Thanks Ragbr. I think the bronchitis must be unrelated. But had I re-xed like you told me, I wouldn't have to ask the question! Glad you enjoyed the reports - and yeah, the dose was certainly much too high. Feeling much better about things now. I guess what they say about muscles not remembering pain somehow also applies to the altered consciousness.

Still just wondering how I become a full-fledged member!

cheers,
JBArk

Speaking of pulling the trigger. SWIM once had a similar horrible, ego-shattering "never-again", experience only extended to 2 hours. She drank a crude extract of 6 g of syrian rue and loaded around 60 mg of spice in the machine with unknown amount of residual spice from previous journeys. What followed is an undescribable psychological torture that lasted almost 2 hours. After recovering a little bit SWIM did something she cannot explain. She picked up the machine, took another massive hit and was catapulted right back in the same hell for another 1.5 hours. Why she did that remains a mistery.

It took her close to 2 years to slowly tiptoe back to spice. Now she can take massive doses of spice orally in aya but a mere thought of straight vaped spice make her hands shake.

Recently SWIM became converted to Changa. For her it is much less disorienting. Caapi presence tame the spice somehow and gives the whole experience a sense of direction. Try it.

In SWIM's case bronchitis was directly connected to smoking spice. It started in half an hour after inhalation. Maybe it was already in the making but it was undoubtedly triggered by spice.

Cannot even imagine having hit it a second time, trickster. Whatever compelled you? Just imagining it makes me shiver... Adding caapi to the mix kinda spooks me too. Does it really smooth things out? I used rue tea with chaliponga once and was in a schizophrenic style hell of no return for about 4 hours after. Kinda made me wary of the maoi route, although i hear nothing but good reports from the changa users here.
Cheers,
JBArk

WOW jbark- this was an amazing description. Thanks for sharing this, I thoroughly enjoyed reading it, you have a great way with words.

I think a lot of us are in the same boat here. Its hard to have such an earth-shattering expereince with this stuff and not be able to just run and tell all your friends/family what you just saw. It reminds me of platos allegory of the Cave. Anyhow, I will refrain from going off into a separate tangent.

Just wanted to say hi and thanks for sharin.

Best,

T

Thanks astroNOMADical,,
i guess in order to understand things i need to write them out and i spend a good deal of energy doing so and making sure the words convey the ideas or feelings the best they can. And yeah, like the greek dude's cave, except for me when i turned around to see the source of the shadows, i was sucked into a vortex of colours screaming the days of the week!

Really glad you appreciated the report. There'll definitely be more now that i have consolidated/forgotten the experience/dread/terror.

Thanks to everyone. Any of the more senior nexus members have anything to add?

JBArk

SWIM's only explanation is that she could not believe that it could be THAT BAD and decided to make sure .



Below is SWIM's personal experience that you should consider just like that - individual subjective experience. There are at least 3 different ways to mix these 2 substances.

1. Pharma. Extracted Caapi alks and spice taken orally. The best way in SWIM's experience (thanks to ron69) is mixing them in orange juice. Needs a bit experimenting to find out if any delay between taking MAOI and spice is required and the necessary dosage. The usual caveat - start low and have a sitter. If nothing happens after an hour or so, try eating something, or drink a glass of sparkling mineral water. At higher dosages may lead to purging, sometimes violent. Usually the onset begins at +15 mins and later, sometimes at + 60 min and more. Duration is 2-3 hours.

2. Sublingual. Faster onset. 7 to 20 min for SWIM. Lower dosages. 2-3 times less than for pharma in SWIM's personal experience. Less body load. Puking is rare, unless there is a serious overdose. Duration is ~1 hour.

3. Oral or sublingual MAOI + smoked spice, sometimes called fumahuasca or vaporhuasca. The onset is as fast as with straight spice. The journey duration is longer. Lasting in SWIM's experience 20 to 40 min. With higher doses may last for 1.5 - 2 hr. The comedown is also substantially longer.

