It`s growing far more quicker this way but how about the potency. Will it decrease

Yes it will.

Why? Can you show some evidence of this? I don't see any reason for loss of potency. You're giving it better roots not changing its genetics.

perhaps it has to do with how long it takes the cacti to produce the mescaline..and maybe that doesnt change with the growth speed...just a thought

Interesting point. With age, the potency would still be equal tho.

I assure you it loses a signifigant amount of potency due to be grafted.



No your wrong.

Even Peyote grown on it's own roots in greenhouse conditions are much less potent than Peyote collected from the wild (harsh conditions).

This has been proven time and time again...

Peyote which is grafted is weaker than Peyote which is on it's own roots.

[quoteEven Peyote grown on it's own roots in greenhouse conditions are much less potent than Peyote collected from the wild (harsh conditions).
quote]

Interesting that SWIY has observed this in SWIYs work. Its an excellent example of how these compounds are use by plants to interact with their normal environment.

I'm not wrong because I was referring to Jorkest's theory.

What are you basing your information on?
I'd like to know if it's such a potency loss that it's not worth grafting.
Or if the speed of growth by grafting is more efficient as to make up for the potency lost in each cacti.
So I'm interested in hearing factual results tested. Even if it's a trip report. Something.
I DO know that environmental stress factors increases potency of cacti. And can be simulated to some degree with grown plants. A lot of people are big fans of grafting. Enough to put the effort in to grafting 100s.
And I've seen a lot of these results raved about but have not heard a dissapointing trip report. So I'd like more information than just "you're wrong".

Grafting is a form of stress. SWIM does not know what the effect would be, nor if actual studies have been done. But many samples with known histories would have to be evaluated to make a conclusive argument. Genetics plays a intricate role along with stress. Stress can certainly influence the levels however the genetics determines the minimum and maxim levels achievable.

Coatl - What makes you think it loses a significant amount of potency during grafting? I see no logical explanation for this. The roots or presence of the other cacti should not influence the levels. It has been shown that the alkaloids do not migrate between the two grafted cacti. It should still depend on genetics and the environment, grafting would make no difference. Why would it be any different? Is this just your opinion or have you read studies?

Also the fact that many people do this with good results implies that the potency is still significant. Again I highly doubt that grafting makes a difference, it is still determined by environment, age and genetics.

Ok ok ok... LOOK!

A Peyote button which is 2inch across and was grown in the wild will be much more potent than a Peyote button that is 2inchs across and was grafted and grown in a greenhouse. PERIOD!



You could graft seedlings and then degraft them when they get large and grow them on their own roots for a few years in harsh (stressful) conditions to increase the potency.

Sorry I don't have any references... but this is fairly common knowledge that grafting Peyote reduces it's potecny... so I don't feel the need to find a referecne. Just check on any entheogenic site. I suggest the Corroboree.



The button just swells and is full of water with little "content". Perhaps the passage of time is what causes mescaline to build up... but I would NEVER eat grafted Peyote!



Stuides. It's been proven time and time again...

Who has proven it? It is not common knowledge. Nor is it mentioned in several prominent texts on psychoactive cacti. Many people use grafted peyote with no problem. I just do not see how the content would be different. I agree that stressing plays a role but a plant can still be stressed if grafted. It makes little difference where the roots are.

What if you left the grafted plant outside?

Also if what you are saying is true, then maybe the plants interact through some sort of hormonal signal. In which case the choice of grafting stock would influence the alkaloid content. I will look for studies, as I know some have been done checking for alkaloid migration between grafts.

Sometimes I wonder coatl where you get your info? I took your advice and looked on other sites. I found a link to an article showing that grafting makes no difference in alkaloid content just as I expected. So there grafting does not matter at all, it has no effect on alkaloid content and allows the plants to grow faster. This also shows that stress may not be as big of a deal as some would like to believe, GENETICS is the key.

Biokhimiia. 1978 Feb;43(2):246-51.Related Articles, Links

[Estimation of mescaline and pellotine in Lophophora coulter plants (Cactaceae) by means of the oscillographic polarography]

[Article in Russian]

Gabermann V.

Oscillographic polarography has been applied for the mescaline and pellotine estimation. These alkaloids produce in 0.5 N NaOH electrolyte a sharp peak within the cathode region of the oscillogram, each of them showing different potential. It makes possible to estimate them at a concentration of 5.10(-6) g/ml. All the forms of Lophophora williamsii were found to contain mescaline and lower content of pellothine, L. jourdaniana--to have equal content of both alkaloide, L. diffusa and L. fricii--to contain pellotine and only traces of mescaline. Plants grown in the greenhouse accumulated the same amount of alkaloids as native plants. Grafting on roodstock which does not produce essential amount of the alkaloids, does not affect the ability of Lophophora to synthesize mescaline and pellotine.

I guess I am going to have to start another thread at the Corroboree?

Here ya go!!!

I think compounds don't transer from the stock to the scion but...



...I think the above is incorrect.

Perhaps in your own observations of cacti grown under your own conditions this potency loss was noticed for whatever reason. The cactis in the study were grown most likely under very controlled conditions and thus a conclusion can more easily be drawn from it.

I do think environment could play a role in potency but that is always the case its environment and genes. As far as drawing a clear picture well done analytical studies are all thats required.

"This Peyote was grafted as a few days old seedling in June (that's only three months ago). It has already sprouted seven new pups!"

from http://www.thenook.org/a.../pereskiopsis-peyote.htm

Forest of peyote

from http://huachuma-valley.com/grafting/page5.html

Can SWIY attest to the potency of such a forest.

I'm not saying grafting isn't a great way to propagate Lophophora, as a matter of fact it's the best way to produce lots of cuttings/seeds quickly! However I strongly believe that grafted Peyote will be much weaker than wild grown Peyote of the same size and weight.

That looks so freaky grafted like that. What is the host plant? Are those peyote any good?

Those are Pereskiopsis cacti which the Lophophora are grafted upon.