some extra morphing inferred by my brain, because if you were there it would be clear that this could not have been the case."

Well, that, to me, could reflect what I have talked about elsewhere. Awareness creates a bubble consisting of its own energy around it. It emits its own self upon it and so it gets lost when the reflection comes back. Awareness is omnipotent and omniscient. There we are. There is no doubt in me that we can imagine or dream up or invent the most incredible things.
One way to look at the DMT trip would then be that you tap into Potential itself. From Potential can come anything. That is why these visions could never be taken out of the trip into the real world. They follow complex new laws and a universe able to hold them. This universe don't seem to be able to. But Awareness I am sure has created, on that canvas multiple realities that we cannot even conceive of with our ape brains. Perhaps the visions come from such a place. Complete other laws of phsyics, or realms where there are no such laws at all, where more freedom is granted to consciousness.

So what Trppym says sounds right to me. There is a part of us that is infinity creative. Call it Potential or universal consciousness, those might just be different words for the same thing. The brain has its limitations but they seem specific. You cannot e.g. manifest the DMT visions into this material plane.

But Niels Bohr dreamt up the atomic model. I do never exclude the possibility that reality then conformed to that model and that the reason why we see that model when we use microscopes, is because he manifested reality to reflect the dream. That is what we humans do, we change thought into reality. We envision a building, we draw it out, then we use contractors to build it. We are changing matter into other matter. The limitations of this world are what we have to work with, metal, stone, wood, plastics etc.

In trips we have no limitations. The brain seems to me merely a quantum antenna. The material planes' machine or the keel of the boats we are that always sticks into the quantum world. It is an interface-connection device and a bridge between our power to manifest reality, perceive what we create and gives us readouts on it to ponder on.

It could well be, that the carrier wave ( I heard it again in my dream last night when I woke up in a dream) or at least our individuall varying interpretation of this thing, felt bodily to some, audible to others and ranging frequency shits of it, is a built-in mechanism to access other realities.

You know, if Awareness Energy created this reality and set off the Big Bang, which I call the extraction of a zip file, part of that zip file would have been that there are methods for entities to cross over into other dimensions. Awareness created reality I propose as a play pen for infinite experience, where things can undergo the formal act of occurring. It would make little sense that entities within our particular universe would be denied access to other realms of experience.

One way to look at it is that DMT and other psychoactive are meant for that, so consciousness can expand into the most unlimited realms possible. But in principle, if we are here to experience life in our ape way on rotating balls racing in space, and if we would find ways for new experience, there is room for it to occur. We can change the way things work. And then the things you see about Pharonic multi-dimensional holographic whatevers will be possible if we so desire.

So, DMT as the loophole in the fabric of reality sow e can experience even more than this shaped universe would allow.
And the carrier wave is the ride in.

Ok so I just posted an idea on another thread about weighing the dose.

So you weigh your dose and use a tone generator to travel to the same place again.
Dose = volocity (speed / distance)
Tone = direction / location

I have a feeling you'll disagree with me about this Visty, so I warmly welcome you to show me where I've gone wrong in my thinking. It seems to me that you've developed this well-thought out solipsist view of the universe - which is great and has a lot of merit - but now DMT comes along, and instead of observing with an open mind, you're trying to cram everything into this rigid solipsist box you've carved out for yourself. I think this move is backing you into a corner. In a number of threads, you identify yourself as a solipsist; you put a label on yourself and identify with this mode of thought, and hey: you might turn out to be right. The beauty of DMT is that it's notorious for shattering beliefs and expectations, especially about itself. You think it (and/or the universe) works like "this" today and tomorrow it becomes crystal clear that it was "that". It's one of the most useful catalysts one can stumble across on this planet for all-out transformation, and when it does show you that your thinking may have been flawed, it's best to have the discipline to cut it off like a useless appendage and let it die a peaceful death. I don't think it can be so helpful to develop attachments to beliefs because it can hinder you to a great degree in keeping an open mind with these topics which is of the utmost importance. It sounds like there's still much DMT has that it can show you (as us all), so I wish you well and much luck on your journeys.

In the Hyperspace Tavern subforum, lysergify just posted this interview with Rick Strassman from March 1, 2012. If you'd like to skip right to the part that's relevant for the discussion of this thread, if you start listening at around 16 minutes in, Strassman himself declares that the implication of DMT in dreaming and near death states is substantially speculative.