Hello and welcome..

So I'm not out to offend anyone that practices wicca or traditional witchcraft with this thread, I do respect those beliefs. I would just like to adress the sometimes deceptive manor in wich the information is provided as far as popular witchcraft literature is concerned. I would also like to stress that people reading these books should inform themselves thouroughly on any particular esoteric subject they wish to learn in order to avoid trickery by ill intentioned authors.

Here and there in the mystical sub-forum I have mentioned how sometimes mainstream type magic and witchcraft books are often times laiden with self cursing "spiritual traps" that are very difficult to undo once invoked. IMHO alot of these black magician authors are just trying to set traps for eager magic seekers.

A very classic example of such a trap IMO is a popular piece of witchcraft literature from 1970 where the author suggests that someone who seriously wants start practicing witch craft should first recite a "sybolic" incantation. This incantation suposedly is just a harmless renouncement of organized religion but.....But it's clearly more than just symbolic IMO, this incantation has been used to summon demons since medevil times.

Seems like a fast track way to get beginning dabblers neck deep in demonic activity. Not sure if it would be easy for an unsuspecting individual to recover frm this type of self curse.

So while this is an obvious example of a set trap, there are other far more subtle traps, in liber 777, a informational guide on kabbalah and egyptian magic among other things by Aliester Crowley...Crowley, obviously someone who knew better blantantly includes some of the fallen angels names mentioned in the book of enoch as regular angels. This is a clear ploy to trip up anyone who has not bothered to familiarize themselves with the book of enoch.

Also I have noticed the casual use of an upside down five pointed star by wiccans...
This is what the "official" wiccan meaning of an upside down five pointed star according to the "wicca forum":

[quote]"It's used in Gardinarian Wicca when one reaches the second degree initation..representing the need of the witch to learn to face the darkness within so that it may not later rise up to take control. The centre of a pentagram implies a sixth formative element - love/will which controls from within, ruling matter and spirit by Will and the controlled magickal direction of sexual energies. This is another lesson of initiation.(angelfire.com)
it is also said that the two points uppermost represent the horns of light, symbol of 'the Horned God', consort to the Great Goddess (like the Greek god Pan). (Mike Nichols, geocities.com)"
--
"In my Trad we viewed the upright pentacle at 1st Degree as our reaching upwards towards spiritual enlightenment. The inverted pentacle at 2nd Degree represented our turning our attention towards returning Spirit and our energy to the benefit of the community."[/quote]

-So in my mind this is completely incorrect as in judiasm the five pointed star is a geometrical representation of YHWH or "God". The Tetragrammaton also represents the Messiah, turning it upside down isn't very nice IMO and would potentailly attract demonic spiritual activity I would think.


From the book Mastering witchcraft by Paul Huson, 1970:

[quote]"So enough of all the cant—religious, political, nationalist, whatever. Overboard with the lot of it. And this is where your little gesture comes in. No, we are not going to ask you to burn a draft card or an American flag; the time-honoured tradition of repeating the so-called Lord's Prayer backwards is all you have to observe. Whether you are or were a practising Christian, Buddhist, Jew, Mohammedan,Parsee, Hindu, whatever, make no difference at all. As long as you are living in a "Christian" country, the gesture is most effective.
It is a defiant relic from the days of the great witch persecutions, and though witches used not to be specifically anti-Christian, many of them became so, not unnaturally, with the advent of that tide of religiously motivated oppression and bloodshed. It is a symbol of defiance towards the dead letter as opposed to the living spirit of organized religion.
This is what you must do:
When you are quite sure you wish to take this first step, prior to going to bed on three successive nights, making quite sure you are not observed, light a candle and address yourself to it with the following words. This gibberish is, in fact, the Lord's Prayer written out backwards. It is somewhat difficult to pronounce, but struggle through as best you can. It will be no more complicated than some of the peculiar words of power you will encounter later on, and it will be good practice for you. You should find it easier to say on each successive occasion; the third time you will be fairly fluent. I have
written it phonetically, hence the slight difference from the usual backward spelling.

