Wow, Dr. Ball sure gets a (perhaps) appropriate hammering in the comments section...glad to see most of us are uncomfortable with his "I have found the Truth" spiel.

One of the commenters and those above stated my own view...that McKenna, a gifted Celtic bard with a taste for psychedelic circuses, is immune to the sort of criticism Ball offers.

Terrence was an amazingly gifted and inspiring person. I have been reading and listening to his lectures for years.

He rarely makes totally definitive statements about anything. He always leaves the door open for different interpretations of his ideas.

I don't think he ever implied having the final word on anything.

People can say what they will he had a gift for language and amazing provocation of different interesting ways of seeing everything.

In my opinion his concepts are jumping off points to better understanding things that defy traditional understanding.

As far out as he goes he still seems to remain reasonably rational about all of it.

DMT as an example is so incredibly enigmatic I'm never really interested in opinions by people that have never actually experienced it.

I think your getting about half the picture,and completely missing the other half..I agree to a point with what you are saying..but what use is all that in the end? I still have to go pay bills, pay for my car..I have to feed myself..I have to cloth myself..To say that "everything is in here, there is no out there" sounds rediculous to me..

I might as well lay down and die right now since it doesnt matter...

If there is any "in here", then there sure as hell is an "out there" as well...you cant have 1 and not have the other..you are NOT trancending a damn thing until you realize that..all you are doing is picking one polarity and frantically stroking it to death..not too "enlightened" in my book..and thats exactly what I see Martin Ball doing..getting caught up in one polarity..none ego/ego..he chose non-ego..ok..so what now?

I guess im not "real" enough for that paradigm, since "everything is in here"..why cant it be all in here and out there at the same time? why does it have to be one or the other, why does it have to be so lower dimensional and linear?..so..hmm, BORING?

Trancendentalism is not about one or the other..its not about non-ego vs ego..its about realizing both as equal players in the game, and seeing the bigger picture that exists when one sees past the this/that play of duality(ego/non ego)..its about reailizing the significane of both, what that could possabily mean for us and not getting caught up in polarity stroking.

At the end of the day, "I" am still here, "you" are still there. I am you and you are me. We ARE one, yet I am here and you are there.

Well, fractal enchantment, I did put forth two ideas in my post, "life isn't what I thought it was", and "it's all in here, not out there". But I didn't confuse those ideas further with ideas that you brought up in your post. Ideas like enlightenment, transcendentalism, ego vs. non ego, no isms. I'm not sitting over here thinking, "I might as well die since nothing matters", you're the one who's interpreting that my comments would mean such a thing, so obviously you haven't understood the point I was making. To say "it's all in here" merely refers to a truth of existence. All experience is an inner experience. Looking out and seeing outer space, or seeing other people, or paying bills, is always an inner experience of experiencing other, but it happens on the inside. You ask, "what use is all that?". As I said, it manifests as a more free flowing, joyful life. No one has to agree. If you're not on the same page, it won't manifest that way for you.

Well, SWIM messaged Dr. Ball and here is what he had to say in response:

-SWIM informed him that there was a bit of a backlash here in response to the article, and also pointed out that the attack on Terence' voice was questionable-

"I'm sure it did - that's kind of the point: get the egos riled up and hopefully thinking in the process. And I stand by the fact that Terence's tone of voice is very significant. It's not an "attack." It's an assessment of the expression of energy and as such, I think it's entirely accurate and appropriate. The fact that people feel the need to defend Terence's wild ideas only proves my point in the article: his work has influenced people in misleading and ego-fulled ways. =)"

I see both sides here, but honestly I think that a lot of the mythology that people are creating in some of these DMT trips are more or less a fantasy projected by the ego.

Terence did in fact set up a lot of people to expect to see "machine elves" in their trips, due to the mythology of DMT that he created. I think it is fair to say that most of what Terence says what happens when you smoke DMT is very far from the actual experience.

