I think inheritance should be taxed at a much higher rate than it currently is. I am not in favor of financial dynastis or gross differences in wealth.

I'm also in favor of free education through at least 4 years of college.

I'm also in favor of free universal health care.

I am also in favor or providing a base line level of food to all people.

To Everyone else.

Thanks you for destroying a thread about something absolutely great. Proving just how much you actually CARE about the revolution that is underway.

There isn't one unified message. At LEAST I responded in a constructive way to the person asking for help in this thread. Unbelievable you people.

Oh and I'd be willing to bet I donate more time and percentage of income to charity than you do. Maybe I'm wrong, but maybe I'm not. It just seems those screaming the loudest for handouts are the last one's to give every time.

Now, how about some solutions or open discussion instead of worthless personal attacks. Especially from such an enlightened crowd.

Peace.

First off, I wanna thank you again Joe for all of your support for me and this movement. Moral and otherwise. Your efforts are appreciated.

As far as all of the off topic stuff goes, I've been too preoccupied with keeping with everything that's going on with the movement here to really read the whole thread. I don't approve of any personal attacks being made to anyone. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and disagreements can be worked out civilly.

I don't mind any healthy debate about the issues at hand. It's good for progress and that's why we're doing this.

I don't have much time to really write out what this movement means to me from scratch so I'm going to copy and paste a reply that I left someone in a conversation I had on facebook earlier.



I'll try to catch up on the thread when I have more time but in the meantime, you guys play nice. There is a lot of information to take in and it's easy to get stuck on one ideal or notion. Please try to keep the bigger picture in mind.

The only REAL problems are the ones that affect ALL living beings. Period.

Well my dearest friends,

It's plain to see that we are ALL collectively quite disturbed and anxious about the political/social paradigm that our 21st century culture has woven about itself (in America and even more significantly, WORLDWIDE). And the solution? Is there truly an actual graspable solution to the misery human civilization perpetuates upon itself (millennium upon millennium), as a multi-experiential collective entity?

I think it was better said by wiser souls... 2500 years ago. Obviously, there is nothing new on this block. For the differentiation betwixt the HAVES and HAVE NOTS is growing exponentially, by degrees of intended design. Yeah, greed really stinks. We need equal rights and undeniably, equal freedoms. Tragically, we perpetuate an insane and wholly destructive social fabrication because we know no other way. Mores the pity... as we've had many, many wonderful teachers.

Thankfully for humankind, the Insubstantial Quintessence gifts us many methods to alter our mental programming and internal dialog. Exercising our intelligence in such ways, we penetrate hereto for unknown levels of awareness. This MUST be kept hand-n'-hand with our need to live as free individuals in a society which seems to desire to steer the minds of the masses away from such discoveries in perception. We do have access to magik, our souls and the eternal. Some of us have embraced psychedelics/entheogens/Sacred Medicines, for the enlightenment of our earthly, organic species and if it has any true meaning for our existence, it is in SEEING through illusory constructs. :idea:

We are hard-wired to engage realities beyond the borders and boundaries of our perceptual data. Yes, we all crave freedom and we all will find the way into The Light. In the meantime, we must learn to coexist in a more harmonious and ideally, a more balanced and equal manner.

So, as we are all quite well aware of... nothing significant has changed in the way we deal with each other, eh? It makes tears well up in my eyes, when I think of how far from the Divine Harmony we earthlings, as a whole, have thus far strayed. Evolution is the capacity to grow beyond the limits of our biological circumstances, for intelligence is a precious gift. So is LOVE. Ironically, we are yet to fully to do so or act so. Now is the time, folks.

It's always been the inescapable and most enigmatic moment of here & now. I honor those who take action and applaud their courage.

Perhaps this is why we are exactly here, awake and existing in this present crisis? Maybe many of us will never never understand our own species... but it is so freakin' obvious to the field of my subjectivity, that we are mindfully birthed by the current of the Indivisible Godhead. We are all one being. We uniquely interconnected points of awareness and thus, united in Spirit... yet, I fall to pieces when I learn daily of the pain and suffering, which so proliferates our experience of "The World at Large". We are called to protest such madness and I thank the folks who are on the front lines, doing their damnedest to express their concerns.