N*ma! Liv*e mo*f su re*illed tub
Noish*y*pmet ootni t*n suh deel
Suh ts*aiga sap*ert tath yeth
V*g*awf eu za se*apsert rua suh vigrawf.
De*b il*id rua y*d sith suh vig
Ne*eh ni *i za thre ni
Nud eeb liw eyth
M*ck m*d-*gik eyth
M*in *yth eeb dwohlah
Ne*eh 8i tra chioo
R*rt*arf r*a! <<<<<(Yah, I censored it..Eliyahu)

As you chant the words, use your imagination to visualize great iron shackles struck off your hands and feet by sizzling bolts of lightning and disintegrating into molten shards to either side of you. Hear the whine and crackle of the searing flashes as they accomplish the work of liberation, and consciously try to feel the burden of all your inherited guilts, all those awful shalt's and shalt not's, all that vast edifice of twaddle and claptrap, sliding easefully from your back.

When all is over, blow out the candle, uttering the witch words "So mote it be!" Should you feel any frissons of fear creeping up your spine during the performance of what may appear to you palpable blasphemy, it is all to the good. This is a process of purgation and catharsis and often carries with it a certain echo of childhood fears. Don't worry, though; any cold shivers only herald the fact that your deep mind is sitting up and taking notice. It is through your deep mind that you will develop your powers once you have cleared away the litter and debris that usually clogs it, as indeed is generally
the case of the ordinary man-in-the-street." [/quote]


Below: the tetragrammaton, a sacred geometry symbol derived from the hebrew letter number sequence Yod, Heh, Waw, Heh = YHWH a Hebrew word that expresses the Creator force..I doubt it's respectful towards YHWH to wear an upside down one.

the pentagram most likely predates judiasm by a long shot..add to that that these symbols are found accross different cultures..take the vesica pisces for example and it's role in christianity..though it's use way outdates christianity and it linked to both the triquetra(which christianity also adoped and is found inearlier runic and celtic art) and the flower of life.. though this is a discusssion that could easily fill a thread on it's own so I will leave it at that.

Some people I think see the upside down pentagram as a manifestation of pan, the horned goat forest god..which is where christianity got the idea of a satan as a devil with horns..essentailly bastardizing a pagan god that had nothing to do with satan in order to simultaniously convert more christains and demonize pagans through fear.

In reality where again is the relevance to the pentagram within the old craft? Oh yes that is right, nowhere!..as far as I can tell..I have never found any evidence of pentagrams being used in traditional european witchcraft. This is, IMO a new age wicca thing.

This is why wicca just should not be associated with the traditional craft, and wiccans are not witches. They are wiccans. It is a new age thing.

What you have described above eliyahu is basically all a weird chain of events that started with crowley, the golden dawn, gardner and all the cooks that followed in their wake. These people really were not practicing traditional witchcraft, spread so many myths and mixed and matched all kinds of different religious ideologies.

I try to stay as far away from the whole crowley/gardner/wicca thing as I can. Im not against it persay, or wicca as a whole..I think lots of wiccans are interesting people.. but I dont really vibe with it either and it is not a reflection of the old craft that is for sure. I do respect the ecclectic nature of it all, but most wiccans dont seem to know what they are practicing in the first place.

hell dont listen to me though, I also approach Aldous Huxley and Wasson the same way and have some very negative opinions of both so..

People actaully associate satanism(which itseld along with lucifarianism is a whole other topic) with heathenism! lol..how ignorant are some of these people?..and the people that buy in enough to follow it as some alternative to christianity..satanism would be nothing without the church.

Jamie,

I agree with what you said about crowley type magic not being traditional witchcraft... The only part of your statement I disagree with is about the pentagram predating Judiasm. I sort of think that the pentagram in different cultures points to my theory of kabbalah being the original "religion" so to speak.

I have no proof scientifically really other than to say that the tribal-hebrew glyph writing has been traced back to the sumerian and mesopotamian ages so in my mind it's officially debatable what came first paganism or Kabbala-ism.

It's most just an idealogical difference on my part saying that judiasm is older than paganism. I have also noticed most all european/middle ages magic takes most of it's ideas from kabbalah and the old testament.

because I personally believe the whole Adam and Eve story, therefore I believe Adam and Eve to be the first practicioners of judiasm. According to my belief system the Angel Raziel gave Adam and Eve the Hebrew language and knowledge of kabbalah.

