Yes, my rejection of your labeling of my values/belif system must be because it's really nihilistic and I don't want to acknowledge that.

It couldn't possibly be that I find agnosticism/possibilianism infinitely more liberating and find that such a view easily allows me to consider making declaratives about the true reality/unreality of these experiences to be absurd.

Given that according to you I don't even understand what I'm saying (and given my observations of how you have engaged in certain discussions in the past) I will simply bow out of this discussion.

Be well

Has anyone heard of an urban psychedelic legend where hallucinations are 'actually existing as a thing or occurring in fact; not imagined or supposed'?

Snozz, I did actually interpret your comment's as slightly nihilistic, but I know things can come across poorly and be misinterpreted, such is the drawback with the format of these types of dialogue. I don't take much offence these threads. I read back thru some of my own comments sometimes and, especially when I keep them short, I think: "man, that just sounds blunt and arrogant"... so apologies up front.

I equally may have been misinterpreted when I say that hallucinations are not real.

Like I said, I'm simply trying to talk rationally and not philosophically when I say hallucinations are not real. I'm talking 'real' as in fairies and flying spaghetti monsters are not real

When rational discourse is hijacked with philosophical disputation, and words such as "nothing is real", "nothing can be proven", "nothing exists", "NOTHING can be said about that" etcetera are used, then the argument comes to an end. You've already proclaimed in advance that there's no point trying to get you to believe any evidence at all... If I say "1+1=2. or water is H20, or a rock is a rock", and the comeback is "well.. all objective evidence is still subjective, so none of those can ever be true".... I'm sure you can entertain my frustration here.

Of course, one could take the approach that "the neurons firing, causing hallucinations of machine elves are real, physical, measurable components", so therefore they are 'real' in this sense... but again, I'm not referring to it in this philosophical perspective.

I dont really follow you shadow. The way you put it sounds nihilistic sure, but thats not at all how snozz or anyone else was implying.

If one is going to dispute the reality of hallucinations on say DMT, then one should have evidence that the contrast is real in the first place. Dreams verses non-dreams for example, how is a dream any less real than waking reality if one is experiencing it. Especially during lucid awareness.

I think snozz's main point was we just dont know, not that nothing is real. We just do not have the ability to clarify what reality is, what hallucinations are, what dreams are ect ect. So to say with absolute certainty that hyperspace is not real but reality is makes NO SENSE.

The word reality must be defined before we can assume what is real and what is not? To do that you have to go into philosophy to try to determine what the roots of the word are.Or we are all arguing about something different.
If you define real as related to matter, the 'physical' world, then what we are saying is visons , hallucinations, experiences in these strange world are not composed of matter and do not inhabit a position on the space-time continuum like our planet does. The material world reacts with us within a certain band of affect. No matter (oops) how many people we get to run into a lead wall there will always be a close similarity in the effects on the people doing it.
However, considering the known universe is supposedly made up of roughly 70% of dark matter, something we know next to nothing about then how we can say we know anything for certain about reality or whatever that is. Maybe it could be defined as 'local' reality. Reality according to our senses.


You raised an interesting point when talking about the firing of neurons shadow. When this occurs and the neurons fire or dont fire they create a unique pattern, local (as far as we know) to our own brain and at that unique point in time thereby creating our own unique reality there may be the possibility of sligthly different versions but they will never be exactly the same.
Ah I guess this is slipping into conciousness territory but in effect those patterns could one day be the detectable replicable aspect of the experience, the part of the experience that exists in our nmaterial realm, the event horizon . Isnt that how we define what is actual anyway? By observing the effects of something under certain conditions that are perceptible to our senses? Also, as our pokey sticks become more and more sophisticated so does the information available to our senses change and thus reality. So could we say we define reality as temporal and local?

No you may never be able to ride on an entities back in our default human brain state but as we've all seen many things in 'there' dont seem to behave according to our laws of physics which I suppose is why some people posit that hyperspace is the efffect on our brain when we witness the boundary between our material world and this other immaterial world that may have its own laws of physics, a brane.

No, a person is a nihilist when they deny the possibility of knowing things. Thats what nihilism is. Its not a pejorative term though you have taken it that way.



Agnosticism is the end point of nihilism. It follows that once one has rejected the possibility of knowing stuff and proving stuff all theories seem equally likely and it is impossible to decide between them: agnosticism.



