Because of the recent phenomenon of changa I have taken some new interest in harmala alkaloids viable routes of administration.

Does anyone know of any research papers or studies that show that harmine/harmaline/others are active by smoking?

Aside from several anecdotal reports I also have personal experience with smoking these harmala alkaloids as part of a change blend, and personally I feel they are active through smoking. Which is why I would like to review the scientific evidence already present. The problem is I am having trouble being able to find any information regarding this topic.

So again any research papers, published studies, or information of any kind related to this topic would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

-EG

Please utse

There
is
so
much.

Searching is your friend (seriously...try googling smoking harmalas, vaping harmalas, and anything else that seems relevant)

Yeah, the things gone over in those posts are the same anecdotal reports I've gone over a million times, I was actually looking for some scientific evidence, like research papers or published studies.

Thank you anyway,

-EG

Good luck with that to find some scientific studies on smoking harmalas

Scientists don't even know what they are

Just kidding but really do not hold your breath

I'm not sure the orthodox scientific research community are falling over themselves to source funding from their corporate backers to investigate smoking of anything much these days, least of all something as obscure as harmalas

Sometimes, we must write our own papers...

Empiricism rocks! Go for it!

I think you are making a bit of an odd distinction..."scientific evidence" is not limited to academic research papers or published studies. We have good evidence, documented in countless threads, that harmalas are active when vaporized/smoked.

Don't believe it? Design a protocol and test for yourself. Personally, I think it's apparent to the point that you don't need a blind or double blind methodology, but if you want rigor, there's no reason why you couldn't do that and report back.

Additionally, given the difficulty of getting approval for human studies involving smoking obscure compounds, as well as the general lack of interest in these specific compounds, you may be waiting a very long time for such studies to appear.

All indicators point to DIY

Is there even "official scientific literature" on smoking DMT? We know that that works...

Seriously though, it would be rather interesting to have somewhat accurate data on what happens when heating freebase harmalas. To what extent to they vaporize, and at what temperature, and to what extent do they pyrolyse, and which are the decomposition products if any?

No question that freebase harmaline is active. I'm pretty sure ground syrian rue seed is even active when smoked and there's historical data about syrian rue seed tossed on coals in various esoteric rituals.

I'm fully aware that harmala alkaloids are active by smoking I know this from personal experience as well as from the countless anecdotal reports out there.

Believe it or not there is a wealth of scientific data regarding dimethyltryptamine and other obscure tryptamine/beta-Carboline compounds, so I figured that at least some information of this type should exist for harmala alkaloids, the link below is an example of the type of information I'm looking for:

http://www.sciencedirect...cle/pii/0091305782902404

(The research paper above covers a comparative study of the behavioral effects of proteo-dimethyltryptamine from deuterium-dimethyltryptamine, deuterium is hydrogen with an extra neutron in its nucleus, isotopes of hydrogen are the only difference between these compounds, I have loads of research papers and published studies on dimethyltryptamine, even on molecules as obscure as alpha,alpha,beta,beta-treasurer-N,N-dimethyltryptamine.....
I just though that if I have tons of research papers and published studies on some very obscure molecules that there would be some research papers and studies involving harmine and harmaline as well. )

The links below should give you an idea of the type of information that I'm looking for:

http://www.sciencedirect...le/pii/S0006295214000744

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8297217

http://onlinelibrary.wil...0.1002/dta.1685/abstract



-EG

"The links below should give you an idea of the type of information that I'm looking for"

We fully understand that you are looking for research articles.

None of the ones above seem anything close to "research papers or studies that show that harmine/harmaline/others are active by smoking?", but for obvious reasons - there most likely isn't any. There isn't even any on smoking DMT. There is a lot of studies on harmalas in general...But studies on people actually smoking obscure plant/human metabolites are, obviously, extremely rare for reasons already mentioned in this thread ..Cannabis or tobacco is different.

What kind of info are you trying to learn from them? Studies would be interesting but seem pretty limited in what they could reveal...I feel that the best way to learn about smoking harmalas is through experience.

I'm well aware of all of those studies...we actually chatted with Dr. Riba about some of the potential things his metabolism study didn't take into account at the ayahuasca conference in Ibiza.

That said, the studies you've linked are somewhat of a false-equivalency...

The Beaton & Barker paper deals with rats, DMT, and I assume more standardized RoA than smoking (I don't have time to pull the paper at the moment and the abstract doesn't appear to say).

Since you posted Strassman's study, certainly you are aware of the difficulty he had in getting it approved? While it took place "early on" in the recent psychedelic resurgence, you could argue that played a role in the difficulty of approval, but even then, it was with an IV RoA and dealt with DMT. From a sanctioned psychedelic research perspective, I would posit DMT carries significantly more weight/interest than harmalas. I'm not saying I agree with that, just that based on the comparative bodies of research, that seems to be the case.

The Riba study took place in Spain and was therefore subjected to less (or at least, different) regulations than those imposed on US researchers. Additionally, it dealt with DMT and there were some questions about the findings, such as the presence of DMT n-oxide (and whether its presence was evidence of it being a metabolite of dmt or a result of the vaporization/smoking method) and the purity of the DMT used (84.6%...which seems pretty poor, based on burnt's jungle spice analytical work and other analysis).

And the biosynthesis paper has very little to do with the topic at hand, afaik.

It also seems worthwhile to point to the John Hopkins research into smoked Salvinorin. The amount of effort required to get approval for those studies was astronomical. And this research was motivated in large part by the widespread recreational use of salvia (the same could be said for Riba et. al.'s paper). Again, research into the effects of smoking relatively uncommon compounds is incredibly difficult to get approved and with smoked/vaped harmalas, there's simply not the same level of widespread use or interest, afaik.