I also think the tower of Babble story in the old testament is quite believeable and I think it may be true that some form of Hebrew was the original language until human speech was confounded by angels in order to interrupt our progress. I see similarities between hebrew and even native american languages such as navajo.


I also believe the story of the book of enoch about some of the fallen agels before they were fallen teaching humans the ways of magic. Then people began to use this magic for great evil..So hence the flood was the higher powers way of clensing the earth of all the badness brought about by the fallen angels..So then the story goes Noah and his family were allowed to survive because he was the only one who had perserved the ways of yahweh from the time of Adam..


So that's all just my opinion, beliefs etc.. and my take on the pentagram may not be true but like you say it was never used before the wicca thing and that is suspicious to me..

but either way I think it's messed up for authors to take advantage of people who are usually just trying to better themselves.

"I have no proof scientifically really other than to say that the tribal-hebrew glyph writing has been traced back to the sumerian and mesopotamian ages so in my mind it's officially debatable what came first paganism or Kabbala-ism."

Well, for starters the sumarians were pagans. It was a pagan culture.

Many people also assume sumeria is the source of everything and the oldest civilization recorded..which is only half true..there was civilization durring the exact same period in china as well(also pagan)..perhaps the two influenced each other I am not sure.

Paganism for sure far far far outdates Sumer and these chinese cultures though..this is well understood in terms of dating back neolithic cave art. Here is a link to cave art found in europe(spain) that is thought to possibly predate modern man althogether. So there most definatly were people who seemed to at least be near the brink of high culture and spiritual/religious ideaology in europe even long before the sumerian culture was around..

http://web.orange.co.uk/article/news/spain_cave_paintings_may_pre_date_modern_man

I think we should be clear here.."pagan" means "country dweller"..it does not refer to any one culture..just country people. The church(rome) began calling anyone non christian pagans and demonizing them.

Now, in terms of the pentagram from what I understand goes back to the summerians..

I dont concider the sumerian culture and the kabbalah to be exactly the same thing. Kabbalah is kabbalah and the sumerian texts are the summerian texts. The earliest recorded use of the pentagram was in Sumer. Now, I do know that the Kabbalah is linked to the sumerian texts, but what I dont believe is that the two are interchangabel necessarily, though kabbalah does seem to have roots in the sumerian culture.

In short, the pentagram goes back to the sumerian culture, not to the kabbalah. Whatever it meant to the sumerians is what it origionally meant to humans as far as we know.

"I have also noticed most all european/middle ages magic takes most of it's ideas from kabbalah and the old testament.:

well yes, much of what could be called "high culture" does seem to go back to that area. Hell, even jesus was a jew..

Jamie said:

[quote]I think we should be clear here.."pagan" means "country dweller"..it does not refer to any one culture..just country people. The church(rome) began calling anyone non christian pagans and demonizing them. [/quote]


Ok that makes more sense, I was going off the brainwashed definition....

But I'm still sticking to my story about Adam and Eve being the first Kabbalists..

It's convienient for my beliefs that the great flood wiped out all my evidence....

O well.

[quote]Hell, even jesus was a jew..[/quote]

What's wrong with saying the lords prayer front ward?

I'm only responding to the pentagram bit.


The pentagram.....is a symbolic construct. Give me a compass and a straight edge and some some time and I'll produce one. Fine, it's a tricksee beast, I'll need to reference a book on sacred geometry first and unless you give e a cookie as incentive I'll probably cheat and trace it.



Yeah, it's a symbolic construct, related to phi.

Also related to human proportions. There is Davinci's famous drawing....but I've seen photos of well proportioned humans with multiple pentegrams super-imposed unto their bodies and faces, some with one point up, others with two points up. the regions of the human body that happen to corespond to a pentagram with two pints up...are these regions "evil"? Is that a weird thought? What if I told you one of these regions was in the pelvic area.....have we been having unclean thoughts? How weird is this?



I dunno, MAYBE an "averse" pentagram does somehow invite negative energies....but the two horns up, well.... Pan represents the masculine aspect of nature, a primordial force. Villanizing this, again, it just feels like villainizing those nether regions of our bodies, and I'll have nothing to do with it.

