is the strongest illusion IMO, any thoughts on this nexus?

I think it's so strong its real to an extent

Search for “free will” on the Nexus, and you’ll see this topic has come up quite a few times.

I agree with you 100%. There is no such thing as free will, but… It all depends on how you define free will.

If we define it as the act of making choices unrestricted by others, then many of us are able to exercise free will most of the time.

However, as physical beings in a physical universe, we are bound to obey physical laws. We cannot “choose” to violate physical laws, so in that sense at least we are not free. Every action we take, every choice we make, is made in perfect agreement with physical laws.

Even if we weren’t physical, we would be bound by “laws” of one sort or another. So if we define free will to mean “unbound by laws, yet not random” then I don’t think it is possible for anyone or anything to be free.

I am conflicted about this topic. I think the time stream of the universe is already set in motion and was/is from the moment of the big bang. So all events and all probabilities have already been set in motion across the multiverse.

So in that regard, there is no free will. Your/our decisions are already made.

However, due to the infinite complexity of one person's life, in any given millisecond of time... just the seemingly random activity at the quantum level makes any linearity/predictability impossible. You NEED to make independent decisions, it's the Tao te Ching.

The ten thousand things rise and fall, we spool through the web of infinite probability taking each path as it occurs. Not random, just so complex it's indecipherable.

Given the person that you are, with the tendencies you have and the very specific history behind you... When confronted by a choice, won't there be one choice that you would most likely take? So it's not as if we are constrained by some outside force- we are constrained by ourselves. It's not that we couldn't behave any other way- it's that we wouldn't.

If briefly say: I think that 50/50. -there is small liberty of the choice beside person limited individual psychological walls. But on more high level on us act too much interested influences. So in total remains hardly at all for persisting manoeuvre. I hope to compare the situation after my death. Much, much curiously enough...

I would agree with most of what you guys have said. In the sense that one CAN make his own decisions, he does not see that he is a mere product of his environment; one cannot control the factors which sprung his existence into place, one cannot control the variety of exposures one is exposed to, and one cannot make choies during infancy. But after infancy the illusion of free will grows stronger as one finds a distinction between himself and others. i believe that free will does not exist but exists so prominently as one learns to define himself further; the choices aren't yours to make but they are at the same time because if you don't believe they're yours to make, whose choice is it?. Paradoxical isn't it?

All scenarios exist. Therefore any scenario you choose is destiny. Free will and destiny simultaneously exist.

Who is free of what.
The thinker? The Seer? The Ego?

I believe this tought is overrated!

Just understand what your nature is and what you want


Anything that impedes shoulds, rewards and "have to's" has to go!

When I meditate I like to be grounded in free will (as in; will not in use). For me, free will is the formless potential, ready to take on form (not free will anymore) in any moment. It will take on a aspect, thus no longer be free, and eventualy return to it´s original free state, ready to create once again. it might be a thought or a movment of the hand, you understand.

We're free to do what is possible within the laws of nature, and in each and every perceived moment, we appear to have a choice.

As free as it gets, in my opinion.

I have struggled a lot with this concept to the point of obsession. I was convinced that every decision I will ever take I have already taken and that I am merely walking on a set path. I still think this to an extent, but not quite.
I a matter of minutes I went from my obsessive state to a quite different one, and all it took were these simple words:
"I am writing the book that He already read"

I think I have a narrower definition of free will than gibran2 has though, but I now consider myself to be as free as the birds in the sky.

I believe one comes to a better understanding of free-will and its own limitations once they begin and continue to get out of the way of their own life. As one realizes that they are a witness of their life rather than the doer the doing parts of ourselves are allowed more free expression. So I believe we have the free will to allow our free-will to manifest or on the other hand, to put our effort into blocking and controlling our free will.

I think that people are controlled by patterns they have created, to various extents. To truly have free will, one must be free of all patterns which might control their reality. For instance, I am addicted to cigarettes. I make the choice to smoke them every day, and in a literal sense, it is indeed my own choice. But it's more complicated than that: my addiction is a pattern I have created, which has gained momentum over the years. I know its wrong, and I usually don't even enjoy it that much, so one would assume I wouldn't continue to do something that I don't enjoy and will damage my health. Yet I still smoke and continue to let that pattern override my free will. So, is it my destiny to die of lung cancer or emphysema? Obviously no, and obviously you all are aware of my train of thought here. But I think it's exponentially more powerful on a larger scale. Consider problems with society, such as bigotry, racism, greed for wealth, greed for immediate self-gratification, ect. These patterns at large are making a "destiny" for us, probably not a fun one either. And these patterns will continue, unless something big happens to override them. Global consciousness awakening? Or just mass riots and violence, eliminating the "unaware" majority of the population? Who knows...

