...Wanted to know if the effects of vaped spice are slowed down (rather then the fast rapid onset) and is less intense if someone takes an MAOI before hand. And if its much gentler, longer and deeper as well.

Or is it the same onset (speed of sound like), then slows down for about an 1hr?

If that is still of any interest, here is SWIM's experience.



SWIM's personal experience is that the spice comes on as fast, if not faster.

One inhalation and she's left this world for 2 hours.
Second inhalation launched her for another 1.5 hours.

The experience was less visual and MUCH more difficult. Probably because rue extract was used as MAOI.

Yes, and it's less visual

There seems to be an odd vagueness here.

MAOI can make the 2-4 MINUTE *PEAK* into a 5-12 MINUTE *PEAK*. The onset is slightly slower and smoother.

The MAOI also makes the 15-30 minute comedown into a 30-60+ minute comedown, though after the peak SWIM would not say one "left the earth" the peak however would be the part where it definitely feels that way.

Also important to note:
with SWIM's experience with sublingual MAOI and smoked spice it was a one-shot-deal with the second dose doing VERY LITTLE.
He's not sure how it works with oral MAOI however.

Ahhhh!

I gotta admit, trickster scared me a bit.

"SWIM's personal experience is that the spice comes on as fast, if not faster.

One inhalation and she's left this world for 2 hours.
Second inhalation launched her for another 1.5 hours.

The experience was less visual and MUCH more difficult. Probably because rue extract was used as MAOI."

Okay, my experience is nothing like either of these, and I've done it quite a bit. I've only used THH and caapi copy, but both are unbelievably wonderful and synergize extremely well.

For me, the onset is slightly slower, but only just slightly. There is a much greater body load, more physical euphoria over all (think pins and needles, waves of radiant heat, etc. - depending on the specific harmala or mix), and what would otherwise be a 5 minute peak may be stretched to 6 or 7. The experience is slowed down just a hair and it's every bit as visual - but if the harmala dosage is too high, the entire thing gets compressed: meaning a longer peak with lesser impact and likely no real breakthrough.

The afterglow lasts considerably longer, is greatly intensified and much more introspective - but I'm back on terra firma, no question - it's an afterglow, not the peak. And it's HIGHLY conducive to repeated journies - one after another after another. Each successive hit seems to provide a cumulative effect to the afterglow - so that after several, I am left with a rather LSD-like experience for up to an hour or more, which can then be recharged periodically with subsequent doses.

Very strange, because in SWIM's case after 2 hours of unbelievably horrible experience and half-way to base-line she took another, more cautious hit and launched for another 1.5 hr. The torture was purely psychological, there was almost no body load. She is still not sure why she took the second hit. Her current hypothesis is that she could not believe that it could be THAT bad and decided to check.



For SWIM it does. She drank about 6 g of syrian rue crudely extracted and redissolved with warm water.

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If one is using Syrian Rue extract sublingually then one is likely to have a harder time than if one was using caapi alkaloids.

Rue REALLY stretches out the peak. ALOT. This is from the harmaline. Caapi contains very little harmaline. Whereas Rue contains very little THH. They both contain roughly the same amount of harmine.

I personally can do completely without harmaline. It is mentally very foggy. I almost cannot remember anything of the previous (*) minutes and wind up quite confused.

My advice is invest in caapi and compare the two. Find out if you like caapi better. I read many posts that indicate that this is the case. My personal experience is that I MUCH prefer caapi or even THH by itself as Art says. They are both really great. Dose small and work up(subL) because too high a dose does sort of fall down on itself or get compressed. Experiment and you will find that sweet spot. Also, 'press and spread' the harmalas under your tongue, do not let them get wet with saliva. Some who are new to subL usage cannot help but have MORE saliva in their mouths and all I can say is 'don't think about it'. When you get the technique down it is SO worth it.