Bedazzle wrote:
[quote]The pentagram.....is a symbolic construct. Give me a compass and a straight edge and some some time and I'll produce one. Fine, it's a tricksee beast, I'll need to reference a book on sacred geometry first and unless you give e a cookie as incentive I'll probably cheat and trace it.

Yeah, it's a symbolic construct, related to phi.

Also related to human proportions. There is Davinci's famous drawing....but I've seen photos of well proportioned humans with multiple pentegrams super-imposed unto their bodies and faces, some with one point up, others with two points up. the regions of the human body that happen to corespond to a pentagram with two pints up...are these regions "evil"? Is that a weird thought? What if I told you one of these regions was in the pelvic area.....have we been having unclean thoughts? How weird is this?

I dunno, MAYBE an "averse" pentagram does somehow invite negative energies....but the two horns up, well.... Pan represents the masculine aspect of nature, a primordial force. Villanizing this, again, it just feels like villainizing those nether regions of our bodies, and I'll have nothing to do with it.[/quote]I apologize if I come off like a Sunday school teacher , that is certainly not my intention with this thread. I am not writing from this from a moral standpoint. My commentary on this thread may be somewhat opinionated but it is not morally based in any way, I consider morality to be irrelevant to the point I am trying to make here.

So I do agree with you that the upside down pentagram can be interpreted as being related to the pelvic region. However, IMO it can can be safely associated with not sexuality as in a "sexually healthy" but has to do very animalistic and "base" human desires such as lust.

The philosophy of "the dark side" more appropriately known as the left hand path, traditionally embraces base desires in favor of or in place of self discipline. The idea here follows the famous Crowley creed of "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law". In other words do what whatever you want, give in to your every desire no matter how seemingly objectionable it may be. Never to deny yourself pleasure in any form. This is sort of a messed up way to say "seize the day"

By comparison "light side" philosophy is more logical. Work to discipline and control yourself and your base desires and you are rewarded for your strength.......This is not a moral statement, it has to do with energy deployment and how a human should properly conduct themselves when dealing with the spirit realm on any serious level.

Pan, the mythological character represents lust also (see below.)

I believe it's perfectly fine to have an understanding of what the upside-down pentagram represents, however I don't see wearing it around my neck, or in any fashion making it "my symbol".

If my DMT trips have taught me anything it is that symbolism is a considered to be very important where the spirit realm is concerned. Most DMT smokers would agree that symbolism and sacred geometry are somehow an important part of the DMT experience. Therefore, it is only reasonable to assume that the symbolism that we project into the spirit world has some type of effect on our interaction with that realm.

When dealing with the "spirit world" I believe it is necessary to present your self as a being who is striving to learn and to better oneself. To portray oneself to the spirit world as someone who embraces base desires and uses that as their symbol seems unwise to me.

From wikapedia:

[quote]With a single point upwards it depicted spirit presiding over the four elements of matter, and was essentially "good". However, the influential writer Eliphas Levi called it evil whenever the symbol appeared the other way up.
"A reversed pentagram, with two points projecting upwards, is a symbol of evil and attracts sinister forces because it overturns the proper order of things and demonstrates the triumph of matter over spirit. It is the goat of lust attacking the heavens with its horns, a sign execrated by initiates."[16]
"The flaming star, which, when turned upside down, is the hierolgyphic [sic] sign of the goat of Black Magic, whose head may be drawn in the star, the two horns at the top, the ears to the right and left, the beard at the bottom. It is the sign of antagonism and fatality. It is the goat of lust attacking the heavens with its horns."[17]
"Let us keep the figure of the Five-pointed Star always upright, with the topmost triangle pointing to heaven, for it is the seat of wisdom, and if the figure is reversed, perversion and evil will be the result."[18][/quote]

And...
[quote]
Pan is famous for his sexual powers, and is often depicted with a phallus. Diogenes of Sinope, speaking in jest, related a myth of Pan learning masturbation from his father, Hermes, and teaching the habit to shepherds.[17]
Pan's greatest conquest was that of the moon goddess Selene. He accomplished this by wrapping himself in a sheepskin[18] to hide his hairy black goat form, and drew her down from the sky into the forest where he seduced her.[/quote]