But maybe we do have a destiny, one that is so far beyond our own stretch of logic and reason. Is this pattern-based living going to end in the next step of human evolution? There is nothing stopping us from tapping into our limitless potential except ourselves. So maybe it's our destiny to just get to that point, where we REALLY REALLY have free will. Despite how much I turn over this paradoxical subject in my mind, I will always have nagging feelings of a preordained reality. And its giving me a headache.

I think people are taking this subject too metaphorically, too literal. Like if I made a choice and no body was there too see it, did I really make a choice??? I have the choice to smoke spice, I have the choice to study and do well in school and get into college, I have the choice to drop out at sixteen, I have the choice to commit crimes or live a lawful life, and I have the choice in using the downstairs shitter over the upstairs shitter. Most of these choices can be and are guided by environmental factors, but still you have a choice.

If you are addicted to a pattern you have the free will to stop that pattern of addiction, sure it might be hard but still you have that choice. No matter how patterned you can change your patterns.


Sure why not, how do you know???????????? Or maybe this is a consequence of using your free will to feed addictions that would cause harm to yourself????

Just because we do things that are not positive does not make them any less your free will. It is more of a question on how to make people use there free will for good.

Only dilemma I can come up with is if everything is predestined then are all of what I think is free will actually choices I already made??? Like I may choose to quit smoking, or choose to study, or choose to go downstairs and use the potty, but were all those choices already made for me, and I am just thinking they are my choices, because I can't remember or know any different?????

Interesting science fact, paraphrased badly:

A couple years back there was a study where test subjects were placed in a brain scanner and asked to rest their fingertips on a flat surface. They were instructed to choose a finger, any finger, and then lift it.

And you know what? The lifting of the finger began .08 second before the conscious part of the brain "decided" which one to lift.

Their conclusion was that the motive to lift the finger originated at a deeper level of the subconscious, while the conscious mind created a narrative to explain the experience and "own" the action.

This was reported in New Scientist- if I find the link I'll post it. They've had a lot of fascinating articles on the free will subject.

Indeed interesting.. nice replies nexus, insightful as expected

relevant perhaps?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle

The crux of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle is that, in essence, you can't study a thing without also changing it. This ties into the more general " no free lunch" principle of life in the universe.

...and you are right to bring it up in any situation where a scientific study is cited- I'd be curious to hear more about its relevance in this case.

This was exactly my point, that we create illusions of destiny. Obviously yes, it is my choice to smoke, but you see how when I let that pattern take the driver's seat it creates a destiny for me. My former roommate seemed to think he wasn't meant to major in Computer Science (related to destiny, yes?), yet continued the pattern of neglecting school work to smoke blunts and play halo all day. He used his free will to do exactly what he wanted, yet duped himself into thinking he wasn't 'destined' to do something he never even applied himself to.

But I do consider the mundane choices we make, like leaving early for work or buying a different brand of coffee. Totally arbitrary choices, yet maybe you missed a head on collision by leaving early, or your old brand of coffee was recalled because it has anthrax in it. Chance or destiny? The world may never know.

I personally think that looking at free will as an either/or problem misses the point and distorts the issue. Crowley said, "Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law." a lot of people misread this, and I think take it to mean that we are free to behave any way we wish. In fact, we are free to behave only in those ways possible to us individually. You won't just randomly decide to murder your landlord unless you already have it in you to do so. To restate something said earlier, at any given moment, when confronted by a choice, we will choose the option most suitable to us at that moment. The only choices we have are the ones that fit our life story- and we wouldn't want to choose otherwise; that simply wouldn't make any sense.

So, do we have free will, yes/no? I don't think that's answerable, because it approaches the problem from the wrong angle, like asking whether an apple is square or triangular. We may have something more like self-will, where our choices are constrained by limitations in ourselves.