Good luck,

Espiridion

Art put it best in accordance with SWIM's experience. SWIM only ever does THH sublingually when vaping spice. He administers small doses of THH (15-30mg) every hour or so while smoking. The THH seems to allow the smaller spice doses to build up in terms of lasting effects (afterglow) while causing the larger doses to take a much more wild (rather than weird) tone while making it more comprehensible. SWIM's experiences can range from a centered sort of introspection to wild invigoration--feeling like a beast or simply emboldened or energized. One benefit is that tolerance seems to be less of a factor. SWIM also typically never blacks out with THH in his system.

Ok...dont let the crystals get wet with saliva? Thats going to be hard, unless im thinking about it in a different way? Press and spread?
This confused me?

You want as much surface area as you can get of your tongue’s underside exposed to the alkaloids, and you don't want them getting too wet. Place them under your tongue and press your tongue down hard on them, holding them there between the underside of your tongue and the bottom of your mouth. Your tongue prevents them from being drenched in saliva. If you move your tongue too much, saliva will get to the alkaloids and ruin everything. You don’t want them getting wet.

If you use a tincture, spread the liquid under your tongue and press your tongue down on the bottom of your mouth so that the liquid doesn’t get diluted with saliva. Hold it there.

If you taste the alkaloids, you’re not doing it properly. You should not taste them. If you do, that means they are leaking out from under your tongue. After 10 minutes or so, you can release them because most of them have already absorbed.

It’s not as easy to do as it sounds at first. Most people don’t do it right the first few times. It takes practice. But once you perfect it, it’s easy to do.

Remember, if you can taste the alkaloids, you’re not doing it right. There are NO taste buds on the bottom of your tongue. If the alkaloids are held properly between the bottom of your tongue and the bottom of your mouth, there they will stay, and there will be NO TASTE AT ALL. Any taste means it’s leaking out from between your tongue and mouth and getting diluted by your saliva. That’s exactly what you don’t want.

Again, IF YOU TASTE THE ALKALOIDS YOU ARE NOT DOING IT RIGHT. Keep practicing until you reach that goal and no longer taste them.

That's really good to know!!

Im not sure but I think it was gammamore that said you dont need to follow a diet on pharmahusca, but not to drink any alcohol for 48 hours. Altho you do need to follow the diet on ayahusca. Is this true? But aren't you still ingesting the same MAOIS with DMT on either of these experiences?

I remember some one say that they eat a few slices of PIZZA/W CHEESE to help the enzymes build quicker and wat not. CHEESE!!? Thats tyramine! Thats CRAZY!

When I am using pharmahuasca I've never had any bad reactions when not maintaining a proper diet, but my body definately takes to the alkaloids much more smoothly if 48 hours before, I eat mostly fruits, veg, fresh fish, nuts and seeds. That's common sense though really, because you feel better when you eat healthy anyway and the better you feel, then the higher quality of the trip and less health complications in general.

I used to get slight headaches actually now I think about it, but now I'm eating a higher quality diet, these headaches are negligable or completely none existent.

SWIM eats cheese all day and uses ayahuasca and pharmahuasca and never had any reaction of any kind. He even eats cheese during the peak.

You can call it crazy if you like, but SWIM never got any negative reaction at all. Not even the slightest hint of a negative reaction.

Now I’m talking about THH, harmaline, harmine, caapi, and rue. None have caused SWIM to get the “cheese syndrome”. I don’t think it’s possible. These are RIMAs and not full MAOI compounds. RIMAs are not known to cause the “cheese syndrome”.

SWIM doesn't use any diet of any kind before using ayahuasca or pharmahuasca ever. The only thing that I know that interacts negatively is alcohol and a few other drugs. No food SWIM ever ate even while tripping caused any reaction at all. Not even 5 slices of pizza with extra cheese had at the peak caused any effects at all.

Note that San Pedro contains a lot of tyramine and it is added to some kinds of ayahuasca. There are other plants that contain tyramine that are also added.

SWIM has taken San Pedro with THH and the tyramine in the cacti had no effect on SWIM. Others SWIM knows have taken San Pedro with ayahuasca also. This is a traditional combination. I forget the name of San Pedro based ayahuasca, but it is definitely a traditional brew.

