Severeal of Ricaurte's studies were withdrawn from because he "accidently" used methamphetamine instead of MDMA. Additinaly the doses he uses in his studies are many times greater than the dose a human would take (relative although this is common in research). See: http://www.maps.org/mdma/studyresponse.html

Furthermore any study that has evaluated "MDMA" users is confounded by the fact that these individuals were polydrug users as well as that they were taking E pills not pure MDMA. It is impossible to establish what chemicals this individuals have actually ingested. Such as the one you posted "Effects of dose,sex,and long-term abstention from use on toxic effects of MDMA (ecstasy) on brain serotonin neurons " and "Chronic 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) use: effects on mood and neuropsychological function?" and anything with Raucartes name on it should be used as toilet paper as that is all it is good for. Also the fact that some individuals with problems may exhibit a higher propensity to ingest MDMA is hard to control for.

With long term chronic use there may be some damage associated with psychological deficits however they seem to be partially reversible. Occasional use is very unlikely to cause any real changes. However again what did these longterm ingesting individuals really ingest? Many E pills have amphetamines present as well as a host of other psychoactive including PCP, ketamine, DXM, BZP, TFMBZP. What caused the changes? Synthetic by products from impure product? These things are a result of prohibition and are almost impossible to control for under the current hysteria.

Regarding the toxicity in animals there are also species specific effects of any drug this is widely known and accepted in science. Example: Caffeine and theobromine is excessively toxic in many non-human mammals however not at all in humans. Also the doses used tend to be much higher than a recreational dose. This will definitely have an effect on the results.

While some studies have established changes from MDMA use others have shown (I will find and post it) that these changes (NOT DAMAGE) are reversible. I am not saying MDMA is non-toxic or safe. I just think that the dangers were exaggerated and only time will tell how serious occasional recreational use really is.

See: Gouzoulis-Mayfrank E, Daumann J.Neurotoxicity of methylenedioxyamphetamines (MDMA; ecstasy) in humans: how strong is the evidence for persistent brain damage?
Addiction. 2006 Mar;101(3):348-61.


Consider methamphetamine appears to be more neurotoxic in vitro and in vivo and it is an FDA approved drug?


I have no idea how many times Shulgin took it although I know he was not into taking a single chemical often maybe he made an exception. Also I do not consider 20 or so times a lot ( a just made up this #) which could be reasonable given the language used so maybe it just depends on what we think a lot is.

Although i have already sayd that i don't take any research chemical, i like to add a nuance as a reaction on how this discussion evolves.

I think that you can make a distinction, when talking about risks, of three catagories.
1-substances that are practically identical to known substances wich are known to be relatively safe, with the same pharmakinetics.
This would be substances like 4-AcO-DMT, or 5-AcO-DMT.
2-substances that are practical identical to known substances that are known to be dangerous or to cause some sort of damage when used over longer periods
MDMA would definately fall in this category, since MDA is known to cause damage to neurons.
3-substances that are totally new, of wich health-effects are just a guess.

I would say that experimenting with category 1 is less risky or irresponsible than experimenting with the other two categories.

I also think btw, that MDMA is neurotoxic like MDA, but besides frequency of use and duration, genetic traits probably play a role as well in how susceptible people are for health hazards.
People who suffer from mental disorders after having used XTC over a long period of time, usually have symptoms that are very close to that of a clinical depression. Wich makes sense because of damage to serotonin receptors reported from both MDMA ( shown in studies of wich the soundness is apperently being questioned here) and MDA.
People with a geneticly determined vulnerability for depression could be also more vulnerable to damage of serotonin receptors by all kinds of environmental factors (like the use of MDMA).

I do not think you can dismiss the role of polydrug ingestion not only known use but "UNKNOWN POLYDRUG" E pill use. These people do not know that what they took is MDMA. Amphetamines can cause the same degree of damage in many in vivo animal and in vitro studies as they are claiming result from MDMA. Amphetamines are very commonly found in E pills furthermore BZP and that class of drugs have only seen minimal studies even fewer in humans. Dissociative drugs another common active adulterant if used chronically can cause brain damage and psychological problems. None of the studies performed can rule this possibility out as not even the users themselves know. You can not always believe the conclusions made by these studies there are ulterior motives not only political but economic as well (grants...) and grad students who don't give a shit either way and just site so and so paper without reading it....

Also in many studies they compare these individuals against "matched" controls. People who go to raves all the time and take drugs may be different psychologically than those who do not. This is a difficult factor to control for one would need to use a complex ANCOVA model and even still there are unknown factors at play.