4. Changa. This lady needs a special comment. SWIM has very little experience with her but was converted in an instance. Read the separate sub-forum. Basically it is Caapi of other herb leaves ifused with spice. Purists here insist that a proper changa should contain Caapi in some or other form. SWIM has only experienced Calea+Salvia+Spice (very disorienting at higher dosages) and Passiflora + Caapi Copy+ Spice. Incredibly beautiful.

Obviously there could be other permutations with which SWIM have no experience. Traditional Ayahuasca needs a special treatment, so it is not mentioned here.



Reading the forum you may notice that this is the prevailing opinion of the forum members. Rue and spice are not very compatible. In SWIM's experience all journeys with rue and spice were horrible nightmares.



I would suggest to try Changa starting from lower doses. SWIM's favorite low dose is 30 mg of passiflora/spice/caapi copy extract in proportion 1/1/0.2. There is less than 15 mg of spice but what incredible visuals it produces! Like all of sudden you were teleported inside the Avatar movie.

Hope it helps.

Safe and Happy Journeys.

Fantastic report, jbark. I've been wanting to respond to your post, but haven't had the time the last couple of days to give it the attention it deserves. In any case, the issues you are wrestling with at present all resonate with me completely.

I believe the reason you feel compelled to ride further into the eye of the storm is because there is value in the experience. Is it healthy? That's a question I've found myself asking daily throughout the past 15 months, and the answer is both very personal and perpetually subject to change. But in my experience, this is a drug which generally rewards courage. Work your way through and past the fear, and rewards will typically follow. Don't go seeking answers. If you travel this road, answers aren't part of the deal. You are signing on for the questions alone, and you've got to be okay with this. You're experiencing an utter impossibility which you will NEVER decode or unravel. If the prospect of this is too much to handle, the ride likely isn't for you.

Logistically speaking, my advice to you would be to a) recrystallize ASAP, b) get a scale, c) meditate a bit before pulling the trigger/focus on your intentions, d) keep your eyes closed throughout the duration, and e) turn off your inner monologue. If you do all these things, I think you'll find that your relationship improves very quickly. But the bottom line (as with all things) is this: If it doesn't feel good, stop doing it. If it does, then do it again.

This was one of the most valuable lessons that spice taught SWIM. During one of her deeper journeys she perceived this incessant annoying chatter as real physical pain. Being granted unusual powers she just willed this chatter away and immediately she was engulfed by and united to the existence itself. All of sudden she understood that this union is just a step away and this step requires stopping your incessant inner chatter.

JBark - jsut got around to reading this thread now. Thank you for sharing this, its an excellent report, and you have described it with real honesty, which is not always easy.

I had a series of very, very dark journeys, and like you, wondered why the hell I was doing this and wondered if I'd come to the end of the spice route. Like you, I was eyeballing the doses and some were way, way too strong. What you have described is as far as I recognise, simply too much.

I would also like to join the chorus and recommend changa. And, as others have said, 0.001 scales - honestly, mine arrived about two weeks ago, and every journey since has been so much better.

As for surrender - yes, when they're coming into your skull with nuclear tipped jack hammers, and the quantum alien overload is flooding in through the cracks, no surrender isn't the first response - its more like get me the hell out of here now and all of you go away ... there are things in hyperspace there is no way I was going to surrender to.

But these dark journeys have great value; even if it is to appreciate this life, this plane of existence. Once, I was never so happy to be back in the monkey cage, where everything happens nice and slow. Wanted to kiss the earth like someone who's survived a plane crash.

In my experience, there is a great deal of wisdom and learning that we can take from hyperspace; but sometimes it take a lot of work to figure out how to go forward. Intention is everything; and if you suffer from recursive loops - as I do - an awareness of them is a first step in the right direction.

If you decide this is not the time for spice, then it is not time - whatever you choose, I hope we will hear more from you here on the Nexus.

