Thank god I dont have children, and never will have to put them through the insanity of this world.

What? That is the way that I feel. It does nothing to sit around and talk about these things unless you are informing the people who don't see the point.

I have directly experienced how ****** up this society is and I have nothing to lose therefore I am supporting this 100%

People who have it well off just sit there and complain that nothing is going to happen without doing ANYTHING. It doesn't help! Awareness and the power of the people is the only thing that will.

Fundamentally the bulk of the movement is seeking the dismantling of the capitalist system bringing about total social reform.

The things is... people are blaming capitalism, but that's just another lie/spin that was created by the governments - it's their scapegoat, just like "the speculators are to blame".

The truth is, it's not capitalism that is to blaim, because under captilism corporations are allowed to fail. So... What it really is is socialisim for corporations with at the core corruption of government.

Just wanted to state that fact cause many people are operating under the wrong assumtion, and as a result misdirecting their pitchforks.
Their pitchforks shouldn't be aimed at Wallstreet, they should be aimed at Washington and the white house. Those are the ones selling us out, Eallstreet is just the one "using the drug on offer" by the government, not commendable either of course, but it's not the core of the problem.

In my opinion these movements need to get their facts straight before something is gonna really happen. They're attacking the wrong enemy.

Anyone who says the peaceful occupancy movement doesnt have their facts straight or doesnt have the proper goals clearly has not been paying attention. This tactic works when enough people get involved. Why is this so hard for people to understand? Do you not remember Egypt? Spain?

1) Free and fair elections. Public funding only, with real debates like we were taught in high school and college with debate teams and references and relevant issues that are strictly adhered to. 2) Get the corporate money out of elections. Create public election channels that would be the venue for debate and campaign education. No paid advertising on corporate media channels. With public funding and public campaign channels there will be no need to solicit special interest or corporate campaign funds. By doing this our elected officials will not be “owned”, or owe favors to special interest groups or corporations. 3) After election there should be no financial or gifting requirements to meet privately with elected officials. We realize that elected officials need to meet with experts when evaluating new legislation. When these meetings or consultations are necessary, representatives from all organizations that feel they have an interest in the pending legislation should have the option to send official representatives of their choice to a venue where all interested parties will debate the pending legislation so that the elected officials can properly understand the concerns of all parties both public and private. 4) Televised, public and transparent investigations into the financial meltdown, mortgage derivatives, who knew what, when and why the decisions were made to bail out private institutions with taxpayer money, what the taxpayers are getting in return, and what is being done to ensure that this type of situation does not happen again. 5) Televised, public and transparent investigations into Social Security funding, history of that funding, how those funds were managed and borrowed from, and a truthful assessment of how much actual liquid assets are available to continue dividend payments. Replacement of all funding that has been borrowed from the Social Security Fund and a secure low risk investment policy to help grow those funds.
6) Foreign relations that will allow the US to compete in World Trade. For too long we have had to compete with countries that do not have to pay living wages and benefits, provide safe and sanitary working conditions, or operate their corporations in an environmentally responsible manner. The cost of producing goods while at the same time taking Care of the people that allow them to continue to operate and keep our environment clean is expensive. We will never be able to compete, and will continue to lose jobs to countries that do not provide these basic human and environmental conditions. Corporations will continue to move their manufacturing centers to these countries and American workers will continue to lose jobs, and the ones they have will continue to pay smaller and smaller wages.

Anyone who says the peaceful occupancy movement doesnt have their facts straight or doesnt have the proper goals clearly has not been paying attention. This tactic works when enough people get involved. Why is this so hard for people to understand? Do you not remember Egypt? Spain?

If you have a movemnt happening near you go there and talk to the people there..it is not just one issue trying to be adressed..it is many many issues and many many people are involved in this movement. There has never in our lifetimes been ANYTHING like this on such a large scale. It is naive to assume that a concensus on objectives etc will be reached so soon. I have been to the occupy Vancouver site and I can assure you Jbark everything you have outlined in your posts here these people are well aware of and it is something they are trying to address. The problem is the large diversity of people who are all basically just fed up..it will take time for a clear set of demands to manifest IMO becasue the situation is much more complex than your adverage protest.

"The mainstream media continues to play down the Occupy phenomenon, critiquing its lack of specific demands. Specific demands are pointless, because the entire political, social, and economic system in which we exist has rotted out from the inside. Demands would suggest that there is a way to reform the present system, but no reformist initiative is possible. "

well i don't know about demands being entirely pointless at this point in time, but pinchbeck has a pretty good point here imo^



one guys take on why it might not necessarily need a leader:

"But aside from the fact that many of the participants have stated clearly what they want, their detractors miss the point: decentralization is its greatest strength and most profound feature. And this decentralization was made possible historically and practically by technology.

Whereas once there were figureheads and men and women with megaphones fighting the power, now there are waves. The protestors don't seek a leader, but consider themselves collectively as a leader of a new way of thinking. The movement is the leader, in service to its subjects.

This is possible only because our sense of self is changing; growing more accustomed to connectivity through the Internet and globalization, we have begun to define ourselves by our interactions with others, not merely our own pursuits. Self is composed of a vast matrix of others instead of being segregated into Ones.

Of course this has its consequences too -- as many media theorists have pointed out; we can become more isolated by thinking the rest of the world is in the computer rather than real. But Occupy Wall Street represents this new sense of self at its most human.

Connecting online before and during the protests, with each other as well as the world, Occupy Wall Street occupies real space, and finds solidarity in virtual space with those who can't be there.

And this connectedness has given us a vast sense of equality that the protestors want borne out on a global, economic, and political level.

We're interconnected enough to know what others need. We don't need to be "represented" anymore, because we can actually speak to one another. "Connor Habib

So are you saying the central goal, the overriding IDEA, is to overthrow the entire government and the economy and the "system"?

Yes and I would gladly give my life if it would achieve that goal. I would hope more here in this place sees that the world you dream could be yours if you want it.

Thank you Fractal, you seem to understand what i am getting at. I am reassured to hear they are aware of what is lacking and what is needed and are addressing the problem.

My fear however is that all these disparate interests and the "diversity of people" and their individual beefs may undermine an emerging central goal, be there one.

i must say though, pointing out a problem and suggesting solutions is NOT an attack. I fear for this movement if everyone is so gung-ho that they will not bring reason to the table, and address the weaknesses and endeavour to organize around attainable, common goals. It should be simple, but ZEAL appears to be the enemy:

Are we so far gone and so far into the propaganda of this movement that ANY criticism is unwelcomed and vituperated?

I hope not. There is a long road ahead. Let's build it and straight and narrow and focused, so that it has IMPACT and is not a little sociological blip 6 months for now.

JBArk

PS it is a sad state i fear when only the voices of unquestioning agreement are listened to. Is this not, in part, what people are protesting?