I respect the views of Terence. I have read most of his books and his views have definitely influenced mine.. But I'm not 100% positive that he got the point. Terence WAS speaking from his head, and not from his heart.

I try not too take anything too seriously, but I do think that Martin makes some good points.

The reason Martin speaks the way he does, is because he believes 100% in what he speaks of. A lot of the time it actually makes people uncomfortable. I don't think he is just trying to make money or become famous through his ideas.. He genuinely believes in what he speaks.

Anyone who believe in outside "entities" believes in a world of duality. Even humans are not disconnected from one another. We are all reflections of each other. We are all One.

Hmm, but that really has no real relevance in this case, as true as that may be. It's just as naive to act like subjectivity is insignificant as it is to act like its overly significant. Perhaps there are aliens living in the pleiades or elsewhere..does the fact that "all is one" now somehow make inquiries into life on other planets all just some ego game as well?..and if so, what the hell is the point of then being a human?..we might as well all collectivly pull the plug on this entire thing since its all an ego game..

And whats so inherantly wrong with ego anyway?..Im serious..when and where did it happen that ego became something of a burden?..something to cast aside?...ego is tool..you woulnt know or experience any of this without it..embrace the life you have, embrace ego..jsut learn to keep it in check from time to time.

Why does is always come down to the argument being for one or the other? Im so sick of hearing it. Ive withdrawn from this standpoint in persuit of something else I found along the trail, something deeper, something more facinating than this whole ego/non ego crap I keep hearing spewed out over and over and over again. Im seeking TRUE trancendentalism..

This is the main fault I see in Martin Balls standpoint. At the end of the day, we are still humans, still existing in(to a degree) subjective experience..so what if "all is one"..and of course it is at some level, but that doesnt mean that there arent aspects of the one, that exist outside of the "subjective" self that we as individuals have yet to uncover.

This is something I definatily feel Martin Ball has either chosen not to adress becasue it makes it alot more complicated than he makes it out to be, or he either missed it altogether.

To say that I "believe" in a word of duality becasue I believe in "outside entities", starts to sound a little silly. If I go surfing and see a shark, should I pass it off as nothing, since there is no "outside entities"?..of course I respect "my" place in the world of duality that I exist in subjectivly..its a part of the life that I love, the life that I know damn well is a gift.

You cant focus on "all is one", and disreguard subjective experience as well..they are so closely interwoven that to favor one over the other is a gross misinterpretation, and a complete collapse into duality, weather you choose the "all is one" stance or the one of individuality..neither is a full encompassment of what is really going on..trancend all that bullshit on both sides and embrace the diversity that flows throughout all unity.

BTW not all of this is directed at you clouds..jsut me ranting in general

Rereading my post it did come off maybe a bit harsh. It wasn't my intent to sway this into a roast of martin ball, i actually like alot of what he has to say- especially about the peculiar energy phenomena that is perceived on 5meo and salvia. I think Martin genuinely means well, even though i probably haven't listened to him enough to make an educated opinion. I just think it was a pathetic and baseless criticism of a mans experience of life who he's never even met, and clearly doesn't understand.

Jbark hit the nail on the head-
Mckenna speculates and acknowledges the speculations. Ball speculates and infers knowledge of absolute truth.

"The fact that people feel the need to defend Terence's wild ideas only proves my point in the article: his work has influenced people in misleading and ego-fulled ways. =)"

Dismissing all ideas outright that are too far up your wierdometer isn't going to get us anywhere in this ever-changing bizzaro world. Also, I dont see how the act of defending a wild idea automatically means your ego-fueled and mislead, but thats not even the case here.
Did he read the thread? No ones really discussing terences wild ideas at all. More like responding to a very shaky interpretation of a person.