Sorry to digress... I just felt a need to emphasize our interconnection in this mess. We are best off to proceed with an absence of anger and/or indignation. We DO need to stand together and challenge the corruption of a planetary bureaucracy which is bent on re-establishing the Nobility and in so doing, train vast numbers of serfs to labor and toil for substantially less of the assets of said society.

The growing numbers of poor on this planet, who have neither equal rights nor equal opportunities to advance in a burgeoning system, which is devised to limit personal satisfaction in favor of artificially-programmed neuroses. Leaving little but the conspired directive of the Financial Warlords, who shape the destinies of countless millions towards the eventual trap of living a lifetime spent in fear of war and impending poverty.

That being said, if each and every one of us takes the time to send a heartfelt PRAYER towards a positive change, it certainly couldn't hurt. Might we collectively find the common spiritual thread which binds us as a multifaceted whole? In simple English... might we gather our focus together, in a positive current of loving and spiritual force? With an open heart and a crystal-clear mind (pun intended).

Being one of the older farts in this multi-fractal, most illumined psychedelic family, I must reiterate a wonderful sentiment sung in a popular song I recall hearing when I was growing up in the 1960's. Oh, what a hopeful time to be a child!!! The Brotherhood of Man recorded this lovely tune, both a romantic love song and for a few inspired years, a national anthem of sorts.

"For united we stand, divided we fall. And if our backs are ever turned against the wall. We'll be together, forever you and I... "

Check it out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=460INShy3BU


I for one, have not given up hope and I will stand proudly, holding the banner of peaceful protest. God is love and we are Gods. Shall we use our greatest resource, that being Love? BTW, it's rumored that loving vibrations kill the psychological cancer, known of as greed. Now this doesn't mean we stop fighting, on the contrary... I just figure we might all consider tempering our outrage with our hearts, eh? I don't see any fruit being born from our debative need to march towards philosophical disagreement.

Can we overcome our organic species' accumulated sickness of the heart and reject the conspiracy initiated by our corrupt government officials and their masters, the financial moguls who own 95% of our collective wealth? They must eventually pay their fare share in taxes... or this country and others will surely crumble to further ruin.

So yes, I applaud the protesters and will join-in will any local events, as I am currently unemployed and have some time to invest in active protest. I'm 53 years of age and have never even collected a dime before, despite paying into the system for 37 years. I now exist well bellow the poverty line (income-wise). I get $148.00 a week for the next 26 weeks and $19.00 in taxes are taken out of each check. No problem. I don't mind this at all, really. It does make things terribly tight and I would have been severely depressed long ago... but for the Grace of God (and a little help from my friends).

Why should billionaires and corporate executives be so selfish as to escape this fair contribution? That's gotta stop!!!

Oh yeah, just watch us unite! I can hear the sound of laughter from the Heavenly Spheres, so clean and refined. We are of the same glistening stardust and majesty in perfect motion.



Peace, Love & Light

How does anything anyone has said here “destroy a thread about something absolutely great”? How are discussions about economic inequality not constructive? The OP asked for ideas and opinions, and he got ideas and opinions.

Certain aspects of your message don’t seem to resonate with my understanding of what many who are part of “Occupy Wall Street” are trying to say. I expressed a difference of opinion in a respectful and courteous manner, and now you claim that some of us are making “worthless personal attacks”. What leads you to think this?

One of the primary messages of the protests is that economic inequality is harmful to society. A flat-rate tax system will exacerbate the inequality. I don’t think a regressive tax system is something that members of this cause support. How is expressing this not constructive?


I don’t see how discussing economic inequality is off-topic, but maybe I’m missing something. And I checked every post in this thread and don’t see any personal attacks anywhere. Am I missing something? I don’t think I’m missing anything… Am I?

I honestly hope the discussion here has given you some food for thought.

