Experts Say...


This is something I wasn't aware of. Does anyone here have an informed opinion to add?

I can't wait to dish this out to certain people. It's such a drag when people use chemical impalance as an excuse.

So, you can't wait to hurt some people who are already hurting? That's nice.

Maybe these people are right, but do you sincerely believe that depression cannot be caused by problems in the body, and that when someone is depressed, it's their fault?

sounds like a load of crap to me.

It is well understood that the imprints that form early on in a childs development for example set up feeback loops later on in life that correlate to neurotransmitter levles, oxytocin level etc in the body.

This has been directly proven in mice studies as far as I know. Here is a video with Gabor Mate on brain development and addiction that explains this and depression is very closely tied to all of this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpHiFqXCYKc

Often people dont like the idea of a "chemical imbalance" because of the approach big pharma has to the whole thing where they just sell people more drugs that do worse things to them and get them hooked. There are however, often other way of dealing with the issue.

Take MDMA abuse for example..people get depressed after heavy MDMA abuse, because there is a downregulation of seratonin that results..how is that not a chemical imbalance related depression?

The same goes for stress..stress changes the levels of chemicals and neurotransmitters in the body..

Look at people who take iboga and are rid of depression afterwords, while flooded with noribogaine..if there was no such thing as a chemical imbalance related depression that why would certain chemicals that shift brain chemistry more than others(like ibogaine) be so useful in relation to all of this?

Saying there is no such thing as a chemical imbalance in relation here is like saying there is no such thing as a nutritional imbalance. I mean come on, use some common sense and think about it. I am sure there are articles on that same site talking about eating healthy diets to feel well and happy etc..which change body chemistry.

It sounds like the person who wrote that has some issues with big pharma, which I would share..but the rest of it just sounds like bs.

"I can't wait to dish this out to certain people. It's such a drag when people use chemical impalance as an excuse. "

Maybe you need to do some more inner work if you are really just so keen on going out and telling people they dont really have any problems etc just because of this shotty article you read. Sounds like you have a biased agenda, and should do some more research to better inform yourself.

I follow the OPs opinion here. I have been studying how SSRIs work and why they are prescribed and it's a bunch of uneducated guesswork. My gf was prescribed Paxil and all it does is mask your emotions to give you the illusion that your feeling less depressed.

Doctors never do testing I you to see what your serotonin levels are. They just say hey take this. When you come off SSRI's you get a flood of emotions returning to you and you don't know how to deal with it. Depression is usually caused, and probably only caused, by an event in your life. Your body doesn't simply create less serotonin to make you feel depressed. There are many more things going on in your body. Depression is a defense mechanism to help you out of a situation. Keeps you from wanting to continue what is causing it.

Therapy should be the number one prescribed thing to treat it. Not medication. Also interrupting the reuptake of serotonin doesn't completely guarantee that you get all that serotonin into receptors. They have more time to also be destroyed by MAO's.

Maybe yes saying that you can't wait to dish this out to people who use it as an excuse, but could the op possibly be referring to other people rather tab depressed people on meds?

I wasn't really intending on doing anything, other than suggesting that, maybe certain people could consider alternatives to pharma meds.



Ha! Well I guess I did have an ex-girlfriend in mind, when I said that, good guess

She always seemed to play on that "it's not my fault that the chemicals in my head are screwed up" and I felt she milked it more than necessary.


However that's why I like to come to the Nexus to seek informed opinions from those which I might consider to be a little more experienced with wizdom or maturity, than my current self. Thanks for the advice.

Okay, so what does any of this have to do with the idea that a chemical imbalance has no relation to depression? I agree that big pharma creates often more problems than were there in the first place..but that is not really what the name of the this thread implies. This thread is about chemical imbalances in relation to depression and similar states like anxiety etc(they often go together). If you read and listen to the links I posted, there are many cases where this relationship is well understood..Women who were abused as children produce less oxytocin later on in life..infants who are not nurtured and loved by their mothers do not produce oxytocin and so the pathways in the brain associated with love and joy etc are underdeveloped leading to depression and anxiety later in life..these people then seek out exterior forms of these chemicals to compensate(often with opiates)

You cannot dispute this and sound credible.

What you are saying is that you dont like the approach that big pharma takes, which I agree with..but that is a different subject. It does not matter that someone goes to therapy instead, takes ayahuasca, or just tries to gain a better outlook through meditation etc..if the problems arise from early truama that disrupts normal chemical processes and feedback loops it is a chemical imbalance, and they very much have been proven to occur.

"Imo fear of death (death of the ego, reputation, physical death, spiritual death etc.) is the root of all depression and imbalances in the personality and brain chemistry."

Please go click the links I posted before you post. Everyones depression and anxiety is NOT just due to fear of death etc..things are not that black and white. The relation between childhood abuse/abandonment etc and anxiety/depression is well understood.

If this discussion continues on this way this thread will be locked. This is a serious topic that is going to be relevant personally to some people here and the responces should be better informed than this.

This is what I was more concerned about when posting, as the article says



and I've never heard this before, so didn't know how accurate it was.





This is what I would suggest, and possibly healthy dieting and exercise.

It's okay..and I dont disagree with you entirely. Much of this is at the root a problem with the greater society..but how does that relate back to the individual? that realization is not going to help them, because the damage is already done. Certain chemical pathways are underdeveloped causing a very real chemical imbalance. This does NOT mean that drugs are necessary to build up and strengthen those pathways, though something like ayahuasca or iboga can most likely help in some cases. Working with a skilled therapist, taking time to love yourself and meditate etc..these can all help.