Also this-
[quote]Neopaganism
In 1933, the Egyptologist Margaret Murray published the book, The God of the Witches, in which she theorised that Pan was merely one form of a horned god who was worshipped across Europe by a witch-cult.[41] This theory influenced the Neopagan notion of the Horned God, as an archetype of male virility and sexuality. [/quote]

For anyone who is serious about practicing mysticism in any form, to ignore the advice of someone like Eliphas Levi who really seemed to be an expert on the subject, seems like not the best Idea IMHO. As far as I am concerned an upside pentagram is synonymous with the mark of the beast. It's fascinating to study about but not something I can get into as far as actually wearing one on my person.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliphas_Levi

when you say "mark of the beast" it does sound dogmatic. Lucifer was a fallen angel..he was also the light bringer. I really dont see the story of lucifer as a negative thing persay.

The "beast" sounds like some christian appropriation of the pagan forest diety Pan..trying to link him with the "devil" or satan..which is just bs.

People think of the beast as a horned god and the number 666..the fact that people associate these thing with each other just demonstrates a lack of understanding here. It is best to be clear about this and not use confusing terms that are rooted in dogmatism.

Even the number "666" and its relation to evil is just grossly dogmatic and based on misunderstanding.

[quote=jamie]when you say "mark of the beast" it does sound dogmatic. Lucifer was a fallen angel..he was also the light bringer. I really dont see the story of lucifer as a negative thing persay.

The "beast" sounds like some christian appropriation of the pagan forest diety Pan..trying to link him with the "devil" or satan..which is just bs.

People think of the beast as a horned god and the number 666..the fact that people associate these thing with each other just demonstrates a lack of understanding here. It is best to be clear about this and not use confusing terms that are rooted in dogmatism.

Even the number "666" and its relation to evil is just grossly dogmatic and based on misunderstanding.[/quote]

I realize it has a dogmatic ring to it. In order to further clarify...

To me, the phrase "the beast" means to embrace the more base and animalistic sides of our nature, which to me is counter to the interest of being human....

I hapen to think it's a perfectly relevant phrase to use in reference to human spiritual development. Just because a lot of crazy televangelists misuse and over use the term des not make it any less valid...

Televangelists and "mainstream" religion has bastardized and grossly represented pretty much every Christian teaching. This does not however mean that I will allow them to repel me away from valuable knowledge just because they don't understand it and they misrepresent it.

I don't really see the connection between lucifer the phrase "the beast" and 666 and I never tried to make this connection. As far as I know the word "Lucifer" is the result of mistranslations and as you say means "light bringer"

IMO 666 is kabbalistic mystery of all its' own having very little if anything to do with satan. I have never encountered Pan or Lucifer during my journies into the spirit realm, but I have encountered the being who calls himself Satan, and this being indeed used the Upside down Petagram as his prime symbol. Obviously no way to prove it's not all in my head or whatever.

My point is..... to myself and I would venture to say others as well, Satan is not a story book character or a mythological symbol but is a real live predatory being that is very serious about his job....anything I can do to make this beings job more difficult, count me in.


To me I am reffering to "the beast" in a sense that it is particular way of acting that is oppisite to being human. Crowley reffered to himself as "the beast" for a reason. Obviously it was not a reference to the forest deity pan but to himself as an anti-christ figure.

Dogma is worthless obviously. What I am trying to do here is not to perpetuate meaningless dogma, my intention is to suggest that people think twice and question every bit of information they are given.,,,,

It has been my observation that certain people who are in a rush to defy the dogmatic ways of church-going thinking dive head-first into studiying witch-craft, overly eager to believe in anything that is opposite of traditional Christian views. My point is, people should thouroughly study all sources of knowledge and not just blindly trade one dogma for another one.

So I know my post may sound churchy and dogmatic, but I'm asking everyone to read between the lines here a bit.

"IMO 666 is kabbalistic mystery of all its' own having very litte if anything to do with satan."

Yes Eliyahu..interestingly carbon contains 6 protons, 6 neutrons and 6 electrons and is the building block of organic life

[quote=jamie]"IMO 666 is kabbalistic mystery of all its' own having very litte if anything to do with satan."

Yes Eliyahu..interestingly carbon contains 6 protons, 6 neutrons and 6 electrons and is the building block of organic life [/quote]

Wow, I actually did not know that...I just got chills...