No, I disagree with what you're saying. On the plus side though, I'm not telling you that your opinions are absurd or anything like that.




No worries. Did I disagree with you or someone else before? Damn, I have to stop doing that. I was probably convinced about my own views too wasn't I? My fault and my deepest apologies. I'll go an read the attitude section again.




I just don't really think you mean that.

But, thanks for the reply anyhow.

There are countless cultures who see these "hallucinations" as the real world, nd what we percieve to be everday reality an illusion. So it is neither some urban psychedelic legend, nor a legend at all...just a different way of looking at things.

This maybe doesn't count as "urban legend", but it does need "reality check".

Is the psilocybin actually an insecticide (poisonous to insects)? I've seen this on RationalWiki, and I couldn't find any further info anywhere. Does anyone know more about this?

Is anybody really disputing that flashbacks can happen? I experienced a lot of heavy flashbacks, for as long as 6 months after tripping on 2c's. It stopped completely soon after, given plenty of time off phenethylamines, and did not come back when dosing tryptamines. However, it came back mildly for a few days after another 2c-e trip.

HPPD is real... certain phenethylamines appear most likely to induce it, but heavy use of lsd and other psychedelics can also lead to it... Not so sure about DMT; I have never experienced or heard of a DMT flashback.

Here's a one I heard a while back and it's most likely a myth and quite entertaining, but a fascinating concept nonetheless.
"One of the largest dmt production opperation in the world, is led by a guy that is hooked into an IV machine that pumps DMT into his blood continously. To control dosing he has a little dial with which he can control the amount of DMT injected." Supposedly he is been interviewed by vice or something similar, but I can't seem to find it.
Anybody ever heard about this?

" Is anybody really disputing that flashbacks can happen? "

There is a phenomenem that ignorant people claim comes from drugs that they call flashbacks . As the drug isnt in the system anymore it cant be caused by drugs . Its a natural thing that people get . The ones that have taken drugs sometimes notice it and put the blame on drugs .

For example ...... Kids often daydream = a sort of trance that is similar to a weak LSD tip . They havent taken any LSD so they have nothing to compare it with so they dont stand up and shout ...... " Drug induced flashbacks " !!!!

Why should one drug cause flashbacks and another doesnt ? If drugs cause flashbacks why doesnt everyone who takes drugs get them ?

" Flashbacks " have been adequately explained . All one has to do is to do some research . That doesnt mean on websites like vice or youpoop . It means reading books by experts , makeing comparisons and checking their sources . Wiki isnt enougfh because its often writen by ignorant people . Its a start that one should check with things like the encyclopaedea britanica .

On the other side ....... a person claims from his very limited and subjective experience that their flashbacks are caused by drugs ........ thereby ignoring facts and sensible explanations .



" I think snozz's main point was we just dont know "

Nope . His point is that he doesnt know .

NOT AT ANYONE PATICULAR ---- >

Only very ignorant people say that something might be posible because one cant proove its imposible . On the one side pigs cant fly and never will ..... BUT ...... prove that . There is no ultimate proof of anything other than ......... ME . I exist . Everything else is assumption . I'll post a thread about reality and proof explaining what i'm saying .



" There are countless cultures who see these "hallucinations" as the real world "

And they are ? Can you show a list of them please ?



" Is the psilocybin actually an insecticide "

Not that i have ever heard of or seen . Have you ever seen a pile of dead flys under a psilocybin mushroom ? The insecticide " theory " is a theory . MAYBE it has something to do with the silly storys of Fly Agaric killing flys ........... = Its realy the other way round ...... Fly Agaric atracts them and flys love them . Thats more than obvious to anyone who has done any serious fly agaric picking . They are the most magot infested mushrooms that i have ever seen . Some are so eaten through by magots that they colapse whe one touches them .


" HPPD "

= Another ignorant farce . People who have never taken any drugs can see eye effects . I can and i could when i was a kid before i took drugs . I can see snow , or little lights like sperms or little light points with a white point in them or make the white walls change to white green or other colours . Its a natural effect and has been explained . It was reported by people BEFORE hallucinogenic drugs were popular . The only people that i have heard about that believe its caused by some drugs are bad scientists and gulible people that are to egoistic and / or ignorant to admit that its them and not the drugs .


@ vice

Isnt that a reason to never watch things on vice and believe that they are true ? Vice is not a source of reliable information .