People are finally getting fed up with the growing economic inequality in our society. They want to do something about it. I’m sorry, but I believe that most of our current problems are caused by greedy wealthy people who want to be wealthier. (And in no way am I lumping all wealthy people into the greedy category.) The current problems weren’t caused by poor people, or by lazy people. Let’s put the blame where it belongs.

@ joedirt:

I understand your feelings, but don't you think that it's awfully difficult to do what you did? And it takes a lot of time and work? And is it not true that there is a fierce agenda and effort to undermine our purity as human beings and dumb us down? Is there not a psychological war in which our enemy uses scientifically tested techniques to instill all sorts of neuroses in the population so that by the time they grow up all most of them are capable of doing, and all all of them have the resources to do, is work at some mindless repetitive job that gives them nothing to show for their time and hard work, and only ensures that they can consume enough to get by. I could build a house myself in a year. Why should it take me a lifetime to pay for it? Why haven't we researched and utilized alternative energy? We can provide education, food, housing, and clothing, etc, to every human being on this planet.

I really feel like we need to lose the attitude that every individual should earn his own place in this world, at least in the way most people see it right now. Gone are the days where such endeavors are necessary to make the world go round. I see no reason why every individual's life can not be filled with abundant leisurely time, a cozy place to call home, and the means to travel freely through ought the world, free of charge when we have the space (even if all populations where water is short moved to places where water was nearby) and the means to do so. I see no reason why food of all kinds is not grown everywhere and by everyone, and why it is not abundant, and free, for everyone when we have the technology to make it so. I see no reason why we cannot find a way to make electricity free. I see no reason why clothes should not be more diverse, better quality (for aesthetic purposes obviously), cheaper, and average people given the resources to make complex garments. I see no reason why our world should not be filled with beautiful art and unique, diverse buildings, etc... I think you get the picture.

A simple change in our beliefs could rapidly make this a reality. I don't think it would take nearly the amount of work that millions of Americans do everyday (not to mention mention the rest of the world) at their pointless jobs which really are just to keep us busy, and give us just enough sustenance to consume more products which is what continues to power the people who are co-creating this situation, and dis-empowers the other people who are co-creating it. And I'm not talking about small businesses; I'm talking about mega businesses.

It is but one probable option in a pretty wide range of probable options; will we make the choice? Only time will tell. Things are certainly getting interesting.

Gibran every single thing about what I proposed is designed to level the playing field. If you think for one damn minute that I support gross extremes in wealth you are sadly mistaken. No. You are flat our wrong and you don't know a damn thing about me.

Maybe YOU need to THINK a little more about your views and about what I said.

Today we have a graduated tax system where the wealthy are required to pay a higher percentage in tax.
REALITY however is much different. In reality these people have so many shelters and loopholes that they don't actually pay tax at all.

We need to remove those shelter and ensure that the wealthy do indeed pay a larger amount than the rest of us. A flat percentage tax accomplishes this just fine. Lets assume there is no loophole. We have a 10% tax. Joe makes $100,000 a year and Bill makes $200,000 a year.

Joe payes 0.10*$100,000 = $10,0000 in tax
Bill payes 0.10*200,000 = $20,000 in tax.

Exactly HOW is that that not having the rich pay more? You see toady Bill would be in a much higher tax bracket but he would be able to shelter all of his money and essentially never pay any tax.

I am beside myself that so many of you have arrived at the conclusions that you have about me because I shared a story that almost every other person I've ever told has found inspiration in. Apparently because I believe MOST people CAN indeed PULL themselves up by their bootstraps I'm some how uber right wing? WOW. just WOW.

BTW I flat out believe that MOST of the people on this planet have roughly the same potential. I believe we mostly create the reality we see. Yes I know there are circumstances and special cases. I'm not stupid nor blind. I realize how lucky I am. But it seems like many here are ignoring that fact that a lot of poor people in first world countries are poor because of a lot of the choices they have made. Maybe it's not possible for every child to escape the ghetto and get a PhD, but it's damn well possible for the majority of them to get some education and a descent job so that they can raise their family. If my belief in the damn near unlimited potential of the human spirit is offensive to you I'm sorry. It's my belief...and furthermore it's this exact belief that it made it possible for me to do what I did.