I know someone very very well whos family member was working with Gabor Mate in therapy. Basically everyone in the group was from the downtown eastside Vancouver, abused or neglected at childen..depressed and anxious their whole lives ended up addicted to opiates or other drugs. So I followed this research closely because I knew of his ayahuasca work. Childhood development is a very important in relation to the health of the adult. if the developmental environment is hostile, or one of neglect etc this causes so many problems.

Saying it is just a fear of death, or that a chemical imbalance does not exist etc is just an inadequate explaination here, and in a case like this you need to provide some sort of evidence to support this. I have provided links that can explain some of this, if people read them before posting this discussion could be much richer and we can avoid making generalizations.

Okay I hate to point this out, as being the op with the intention of seeking more information, I can’t really have an “informed opinion”

But









Not to be affray, but as the op I’ll say that, I’m intrigued to see all opinions (informed or otherwise), however, uninformed opinions will be criticized and may be dismissed if they don’t hold up to scrutiny

Jamie. Your link and the ops link they aren't at all related. Ops link states that a chemical imbalance isn't the cause of depression. Your link states that lower oxy levels were found. Ops post/link is about how the depression isn't caused because you have an imbalance but rather that your imbalance is caused by an event.

If you are beaten by your dad, your body will trigger changes in your chemical balance. Say in your link, lower oxytocin levels. Increasing your oxytocin levels won't get rid of your depression. It may mess up how you feel because your body is saying, hey the mental issue is still there what's going on?

Anyways your link does not disprove his. It actually strengthens it.

actaully no this is what that article states..

"a depression chemical imbalance doesn’t exist."

Which is bs.

"If you are beaten by your dad, your body will trigger changes in your chemical balance. Say in your link, lower oxytocin levels. Increasing your oxytocin levels won't get rid of your depression. It may mess up how you feel because your body is saying, hey the mental issue is still there what's going on?"

How does that differ from what I already stated numerous times in relation to people needing real therapy etc as opposed to pharmaceuticals?

This thread is now locked for the time being.

Taken from Actual scientific debate

There is a debate as to what causes depression. One side of the field views it as a disorder. The other side views it as a normal process of chemical interaction caused by a source outside the body. Physical abuse for example.

Now it is extremely important this thread stays on topic and without negative communication between one another. We all need to agree on semantics in a way as to appropriately discuss the topic so that everyone is on the same page.

This is not a thread about big pharma or about any topics that are not science related period.

The bottom line is that we really don't know the full story and its fair to say that the 'neuropathology' of depression (WHICH itself ,IMO, is pretty arbitrarily defined) is alot more nuanced than attributing it to a 'chemical imbalance'.

SSRI increases serotonin and makes people feel better, ergo low serotonin must be the cause is superficial thinking in all its (vain)glory.

Chemical imbalance, certainly nowadays, is IMO a patronising way of 'explaining' depression to the lay people but this doesnt mean its been dispensed with.The man in the street 'just wont understand' the complexities involved so this dumbed-down explanation is still utilised.

SSRIs, to take an example, do work- but only in such a clear-cut fashion in people who are 'properly' depressed- hence the poorer response when these agents are used in a wholesale fashion which renders a shit life as being akin to depression.

We've much to learn but its what happens after the serotonin levels are 'rebalanced' thats been the target of research which may be relevant to the therapeutic effects.Heres a good overview of this; do note that other hormonal systems are also implicated and the large number of permutations of potential interactions of these (and probably other systems too).

http://neuroscientifical...is-and-neurogenesis.html


I suppose this also allows the question of brain vs mind to rear its head too.

We think we know alot, but of the total sum of knowledge, we have but just an inkling.

"There is a debate as to what causes depression. One side of the field views it as a disorder. The other side views it as a normal process of chemical interaction caused by a source outside the body. Physical abuse for example."




Mental Disorder..

"A mental disorder or mental illness is a psychological pattern, potentially reflected in behavior, that is generally associated with distress or disability, and which is not considered part of normal development of a person's culture. Mental disorders are generally defined by a combination of how a person feels, acts, thinks or perceives."

Pysical abuse, sexual abuse, abandonment etc are not part of the normal development of a persons culture(unless the culture itself is sick which is a whole other thread). Depression certainly is a psychological pattern, that seems to reinforce negative feedback loops that can lead later on to imbalances in neurotransmitter levels. It is also quite possible that an imbalance of neurotransmitter levels can first occur and depression can follow.

The whole debate above is sort of silly because they are trying to make it out to be either or. Thing are not always that one sided. Sometimes things are far more complex that that.

Take the placebo effect for example..would you argue that someone who believes they will beat a disease so much that they actaully do against all odds does not have some very real physiological ramifications taking place inside of them? Of course they do.

Why does it matter if it started with some sort of emotional event outside of them or not?

The idea that you can not identify it durring at autopsy is a flimsy one to use to make a case here..because it can be shown while a person is alive that there are very real, tangible chemical differences in people with emotional trauma compared to people without past trauma on a similar scale.

I think we both Agree on what causes depression and how to properly treat it.

My main concern is that it is being treated through medication alone and that therapy is being ignored. The consensus is that it can be treated chemically, and I disagree with this. None of my opinions In the matter are biased by an anger towards the pharma companies. I see that there is a chemical change in someone who experiences psychological trauma.

A common idea is that depression can be only a chemical imbalance caused by abnormalities in the brain rather than anything psychological. My original link was not a very good example of what I am trying to convey so I apologize for that. But there are some talk on it in there. I will try an find a better one I promise.

And the doc beat me to it. Although his post wasn't one I had found so I'm glad he posted it.

I'll repost it here. I quote a section of it that hits in the key point I've been tryijg to make.



Corpus's link
http://neuroscientifical...nd-neurogenesis.html?m=1

I think SSRI's are falsely treating anything. They can and have made depression worse or harder to deal with. Masking ones emotions rather than displaying them do they can be understood and dealt with properly.