It is not that I do not think that MDMA may induce some damage and neural changes in vitro and animal data suggest it (there is a HUGE difference BTW between changes and damage: SSRIs cause major changes in the 5-HT system but do not cause brain damage) following chronic use, the degree to which this is relevant "in humans" remains to be effectively established even with chronic use. Occasional use is likely to be safe and thousands of people seem to attest to that. it is difficult to study as there are few cases of people who have ingested pure MDMA only chronically. That said I think there is enough to suggest a link and for that reason I would be hesitant to use MDMA more than on very very rare occasions although I would be like that anyway.

I agree with the role of genetic predisposition. I know people who have taken a lot of MDMA (at least weekly) for at least 3 years and show absolutely no deficits.

"Fine axons with small varicosities originate from the dorsal raphe nuclei, and beaded axons with large spherical varicosities arise from the median raphe nuclei. These two types of 5-HT-containing axon have different regional and laminar distributions and appear to be differentially sensitive to the neurotoxic effects of certain amphetamine derivatives, including 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA), referred to more commonly as "ecstasy." The fine axons are much more sensitive to the neurotoxic effects than the beaded axons, and the loss of fine axons lasts for months and may be permanent. Beaded axons appear to be resistant and remain unaffected following neurotoxic treatment with MDMA. This finding may be relevant to human studies, which have indicated that individuals using MDMA as a recreational drug may be exposed to dosages approximating those shown to exhibit serotonin neurotoxicity in nonhuman primates. A 26% decrease in the serotonin metabolite 5-HIAA was observed in the cerebrospinal fluid of MDMA users. This indirect evidence of a decrease in serotonin turnover in the brain perhaps reflects destruction or compromised function of this fine serotonin-containing axon system. Further studies of MDMA users seem warranted and could provide important information on the effects of selective loss of this fine axon system in humans. At present, the functional roles played by the fine and beaded axon systems and whether the functions are distinct or similar remain unclear. In serial section analysis of 5-HT terminals in the primate visual cortex, the fine and fat boutons appeared to coexist in the same axon, arguing against distinct 5-HT innervation of this brain region."

(from Ch. 10-Serotonin, "The Biochemical Basis of Neuropharmacology", 8th Ed. Cooper, Bloom and Roth)

never was a fan of MDMA, but different strokes for different folks.

I did not mean to imply that MDMA is safe. I do not know if it is or not I do think that occasional use is fine as otherwise millions of people would be reporting problems. I am not an expert on MDMA research and have only briefly looked into the literature. I am skeptical of the statistical studies in humans for the reasons stated. In vitro studies and animal studies while very valuable can be misleading in some cases. My point was to say that more research especially in humans is needed.

2-cb is fucking brilliant. Like MDMA, and like LSD, but not like either. It lasts for 3 - 4 hours, which is perfect, it feels amaaaaaaaaaaaaaaazing on the body, and it comes with the most fantastic visuals. It is the cleanest, nicest, trippiest, most comfortable, most sexy experience ever.



SWIM has tried 2C-i though, and found it to be very intense, long lasting and not very pleasant. SWIM prefers shorter acting drugs because of the increased managability. Although SWIM has taken acid before, it is something you must be fully committed to, and to be done first thing in the morning of two or three days specially set aside.

While nothing induces fear in our nexus members like a big wall of text, I would like to point your attention to: http://www.dancesafe.org...uginfo/neurotoxicity.php which generally seems to show that while neurotoxicity (lovely word) affects neurons, the brain seems to be back to normal within a month. I don't know if this article is out of date, or what.

for some reason I thought 2cb lasted around 12 hours like mescaline..it really only lasts 4 hours?
Maybe I will find a trusted source and try it one day.. I have no experience with any 2c's or RC's..

I tried MDMA 2 or 3 times and found my last experience with it very benificial, but not something I feel the need to repeat. I have seen it's negatives present in other people that did it too much.

and what you're referring to is neuroplasticity.
under normal circumstances, and infrequent MDMA use, this is a given; yet abuse of MDMA has been shown in several studies to erode 5HT dendrites in the raphe nuclei, it's no longer a subject of 90's skeptisicm and denial.

my question though is does that make you stupider, or just unstable?

actually, yes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePfzeyh0B8s mdma people = retarded.

hmm, yes...yes.
quite.

Since when did people ever stoop as low as calling people

"retarded"

for ANYTHING? Seriously man, i thought i'd left school a long time ago..

I have had the pleasure of experiencing a number of various RC's--my most recent was with 2c-e and it was the single most wild, wacky, insane, crazy batshit psychedelic roller-coaster I've ever experienced. It blew my mind APART and I loved every second of it. I've previously posted my experience with 2c-b as well--I've included it below, as well as a piece of artwork I returned with from my experience.