If you think because of the above paragraph that I don't want to help those out on the bottom you are wrong. I want to help everyone realize the potential they have.


Gibran I assure you you don't speak for any more of the occupy wall street crowd than I do. I've been to the boston rally's and spoken with many online. There is a huge mix of people and a wide range of views. Some of us have a very educated approach to it. In fact I'd say the vast majority aren't in favor of some huge switch to massive socialism. Some are for sure, but many more just want the economy fixed so they can get a job and get on with their lives. BTW I'm heading back down today. I can assume that you'll be out doing your part as well right?




There is nothing respectful and courteous about this. You are implying that I'm both immoral and incapable of seeing how I've been fooled by the right wing. If you call this courtes you need to learn so real manners. It's just flat out rude and you know it.




Nope no personal attack here. Nothing to see here...move right along people.



yep me to. in fact it's pretty obvious to any one paying attention. I believe what I propose will give the power back to the people. Once the people have the power all sorts of real effective change will happen. I also believe what I propose will raise a lot more money from the rich.

Gibran I've said this in every post and I'm going to say it again.

What is your plan? You say mine doesn't resonate with Occupy Wall Street (As if there was a unified message). Well what's your plan. What would you do to change things for the better. Remember you have to start from the system your in.



I do get the picture and I think you have a beautiful view of the future. Now I'm curious how do we get there from here?

Peace.

Rising Spirit.

We can alway's count on you to provide profound words of wisdom to just about any conversation.

Thank you for the balance you provide.

Peace.

One thing you forget when discussing flat taxes is that the less money you earn, the less you have available for things other than immediate necessities. Let me explain:

Joe earns $21,000 per year, and his necessary expenses (food, shelter, etc.) are $18,000 per year.
Joe pays a 10% tax = $2,100 and at the end of the year is left with a disposable income of $900.

Bill earns $40,000 per year, and his necessary expenses are $18,000 per year.
Bill pays a 10% tax = $4,000 and at the end of the year is left with a disposable income of $18,000.

Tom earns $80,000 per year, and his necessary expenses are $18,000 per year.
Tom pays 10% tax = $8,000 and at the end of the year is left with a disposable income of $54,000.

Jim earns $160,000 per year, and his necessary expenses are $18,000 per year.
Jim pays 10% tax = $16,000 and at the end of the year is left with a disposable income of $126,000.

Notice that Tom earns 2X as much as Bill, but has a disposable income 3X as large as Bill.

Jim earns 4X as much as Bill, yet has a disposable income 7X as large as Bill’s.

Jim earns 7.6X as much as Joe, but has a disposable income 140X as large as Joe’s!

Just for fun, let’s say John earns $900,000 per year. His disposable income (after-tax income above what is necessary for life’s basic necessities) is $792,000.
John earns about 43X as much as Joe, but has a disposable income 880X that of Joe!

With a flat tax, as one’s income increases, disposable income grows disproportionately compared to those earning less. So the tax may be flat, but the effect it has on disposable income strongly favors the wealthy.

A flat tax penalizes the poor and benefits the wealthy. (Ever wonder why so many wealthy Republicans are in favor of it?)

And let’s not forget that most of the income of the super-wealthy does not come from wages, but rather from capitol gains, which already has a flat tax rate of 15% (a rate significantly less than what many hard-working middle-class people are paying).

So the obvious solution is to have a graduated tax rate. As a start, restore tax rates to what they were pre-Reagan. Of course, close loopholes, increase capitol gains rates, etc.


I agree that most people have similar potential, but not all people have similar challenges to be overcome. It’s nature AND nurture, and that nurture part of the equation is bigger than you seem willing to admit.

And suppose I could snap my fingers and magically every adult in the US had a PhD. Do you honestly believe that all of our economic problems would vanish? Would unemployment drop to zero? Would economic inequality disappear? Would everyone be happy and fulfilled, wealthy and prosperous?