In response to some of the types of papers you've posted, we could link to all sorts of metabolic studies on harmalas and other beta-carbolines, their effects on microbes in cows' guts, and a whole host of other "esoteric" knowledge, but even though those studies deal with the compounds in question, they don't bring anything meaningful to the discussion at hand.

I hope I haven't offended you, that certainly wasn't my intent. Your initial question was


For me, the response to this is still the question of what would you be looking for from such studies? Ostensibly, you would want them to show you that harmalas are active when smoked, no?

You said you have smoked harmalas in changa. Perhaps try them alone? We know they are active when smoked (you now also say you are aware of this in your last post). So, this leaves me somewhat confused. Why would you need research papers to show you that something you have experienced is possible?

Do you see the root of my confusion? Is there something more specific you are looking for? If so, please let us know and I'm sure someone will have something to say

The links posted were just examples of the type of information I was looking for, I know that none of the links are related to harmala alkaloids, they were only meant to serve as an example for the style and quality of information I'm looking for.

I know it was a small chance that the papers I'm seeking actually exist, I'm actually very thorough in my information gathering and often will only resort to posting on forums when I can not find anything through my own means.

In the past I have inquired about obtaining obscure scientific data on forums like this, and more often than not I would actually find someone who could provide for me the information I was seeking.

I should have been more clear, I'm doing a writing project and I need published studies and research papers that are creditable, and accurate. I can't use anecdotal evidence or unconfirmed rumour.

I appreciate all the response but I feel I was not properly understood,as most the responses were focused on my example links, which were not relevant in any way to my post, as I said before they were only meant to provide an example of the quality and style of the information which I was seeking, I apologize I should have been more clear.

-EG

If I had to be more specific I would say I'm looking for data on harmala alkaloids pharmacology in relation to route of administration.

I've been looking for a few days now, it's very possible that no such studies have been conducted, and the related papers do not exist. Which is fine I'll just have to leave that section out of my writing project.

Thank you all any way,

-EG

It would crteainly be very useful to have more and better data about the interactions between smoked harmalas and substances on the MAOI diet list, such as SSRI's.

Can you elaborate on this?

I'm very interested in the nature of this project, given the fact that it has such stringent requirements for an understudied RoA of a relatively obscure compound.

It's an ongoing collaborative writing, research, and data compilation project involving over 200 known psychedelic compounds.

Harmala alkaloids are not as obscure as you may think, there has been interest in these compounds since the early days of ethnobotany. Smoking harmala alkaloids is not new either, several Amazonian tribes are known to incorporate caapi into smoking blends. Peganum harmala seeds are traditionally thrown on hot coals or stones as an incense, some ethnobotanists speculate that the smoke may have actually been inhaled. Recent research has even found harmala alkaloids present in mummies from the Andes (the link is below) http://news.nationalgeog...081022-drug-mummies.html
Plus with all of the recent use of banisteriopsis caapi and peganum harmala in ayahuasca (analogues) and caapi being used in smoking blends (changa), I would say these compounds are anything but obscure, even to the scientific community.
Though harmala alkaloids human pharmacology in relation to routes of administration is not a topic where research papers or studies can be easily located, I'm confident that the information will eventually surface, until then we are just going to skip over that section and continue on with the known scientific data regarding these compounds. This project started over 3 years ago and completion is no where near in sight, so we don't have issues with waiting until the information exists.

Not all of the research we incorporate into this project has to be government funded or university sanctioned, while working on thionated phenethylamines we used "Sulfurous Samadhi
An Investigation of 2C-T-2 & 2C-T-7 by Murple" for a good deal of our information on 2C-T-2 and 2C-T-7, this study is a perfect example of quality information regarding obscure compounds.
https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/2ct7/article1/

We try to maintain the highest standards of quality and accuracy in our data gathering, we also like the information to conform to the highest scientific standards.

Any way, this is a thread on smoking harmala alkaloids and I feel I've gotten way off topic, plus my colleagues prefer that I don't speak about our project in any detail, so I'm going to just let this one go, it doesn't appear the information is available at this point in time.

Thank you all, I appreciate the responses.

-EG

Just to be clear, the reason I used the term "relatively obscure" is because if you walk down the street and say "cocaine" to someone, the odds are that they will know what you are talking about. Say "harmine" or "harmaline" or "tetrahydroharmine" and the odds are they will not know what you are talking about. Outside of the psychedelic community, these compounds are relatively obscure. Even talking with scientists and psychologists/psychiatrists who are familiar with neurochemistry and antidepressants, I've found that many eyes remain glazed over until you say "MAOI" and many are not necessarily familiar with RIMA.

Hell, ethnobotany itself is relatively obscure. Take it from someone who was in an anthropology department working on ethnobotanical research

I hope that helps clarify the points re: relative obscurity

Regarding your standards, I would again point to the fact that you could design your own dose/response or blind/double blind, placebo-controlled study of smoked/vaporized harmalas. That way you could have some reliable science that you wouldn't need to wait for others to do. Why not be proactive in this endeavor? Especially if you have the patience to wait for someone else to do it. And that would be a pretty cool contribution to the broader community.

Just some thoughts

Ok, I can understand what you mean by relatively obscure.

Thank you for your feed back and responses.

-EG

Is this the type of information you are after? www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3841998/
A couple more have been posted here . https://www.dmt-nexus.me...&m=544990#post544990

Thank you!

Yes those links were most helpful! There was Some really good pharmacological information obtained through them.

Thanks again!

-EG