Safe travel, friend

Thanks Uncle Knucles,
i have always found more value in questions than most answers one finds, so i have no problem accepting that. All of your advice is valid and helpful and i will definitely endeavour to put them into practice; the most difficult one for me will be turning off the inner monologue - a lotta chatter in this noggin! I have never had any real success with meditation as a result... Thoughts jump in uninvited.

Bought a. 0.001 g scale, so that's covered too. And am re-xing this weekend. So all that remains is to get over this damn bronchitis!
As for courage, i'm too stupid not to be...

And i realize, to an extent, that i answered my own question: with all i wrote and learned, there clearly is value. I still don't know at what price, however, and i guess that ties into the question of whether or not it is healthy; given that i am compelled, i guess only time will tell. I'll keep you posted.

Cheers

JBArk

Trickster - I'll try one or some of those suggestions soon (still have bronchitis). Do you follow a dieta for Pharma (oral maoi/spice combinations)? Or is that strictly for Aya? Pharma sounds almost identical, so I imagine you must watch what you eat before and after.

Thanks,
JBArk

88 -

Thanks for the words of support - much appreciated. I have long been in (and am more or less coming out of) the state you described in your recent report (I wanted to respond directly there, but I am not yet permitted to post on all topics...) : Career, depression, health issues - a bundle that became a knot that was/is difficult to unravel. Maybe explains my interest in spice and other related substances.

Very curious about changa - I will definitely give it a whirl once the bronchitis clears. And yeah, if you haven't had a chance to read the previous posts, I bought a 0.001 g scale, so no more foolish guesses!

I don't mind the occasional dark journey either - turns us all into mushy tree-hugging, just-glad-to-be-here types for a short period. It's when they are ALL dark that I wonder what's happening or whether or not it is worth it or if in the balance of things, spice (or salvia that I have more experience with) has a positive or negative value.
JBArk

No. No special dieta. It just happens that on the day when SWIm's planning a journey she doesn't feel like eating. She does eat a small cheese sandwich in 15 min before the beginning to kickstart her digestion. In an hour, if there are no effects she may eat another sandwich and drink a coup of tea.

The forum veterans noticed that natural MAOIs seem to be quite gentle comparing to pharmaceuticals. Once SWIM took 70 mg of caapi copy after a couple of beers with no ill effect at all.



Wow! That is almost word for word what swim said a month or so ago.

Happened after a particularily bad rue + spice pharma experience. SWIM doesn't recall anybody saying anything good about this combo. SWIM was out of caapi and eager to explore pharma.

Great majority of SWIM's experiences were dark and difficult. She thinks that they are traceable to certain unresolved personal issues. While working on these isues in the consensual reality she tries to see if quality and content of her hyperspatial dreams changes in a positive way.

I thought any orally administered MAOI required the user to stay clear of the long, long list of tyramine containing foods... Have I been misinformed? Does this also apply to b.caapi & chaliponga or chacruna brewed Ayahuasca? Have I been misled?

Won't be the first time...

But I will avoid the rue next time. What am I to do with the 10g I have? Is it any good alone?
And changa is definitely in my future. Research, research, research first, though. I may be an autodidact, but contrary to recent events, I generally don't take foolish risks. Maybe only risks that make me look foolish...?

thanks Trickster, and glad a few things struck a chord.

JBArk

Thanks for the link endlessness. People are so helpful at the nexus sometimes i get carried away and forget to search the rest of the site before posting!

Always nice to cut through misinformation to the fleshy truth below -no more misguided maoi food fear!

Thanks,
JBArk

For those who have read the trip report, here are the pics of the hollowed beast skull I came across. Any idea what it could be?

Still freaked out (but not so much)

JBArk

Thats crazy man, wonder what it could be? maybe a mutant wolf? hehehe

I think the top mandible was chewed off (it's upside down) - making it even stranger looking.