We are led to believe that our societal problems are primarily educational problems. Both right and left seem to accept this. But this is really just another version of blaming the victim. If you lose your job, it’s not because some out-of-control profit-hungry company sent your job to Mexico, but rather it’s your fault – you failed to get the proper education, or you failed to anticipate the changes in the world economy, etc. Nonsense!

Everyone who is willing and able to work should be entitled to a job with family-supporting income, regardless of educational level and regardless of choices they may have made or failed to make.

This thread is fascinating but guys, lets ease up on the vituperation!

I admire the protestors for making an effort to do 'something', but what I'm unclear about is what the defined aims of the movement are.Sure, they want the economy to be fixed, but what exactly does this mean?Are they seeking to simply turn the clock back to the pre-2008 times when 'the economy was booming', or do they seek something more fundamental and, IMO, more beneficial such as the questioning of and turning away from a debt-base economy?

Corporations are greedy but I think its a little more complicated than just a question of greed.The dysfunctional nature of how money is supplied into the economy compels them to behave in such a fashion, and there rapacious success, IMO, simply reflects their ability to 'work' within the system as it presently exists.

I suspect that the essence of the problems our economies face is not understood well enough by the majority of people, protestors included, to allow the focus to be directed where it needs to be.

There isn't just one single cause for our current economic situation, except maybe the human incapability of self-reflection. We've been doing dozens of things wrong and we've been in denial of this truth for too long. Now all those wrongs have accumulated to the degree that we can no longer leave solving them to future generations.

If there is one underlying problem it's maybe that we're all too spoiled by the luxury of wealth. If you spoil childeren with candy's and toys, their capability for self-reflection and criticism will not grow and devellop, they will become greedy self-centered citizens. That's what's happened to us.

Finally. Something that we can actually talk and debate about.

I agree with you that when you examine the bottom earners it is quite unfair with regards to disposable income. What if there was a zero tax bracket? People that don't earn above a certain threshold don't have to pay any tax? But even if we didn't do that perhaps with all of the other things I proposed such as free health care, free education, base line level of food...that these bottom earners would have quite a bit more disposable income than they do today...

BTW I'm not hard set on my ideals. I am very very open to discussion like this. My views are plastic as long as there is rational for changing them. I'm not opposed to a graduated tax system. I just think there needs to be more to it. What's the point of a graduated system if those at the top get so many deductions they don't really pay? More than anything else we need to fix the entirety of the tax code IMHO. It's a completely disaster.

And to be sure I very much share many of the ideals of society that you all do. I also realize that we need to get to some of these solutions yesterday...but I also realize that we have to do it collectively as a people. We have to work together. These things won't come to pass until the peoples' voice is heard and that voice is with unity.

What you say is actually borderlining socialism. I know that in america socialism is a dirty word, but people generally speaking, don't know what it stands for.

The word 'socialism' is used as a word to shut people up and stop or derail a political debate.
I find it typical for instance, that many americans seem to think that there is a connection between 'national socialism' and 'socialism'.

I am still sceptical that in such a political climate, changes like the wall street protesters are sugesting, are actually possible. But let's try to be hopefull. They haven't been shot at yet as far as i know.

I agree wholeheartedly with what you say. I'm tired of the word socialism being thrown around like a bad word. Everybody is in favor of socialism when they need police or schools, or their house is on fire. But they never seem to like it when it helps others. I'm not in favor of pure socialism or communism, but I'm sure as hell not in favor of our current style of capitalism...and I think the environment is pretty tired of it as well.

I am also skeptical, but we have to hope. If we do nothing then for certain nothing will happen.

I'm headed down to the rally's again in a few minutes. I'll try to take some clearer pictures than last time and give a better report about the pulse down there.

Peace.

Gibran, when I referred to personal attacks, I hadn't read the whole thread and was only going off of what Joedirt said in the last sentence of post #21. After reading the entire thread, I apologize for making mention of it as there really weren't any personal attacks from you or anyone else as far I could see.