The first word that occurs in the Hebrew Bible..."Barashyt", can be translated to mean not only "in the beginning" but as "He Created six"

"My point is, people should thouroughly study all sources of knowledge and not just blindly trade one dogma for another one."

My point is that most often these people have no idea what they are studying in the first place, and it certainly is not "traditional" witchcraft. I think we are saying the same thing basically.

i believe some old texts list the number of the beast as 616 rather than 666. also i was told that the number's significance is in six-hundred sixty six, rather than 6-6-6 or anything like that, so the number stays significant outside of base ten math, but this is me parroting theologically oriented christians (who i never much cared for but was raised with).

that barashyt is interesting, seems reminiscent of the flower of life (what with 6 petals and all).

Hey Eliyahu, I did not mean to insinuate that you were a sunday school teacher! My bad for that. I was just trying to comment on your attack of the "averse" pentagram...

Really though, I've never been deeply attracted to that symbol. Where there was a time in the 80's \m/ and every once in awhile, slayer does still rule. Now the thing about symbolic currency in hyperspace, I gotta say, I'm at least halfway with you on that. I'm looking at a couple of highly symbolic drawings on my wall, surreal pieces which explore nightside imagery, lovecraftian stuff and dark occult stuff and contain some "perversions" of sacred geometry.....they are not godawful pieces, but I think they are coming down.



Pan, I believe is about a little bit more than mere lust. A nature spirit, older than the gods. The first god, even. (also the son of Zeus, or of Hermes...this is mythology we are talking about here folks and it varies). The Greeks for years had a cult that venerated Pan, considered him the first being to emerge from the cosmic egg....

Kokopelli. The native american fertility spirit. he had horns (or antenea...they looks like dreads. That guy) plays a flute and has an erection. Yep, Pan was in America.

Panku. Primordial "first man". A hairy man. Sometimes described as having horns. The first being to step forth from the cracked cosmic egg...this was a chinese god. The similarities in story and name are striking.

Pan is a DEEP archetypical thing here. I believe that it is an error to cover him in that devil-sauce....though like any gawd he has a dark side. QUITE a dark side actually! Ever here of Comus? yeah, it gets dark. how about Dionysus/Bachus/Iacho? You've seen zietgiest right? I'm just saying, without getting to bogged down in details, that this Pan guy has been hung on a cross and called the Christ and also sent to heck and called the Devil.




Quick edit.....Crowley, his 666, Lucifer/Prometheus and the beast. These are all about setting one's ownself apart from the universe. Being your own god, rather than being integrated by the gods....That's one simple way of boiling don what the LHP is all about....

Pan is his fullness of form, I believe, is beyond such distinction of LHP vs RHP, though christ would certainly be RHP and the Beast would be LHP, personally, I suspect that neither/both actually apply to the concept/great god/archetype of PAN.

Bedazzle,

I understand what your saying and I respect that Pan is more than just lust, I'm not trying to comepletely slam pan...I mean I have seen pan's labrynth, so I know he can be chill



and after having read a bit more about the subject, I believe the connection between Pan and the inverted pentagram to be a somewhat modern and not at all concrete connection. In all probablity there is not conection other than the fact that the inverted pentagram looks like a goat...

So obviously the symbol itself, in and of itself could not possibly be evil but it's how it's used...I believe alot of people who don't know better put on this symbol thinking it will protect them and bring them some kind of power, this frame of mind potentially activates the dark side of the symbol IMO.

In summary I believe this is a symbol that deserves a certain degree of respect and to go flashing it around just to shock people or what ever probably is't the best idea.

[quote=Parshvik Chintan]i believe some old texts list the number of the beast as 616 rather than 666. also i was told that the number's significance is in six-hundred sixty six, rather than 6-6-6 or anything like that, so the number stays significant outside of base ten math, but this is me parroting theologically oriented christians (who i never much cared for but was raised with).

that barashyt is interesting, seems reminiscent of the flower of life (what with 6 petals and all).[/quote]

Well, there are some weird new age ideas out there in relation to 616 and "carbon 7" also, but lol I am not even going to touch that one.

Couldn't one say that the pentagram as well as the inverted are one of the same?