@ universecannon

" What other evidence would there be besides experiential reports that rue, caapi, and harmalas are psychedelic at high doses? "

What experimental evidence ? Subjective reports by ignorant people ? Or sensible tests in a lab / by scientists ? Please show real evidence .

" Shulgin, bless his soul, wasn't a fan of harmalas in the first place... so it's not surprising he didn't really connect with their psychedelic effects. "

Do only fans of ignorant theorys connect with their " Psychedelic effects " ? Can we trust fans ?

" just try it and see for yourself. "

I experienced it it so it must be true ? I have done it and so did J.Ott and others and didnt get a trip . Please show evidence for what you say .

" After some practice you can reliably enter OBEs "

Ahhhhh !!!! We have to practice ? We have to convince ourselves that our subjective experience is real ?

What doses are you talking about ?


" I'd like to see some evidence that shamanism " mostly doesn't work". "

Does it cure broken bones ? Is it more effective than placebo ? Is it more effective than faith healing ? Does it work for things that arent psychosomatic ? Could it be that the people that claim to be cured are just to egoistic to admit that the problem was theirs and that it was a mental / psychosomatic problem ? Isnt it easyer to blame problems on spirits and other outside fantasy sources ?

The links you posted claiming to show proof for harmala being psychedelic dont do that . The fist one is on schitzophrenics that have been given another drug as well and the second and last ones come from Claudio Naranjo. . BEFORE you post reports from him you should do some reaserch into him and his claims .

You do understand that there is a difference between psychoactive and hallucinogenic ? A kick in the balls is psychoactive ........

" Abstract

The visions of dream sleep are suggested to occur through a dream mechanism which implicates tryptamine derivatives as endogenous paychedelics. The hallucinations that occur in some schizophrenic syndromes are also proposed to occur through a similar, though desynchronized, mechanism. These compounds occur in the human pineal gland and are regarded as neurotransmitters or neuroregulators. A protocol for experimental verification is suggested. "

Thats scrapeing the bottom of the barrel . Dreams are hallucinations ? Caused by endogenous psychedelic tryptamines ? What typtamine compounds ocure naturaly in the pineal gland ? Is speculation about the brain chemistry of schitzophrenics aplicable to healthy people ? Or did someone read the spirit molecule and believe it and not realise that its crap ?



" Your complete and total dismissal of traditional healing techniques in every culture around the globe dating back into pre-history is completely unfounded. "

Dont put words in my mouth please . I never said that and i dont think that .

" there are also thousands upon thousands of reports of the healing of ailments modern medicine has been unable to treat. "

Please provide links . What ailments ?


" There really is no need to discuss this, because it is a fact as far as i am concerned. "

And thats the problem = EGO = I dont need real proof or facts ........ My subjective experience proves that its fact .



@ universecannon #147

Read your post again please without the speculation = " and I would speculate that he had larger amounts of endogenous beta carbolines during them. " and it fits better .

" The only way I would believe this is if you had some of the weakest rue seeds ever encountered. And even then, it wouldn't demonstrate anything other than the fact that you had bunk seeds. "

Someone get a camera . Bring 10 Gs of your seeds and film me eating them .



@ DreaMTripper

Do you claim that P.Harmala Psychoactive . psychedelic or hallucinogenic ?

" to compare them to that farcial banana skin myth is just trolling. "

NOPE . That comment is trolling . Just because someone doesnt acept your subjective claims doesnt mean that bthey are trolling .


@ --Shadow

" I remember a friend telling me in the club (back in the day), that the best thing for "coming down" off MDMA, Speed or LSD is to drink Citrus "

Yes that was a common claim but it doesnt work . It can be negative because vitamin c in higher doses can cuase warm flushes and other physical effects that can be missinterpreted by the tripper .

The original story might have been muddled up = Vitamin B has been given to patients to stop hallucinations and someone got that mixed iup with storys about vitamin c being an antioxidant that cleans up things in the blood .


@ SnozzleBerry

" Seeing as we can't even prove waking reality is "real" in an objective sense (and have numerous threads that demonstrate just how contentious such discussions become), this statement is rather absurd. "

Prove what you say ........... or is your staement rather absurd ?



@ anrchy

" Anyways, what about the claim that drinking orange juice will potentiate mushrooms. Is that a myth? "

Why and how should / could it work ? Your gut has much stronger acid in it .