Thank you for opening up the dialog and you did raise many very important insights. I tend to agree with you on the points you raised.



I believe that this is key to understanding the whole problem. We live in an age where apathy and indifference run rampant. It's far to easy to tell people "You made your bed, now sleep in it" without considering the personal struggles each individual has gone through or are currently going through. When you go to a rally and really start talking to people about why they are out there, some of the stories are truly heart breaking. No matter how a person got into the situation, if we can't help each other out, we're just as bad as the bankers.

I completely agree with Rising Spirit in the fact that we have to come together as one and really get on the same page if we're to make a difference.

Debates like this are critical in achieving this because there is a LOT of information to comprehend and it will take quite some time to get everyone to realize those issues, not even mentioning coming up with solutions for the issues.

To answer Corpus Callosum's statement about not knowing what the aims of these protests are... My personal belief is that they are about building awareness to the issues we're all facing. That's why there isn't a set "end date" or list of demands yet. This is an ongoing movement to get people to realize that there are problems that we have got to deal with. We can't keep waiting on that Change we've been promised for so long. It's time to take direct action and bring about the change ourselves. They had their chance and blew it.

It seems that most of America is willfully ignorant to the issues and are conditioned to be indifferent to those who suffer. This movement is about showing the rest of the world that we can support each other and live in harmony even when faced directly by the most powerful people in the world.

I think that the quote by Jimi Hendrix is pretty relevant here. "When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, the world will know Peace"

There is another way to say this so it applies to the average person is "Live simply so that others can simply live"

My personal goals for this movement are to create a society that embraces Compassion and Sustainability. If we cannot achieve these two things in Government, Politics and our Local Communities, we don't stand a chance.

Ok I wont' try and defend myself anymore in this thread because it really and truly is irrelevant to well..pretty much anything. I am but one voice...one small meager voice at that.

But I want to push this dialog and process a little further.

melodic you say this: "My personal goals for this movement are to create a society that embraces Compassion and Sustainability. If we cannot achieve these two things in Government, Politics and our Local Communities, we don't stand a chance."

I agree with you. But it's not enough to want this. HOW do we get from here to there?

Dreaming of utopia is fine and good and we should all aspire to the highest ideals of our humanity. But how do we get there form here? What policies would you support and why?

Beautifully stated Melodic. I agree completely.

This reminds me of the concert I went to last week. Part of the crowd in front of the stage fell over and some people just started climbing over the bodies. The band immediately stopped playing and yelled at them: "PICK YOUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS UP!!"
This I feel is how it should be in our society. No one should be allowed to be trampled under foot, if you fall down we pick you up. This is our responsibility to each other.

We need a kind of socialism that respects individual freedom but doesn't allow the least of us to drown because of others greed.

I agree with you that actually getting there is the hard part. My ideal solution is The Venus Project and a Resource Based Economy. How to make that a reality is the kicker. I believe it's all about awareness and that's why I support this movement so strongly because if nothing else, it's getting people to talk about these issues. It's one step at a time and this is the first step, getting people to realize that the world isn't so peachy to begin with.

If I had my way, as a first step, I would demand intensive community building projects. Instead of trying to rely on the government to take care of all of these issues, teach people how to be self sustainable and deal with the issues themselves.

I don't believe that tax reform, political reform or any of the other reform ideas will work because it's putting a band-aid on a festered, puss filled system that is inherently broken. The goals here should be to attempt to get back to what our Forefathers created America to be. Land of the Free. Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness. They really did have the right idea but it's been massively perverted over the years to accommodate the wealthy and powerful instead of your average American.

I would hire the best social engineers to go into each community to assist them in building a system that works. Granted, they might not get it right the first time and would probably take several revisions in order to really make it worthwhile. But it would be a start.

Right off the bat do away with the Federal Reserve and all outstanding debt. While money and the monetary system have been critical for our human evolution, it is an outdated system that no longer serves us and only promotes corruption, greed and inequality.