I don't get how Ball can be so sure about his diagnosis of others experiences. It sounds like he thinks that thats all Terence did; mislead the naive into expecting elves and leading them into a sticky loop of ego-inflated projections. Which of course has happened, as with many things. But he obviously was describing his own experience. He has said himself that describing what the psychedelic experience is for other people is ridiculous. I don't think any one person has the final truth of the matter down pat and to go into any experience in life expecting exactly what others did is really limiting your potential of experience on all levels while allowing delusions room to take hold.

Everything, including that shark, is an extension of the energy that you are made up of as a being. Everything in our reality is made up of the same energy that we are made up of.. this includes "outside" entities such as other humans, animals, plants, whatever..

Don't pass the shark off as nothing, but instead see how it is interconnected with you and with everything else in reality. All energy comes from the same source.. and there is only ONE energy.

-Another message from Dr. Ball.-

"OK - So McKenna was an entertainer who liked to make people laugh with his funny DMT stories and share his speculations. Well, I take reality, and DMT experiences, seriously, and am not here to entertain or stroke peoples' egos. And what is "true humility?" Is it misleading people through being entertaining while dangling incoherent theories of ... See Morereality before people, or it is asserting the truth passionately and clearly in the face of popular opposition? Which is easier? And no, Terence didn't claim his experiences were universal, but he did repeatedly call on others to try it out and see if they agree with him, and he does say that DMT will "convince you reality is made out of language." Well, I took up his challenge, and I find his views fragmentary, delusional, and wildly misleading. He put out a challenge, I answered it. And unlike Terence, I do know what I'm talking about. That may not be "humble" enough for Terence's fans, but so what? Doesn't make it any less true. =)"

Yeah, well..add the rest of my post to that quote and it should be evident that I got that..

I would like to put this topic back on track..

Essentially, what Martin is trying to argue here, is that McKenna threw a lot of egoic fantasy into his explanation of the DMT experience, and didn't do an adequate job of explaining the actual experience.

For the longest time, before SWIM ever smoked DMT, he believed that he would see "aliens", "machine elves", or "self dribbling basketballs" in his DMT experiences.. and I believe this happened to many people. I believe that many people came up with even more fantastical mythologies surrounding the DMT experience because of the fact that McKenna spread misinformation about what to expect when smoking DMT. The ego can be a very tricky thing.. especially when you are taking a drug that puts the imagination in control.

McKenna was a great storyteller, and had it not been for his fantastical explanation of the DMT experience, many people may not have ever wanted to smoke DMT.

From SWIMs personal experience, nothing of what McKenna has said about the DMT experience resonates with him. Absolutely nothing... And I think this is worthy of discussion.

I have to admit, Terrance's descriptions of machine elves is what first piqued my interest in the molecule. Unfortunately after using it I was disappointed not to have seen any. I saw God, aliens, snakes, and all kinds of odd entities, but no machine elves. After that I realized one of the defining characteristics of the dmt experience is that it's hard to nail down a defining characteristic. Experiences can vary wildly from person to person, and from experience to experience.

Like mentioned before, Terrence was just a story teller and he told of his own personal experiences. He wasn't laying down some immutable foundation as to what constitutes the dmt experience, and it shouldn't be taken as such. His descriptions of mushroom trips are the same way.

"And unlike Terence, I do know what I'm talking about. That may not be "humble" enough for Terence's fans, but so what? Doesn't make it any less true. =)"

Hmmnn, real mature Mr. Ball..so anyone who doesn't necessarily agree with everything he says is now one of "terrences fans"..surely we must be, since Mr. Ball knows what he's talking about..
He cant even address others with some level of respect, anyone not on his little team, backing him up is just some "terrence fan"..talk about one sided egomaniacism.

It's not even so much what he says, but HOW he says it and the way he chooses to respond and address others..yeah that's the way Martin! Categorize others, cus it gets you sooo far!

I guess its just impossible for anyone to hold a viewpoint that isnt so polar, so..hmm Ball or Mckenna..this vs that..on that team or MY team.