So if tyramine was dangerous to use with RIMAs like those in caapi, then why is it that no one has died from these "dangerous" combinations? There is not a single case of the "cheese syndrome" known to be caused by caapi or rue. Not a single one.

I had this conversation before with other people on this forum, and I challenged them to come up with a single verifiable case of the "cheese syndrome" known to be caused by caapi, and they could not find one to back up their argument.

I think this “cheese syndrome” which is a known serious condition affecting people taking prescription strength full blown MAOIs, has little to do with RIMAs. In fact, most studies I’ve seen show that RIMAs in general are relatively safe to use with cheese and require no special diet at all.

Look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIMA



Look here: http://www.patient.co.uk/medicine/Moclobemide.htm



Moclobemide is a RIMA, just like THH, harmine, and harmaline found in rue and caapi.

There is no evidence showing RIMAs require special diets. I believe this is nonsense when it comes to caapi and rue. However, you do need to be clean of certain drugs, like alcohol, which can react badly with caapi and rue. But this is a negative drug interaction, and not an MAOI interaction.

Excellent 69ron

Dimitri-trance, somthing to remember here is, when taking ayahuasca, part of the dieta is for yourself, ayahuasca is all about healing, so it teaches one to look after their body better. As 69ron said, the MAOI in aya and pharma that we use are RIMA's, so while precautions should be taken, there are no known fatality's from not following them with regards to diet and food interaction, though there are some foods that should be avoided(just to be safe) medication and other drugs now thats a different story.

HAs anyone ever tried to get there mouth dry with paper towels stuffed inside in order to prevent the caapi to get mixed w/saliva??

dimitri-trance its funny you say that, swim attempted his first sublingual thh + dmt a few hours ago and thought the same thing. Swim definately felt the THH, but if there were any effects from the sublingual dmt they were very minimal. He used about 20mg THH, without a problem, and used 10 drops of a homemade vinegar tincture 20 minutes later (100mg light yellow spice dissolved into 20 drops between two people) He definitely got the taste from the spice tincture, it was unavoidable, maybe use less vinegar? The pooling of saliva was so strong that it could not be swallowed fast enough no matter what. What happened was really really funny, 10 minutes or so after the spice tincture swim and his friend were both sitting there, with our mouths tilted up, unable to speak and trying not to laugh. So swim 'typed' on the computer to communicate, in an open instant message window for someone else. He typed to her "this is gonna suck when we have to swallow it" and accidentally sent it to his friend. Both swim and his friend realized the lack of context of what was just said randomly to someone and both burst out laughing, spitting up some of the tincture, then swallowed the rest. It tasted pretty bad, but we were both laughing so intensely as I tried to explain to my other friend that I'm not gay and why I just sent that to him. The THH definitely played a role in the fit of laughter that was very much akin to the unstoppable lsd laughs. After about an hour of feeling really good and tingly and giggly, and noticing no real dmt like effects, he rolled two fat joints each containing ~100mg spice, mullein and a pinch of pau d' arco. wow. smoked them in succession, slowly, and definately noticed something different about it. Tasted DELICIOUS. It was way more visual than that much normally in a J. Very deep contemplative introspective thought was easily achieved when closing the eyes, a much more pronounced body tingling than before, and the overall experience lasted quite a while with a brilliant afterglow that is still felt at this moment. As Swim watched the room play with life, he chuckled as he thought of Jim Morrison saying "Enter again the sweet forest. Enter the hot dream, come with us. Everything is broken up, and dances." Swim could not have related more to that line at that moment.

Swim was thinking about maybe smoking alot of bud before doing his next tincture, to get cotton mouth and avoid saliva build up. cuz swims mouth is like a garden hose

So yup...swim tried it today.
And boy did it work!
Swims heart was beating so hard because of the excitement that Swim only took a little bit: 35mg of CAapi CopY and about 4-5 tokes, 35mg of Jungle Spice!
Swim had an amazing time on that Carnivival!

One could use Atropine to dry his mouth - there are 400mcg Tablets against drooling on the market.
Dunno if its a good idea ... http://www.saltropine.com/