Instead of putting so much value onto the "almighty" dollar, put value into what really matters. People, food and shelter. If we can't value each other, no amount of money can solve our problems. And that brings me to another point. We are one of the "richest" nations in the world, yet we don't have enough money to solve the most basic human problems. The truth of the matter is that we simply don't have enough cooperation.

When you get communities involved, everyone can pool together all of the available resources and make things happen. It reminds me of the saying "United we stand, divided we fall". That's another great thing about this movement, is that it is getting people to come out of their safe little bubbles and out onto the streets. It is allowing them to get to know their neighbors and really get to the bottom of what is actually going on.

As it stands now, most people are out there struggling to make the ends meet. They are out there fighting alone and they are stressed and scared out of their minds. You can't make rational choices in that state of mind, no matter who you are.

We have to eliminate the fear mongering that is broadcasted every minute of every day by the mass media. Return the media to the people so that we can all grow together instead of being a bunch of misinformed sheep that lives in fear of the big bad wolf.

When the media is returned to the people, we can document and broadcast, in real time, the positive changes that people are making in their communities and inspire other communities to do the same thing or something similar.

Our forefathers had the right ideas and ideals when they created this great nation. They knew that no one policy would be good for everyone and that's why the decided to make all of the different states. If you don't like the policies of one state, move to the state that embraces your way of life.

Our government has gotten too big and tries to impose it's will on the entire world, not just the US. Get rid of the big government and allow the communities to govern themselves. They typically have a better idea of what they need than some outsider does anyway.

Once we start perpetuating the community based mindset, something like The Venus Project will become a no-brainer because it will be far easier to educate people about the benefits and potential pitfalls of such a system.

I don't agree with any kind of 'ism type system because they all tend to be based on the monetary system. Until we realize that money has no value other than the value we give it, I honestly don't see a lot of REAL progress being made.

Some lovely writing there MC, and I agree with everything you say. It really does seem to be the use of money which provides the stumbling block to any realistic hope of change. In jungle-dwelling tribes the fittest and strongest go out hunting, but there is never any question that what they bring back is shared equally among the whole village. So such a system clearly works at that level, it's just that nobody has managed to upscale that to our much bigger communities...almost definitely, as you say, because at a certain size, the use of money seems to be inevitable.

In the UK there have been some interesting experiments with unofficial local token 'currencies', which were effectively a simple bartering of goods and services. The people within such setups seemed to be much happier with life, but presumably those systems too would become corrupted if they were upscaled.

It really is extraordinary that no one within the entire human race can seem to come up with a better system than financial 'natural selection'! Maybe that really is all there is - a financial free-for-all with those of us who care left to try and help the victims as best we can.

Edit: Maybe the reason it is such an insoluble problem is that we were never meant to be living in such huge groups?

Thanks Limeni, I'm just trying to speak from the heart.

I saw in a documentary, I can't remember which one right off the top of my head.. Where people were using time as a currency.

Here's how it works. You donate 1 hour of time with your current skill set to someone who needs it. You now have 1 hour to spend. With this hour of currency, you can get 1 hour of someone else's skills. So if you're good at computers, you spend 1 hours fixing someone's computer. After you are finished, you can cash that hour in for something you need, like a doctors visit.

The more people who are involved with the system, the more options you have to spend your time currency. I believe that this started around Cape Cod but I'm not positive on that.

More details about the system can be found here. It's a sustainable, healthy alternative to our current monetary system. And the beauty of it is that the more people who get involved, the better it becomes.

Yes, that's exactly the sort of thing, and it works well at a local level, and people seem to be happier. The trouble is, it doesn't really help if you want someone, for example, to be running a glass manufacturing factory, so we can continue to have windows!

There have been isolated examples of (e.g. In the UK, Quaker) industrialists, who have treated their workforce respectfully, and used their money in philanthropic ways (and currently we have the 'John Lewis' company, who treat their large workforce as 'partners', and share out the profits). So maybe the only possible answer will be to keep the current system, and just improve ourselves...over time.

And one of the best ways of helping that closer, of course, is what you are doing right now! .