-Another quote from Dr. Ball-

"When it comes to understanding reality, ungrounded speculation is just as energetically damaging to people as fundamentalism. Both are equally confused and thus both contribute to restricted and blocked energy flow within an individual's being. When individuals are blocked or restricted in their energy, they are not living in reality, and negative consequences arise as a result. It's a fairly simple concept with radical implications. I've used Terence as a popular example of this fact, but anyone would do."

This makes a lot of sense to me.. The fact that Terence created these myths blocked a lot of people from having the "true" experience that DMT has to offer. People started looking for aliens or machine elves when they were having their experiences, and because they were looking for them, they found them.. Everyone's subjective experience is different, but you have to remember that it is happening to you inside of your head in the realm of your imagination. People see dream characters in dreams, but do they interpret them as physical entities?

It was damaging for Terence to release these stories, in a sense, because people could be having experiences beyond the scope they are normally having.. instead of creating even more mythologies.

Again..what a load of bullshit.. "anyone would do"..what? WHat he means by that I can only speculate.

Curiousily..I wonder what his thoughts on alien abduction cases are..

BTW..I never looked for machine elves smoking DMT..becasue, what the hell does a machine elf look like? Mckenna never really did say did he..he used funny terms like "jeweled, self dribbling basketballs"..which is so obviousily some sort of play on words..some sort of metaphore..he wasnt expecting to be taken so literally, that would be rediculous. He was talking about something you cant talk about. How the hell do you look for that? God Mckenna must be rolling over in his grave right now.

Mckenna gave more than enough disclaimers; that all of his statements should be taken with a grain of salt, that he was in a tiny percentage of users who experienced "x" effects from dmt, that his ideas were speculation, that his ideas were crazy. Anyone who is taking McKenna's speeches as fact clearly has not listened to much Mckenna. Essentially, Dr. Ball has created a wonderful little straw man to pummel; blasting away at reconstructions of things Mckenna explicitly said not to take at face value or as literal representations.

It wasn't damaging of Terence to "release these stories" any moreso than it is for anyone to post a trip report. If you can't clear your mind enough to have your own experience and have to go scrounging for the scraps of what other people have seen, that's on you. I was drawn to dmt by Mckenna, but initially had no entity/machine elf/Mckenna-ish experinces. This was not off-putting as the experiences I had were wonderful, marvelous, and beautiful in their own right. If people can't expand their own imaginations and minds, that's on them, there's really no need to blame Terence.

I can honestly say that I believed in a lot of what McKenna was saying in his explanation.. But honestly, NONE of what he says even relates to any of my experiences. Even the sound of a plastic bread wrapper isn't universal, as I have never heard it.

He even says that once you smoke DMT you will realize that the world is made out of language. This is something that never happened to me either.

I appreciate Mr. McKenna quite a bit, he has influenced my life in a lot of ways.. but I do think that his explanation of the experience is very misleading. A lot of people actually go into the experience expecting to see entities.. and if you are looking for something, chances are, you will find it.

You do realize this is metaphor, right? Like, you're not gonna suddenly become Neo in the Matrix and see the world in language-code. This is a philosophical realization that you may or may not open up to. Mckenna merely believed this was (and it was to him) one of the more obvious revelations dmt could provide (given you have the tools to understand/come to this realization). If statements like this are the fodder for Dr. Ball's/your issues with Mckenna's thoughts on dmt, I really don't know what to say.

"and if you are looking for something, chances are, you will find it."

Well now thats a bit odd isnt it? I guess you beat the odds since you didnt find it. Sounds nice on paper but I dunno about that statement. If you took Mckenna seriousily thats not his fault..not anyones but your own..he said enough times that noone should take his word for it, and that he didnt know any more than anyone else..that he didnt like being up there talking all the time while everyone else sat and listened. He didnt want tobe prophet and was not into gurus..he did not want that role. He was just a guy that used some funny metaphores to explain his own experiences..and he made that clear..all the fools that hung onto his every word have noone but themselves to blame.