GUYS ...... " I had a subjective experience " - " I must be right because i'm wonderfull " . " I like me i CANT be wrong " !!!!! is NOT proof . Its ego .

Statistics are fun

User: GOD

has posted in this thread, the following words:

Evidence - 1 time
Data - 1 time
Research - 1 time
Prove - 12 times
Proves - 1 time
Proven - 2 times
Proving - 3 times
Proof - 6 times
Fact - 12 times

User has provided exactly 1 link.

In the late 90's what was was reported to be one of the worlds largest LSD/Psycheledelic labs was located in a missile silo in Kansas. The material was being manufactured by a chemist named William Leonard Pickard. The silo was owned and the project was funded by a man named Gordon Todd Skinner. Krystle Cole (the Neurosoup girl from Youtube) was dating Skinner at the time all this was going on. She states that Skinner would put DMT in an IV drip and sail the hyperrealms for hours. More information about this can be found in her book. Here is the Vice article where she is interviewed by Hamilton Morris.

Here's a good one: calamus is psychedelic. I personally believe this is conditionally true, but it has yet to be confirmed in any scientific way. Here is one scientific attempt:

http://jat.oxfordjournal...ontent/33/9/604.full.pdf

And then to the contrary, I've encountered numerous people who have had psychedelic experiences:

https://www.dmt-nexus.me....aspx?g=posts&t=9508

I also have a pair of very reliable friends who had a similar experience with fresh, raw root. So what to think? The place I start is with the fact that the diploid variety, which is the main type found in the US, doesn't produce the beta-asarone (or alpha asarone in some cases), which is what causes the terrible vomiting. This would explain why my friends were able to consume enough fresh root to have psychedelic effects without vomiting. This would also explain why doing an acetone wash on the dried root powder before making a tea would avoid nausea since beta-asarone is very soluble in that, but not soluble in water.

What it doesn't explain is the psychedelic effects. The asarone isomers have generally been thought to be the potential source of psychedelic activity due to their similarity to mescaline in structure (and rumor of metabolizing into TMA), so given that the effect is present without them what could it be? Most the papers I came across didn't find any other substances that could possibly cause such effects, but apparently some samples do contain elemicin, which should be washed away by the acetone as well I believe, but is at least somewhat soluble in water. More discussion here and here:

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=13304
http://herbs.mxf.yuku.co...-In-Asarone#.VZXhH0bdZFo

I don't really know what to think of the effects coming out of 69ron's tec. I tried it with some calamus from an online vendor and got no effects, but who knows how old that root powder was.

As for explanation of the fresh root experience I find this a bit interesting:
http://herbpedia.wikidot.com/gamma-asarone

It seems my friends may have experienced a stronger visual effect than 69ron seems to have; they said it very much so seemed like they were in a painting.

It's too bad 69ron doesn't seem to be around anymore to comment on any further explorations he may have done.

I always here people saying that the reason for the negative side effects when you take HBWR seeds is because there is cyanide/something similar to cyanide in the outer shell.

I've heard this, its not either of those but the bad stuff is in the outer shell, and I've heard that its just the active erolines themselves that cause this. I don't really know about any of these but I am suspicious of the last one because supposedly extraction removes the side effect. however I've heard it does not. Also supposedly Rivea corymbosa seeds don't cause the negative side effects.

Any input?

I just like this typo:

Are paychedlics what you can use to get high on a Friday?

It's sad how most people don't know the difference between cyanide and strychnine.^

I wish "acid" flashbacks were real.

Any update on the production of DMT in mammalian metabolic pathways, pineal or otherwise? I thought I'd read that, in the rat model, DMT had been identified in lung tissue isolates.

Peace

I realise I am late to the party but I had a quick input on flashbacks. I've never had any acid or shroomy flashbacks worth considering much.

However, since trying DMT for the first time a few years ago I believe I have definitely had flashbacks.

I'll be looking at something innocuous such as the living room wall and all of a sudden a matrix/faint fractal grid starts to make itself visible. I am certain that this is related to my DMT trips. It is not at all unpleasant.

It feels like the DMT reality is teasing me, trying to hint at it's existence. Could also just be my mind recalling the wonders, granted. But I prefer to believe that the message is 'we are still here, just a scratch below the surface, we remember you. You will never fully escape us now'.