"I've had the pleasure to experience 2c-b on a few occasions. My first time I ended up dosing what was a total equivalence of 48-52mg--three times a standard dose. My thoughts:

2c-b has a very "scientific" spirit. Its creator, Shulgin, really leaves a bit of himself within the compound--I can recall personal "interactions" with him during this experience. It wasn't so much of a conversation or direct communication common to the DMT world, but rather like one was reliving specific mental sequences and thought processes of the man himself.

In short, the best way to explain the knowledge he shared would be to imagine the "real" plane of existence, and the "other" plane which is all that exists beyond this plane--essentially the plane you are catapulted into through the Spirit Molecule. With both of these divided planes, there is the exact center, middle rift of nothingness that separates the two, yet binds them infinitely together. This is what Shulgin wanted to show us through this compound. I specifically remember his joke of "2c-b...tween the rift!", and his "researcher laugh" (anyone who has worked in a lab would know this laugh).

In essence, DMT catapults you over the rift into the rest of what's "out there". Shulgin's creation was a means to literally *stick* you directly on the rift and keep you rooted there. Key note the term "rooted" and its connotations . You could not return to the "real" world, but you could actively observe it for all it was and still reach in and interact with it, like reaching out a window and smelling the fresh spring air. The same is for the "other side". One could actively observe and slightly interact with it similar to the "real" plane. This also accounted for the strange and eerily "real" time-shifty OEV's.

Take note that I do not recommend this high of a dose, as the body load and "push" was incredible throughout the trip. All of this knowledge comes at a price, luckily I had a salted form, and not the HCl binder. All in all this turned out to be a solid 7 hour experience. Below is a sketch that I was told was acceptable to bring back from the experience.

http://img195.imageshack...31/0908091520a.jpg"

I personally know a few people permanently messed us from abusing MDMA. It’s been years since they stopped and they are still messed up. They suffer from all sorts of problems they didn't have before using it. So despite what people are saying in this thread about how safe RC use can be, with personal experience from friends messed up from MDMA use, I seriously warn people to stay away from RCs. Don't risk it. It’s not worth it. If you don’t value your health and see yourself as a human guinea pig, and know you may be permantently damaged by the drugs, and you are completely fine with that, then go ahead and test the RCs. You are brave, and the rest of the world will benefit from the knowledge gained by your human tests.

There’s nothing wrong with being a human guinea pig. We need someone to test these things.

But there is something wrong with people saying these things have little risk. The fact is that the risk is NOT known. That’s why they are RCs!

actually i'd better explain; but due to the limitations of the internet you can't detect the faint tones of sarcasm.

while It worries me that mdma may cause permement damage, I think people should remain skeptical of scientific research.
often researchers will skew data, leave out important facts and generally exadurate minor findings in order to get their report
published. It is a competitive world, the world of science.

Its all in the dose the frequency of use and the individuals genetic make up. All these factors play a role in the effects of a drug short term and long term.

I think there is enough evidence that using too much MDMA is bad but using it a couple times a year for a part of your life is totally safe at normal doses. Same goes for many RC's. But again there are considerable risks so one must always be careful. Causing permanent brain damage is not so easy however you gotta really be abusing your body. Taking many pills everyday for weeks is just dumb and that might not even be enough to cause serious damage. Its just like taking lots of amphetamines but even they take a while to cause serious damage you gotta really be abusing them.

Amphetamines, including XTC seem to have an atractiveness to a special group of people who're extra sensitive to neurochemical imbalance. A disproportional amount of people who regularly take amphetamines has ADD or ADHD or something in that direction.

MDMA may not be the most damaging and dangerous amphetamine, but in some people it can very quickly lead to psychological problems.

But of the close relatives of MDMA, like methylone seem to be much more harmfull than MDMA itself.

A substance like bromo-dragonfly also seems to be quite risky. If a substance is on the market for only a short time and you already hear so much negative news about it, like OD's, then that's not a good sign.

On the other hand, there are many people who have used a 2-c, and thus far i have never heard of any O.D. or negative health effect. So most 2-c's are probably amongst the safer RC's.

Basically i would say that ron is right: Taking RC's is making your own body and brain a research object and taking risks with your phyical and psychological health.

The only substances that are and exception to this rule are the ones that are practically identical to substances that are known to be safe, like bufotenin and psilocin.
The acetylated versions of them have the same risks as the original's and they are more legal versions of existing substances than genuine RC's.

But even of a substance like DPT wich is a variation of DMT, i'm not convinced that it is absolutely safe.
Based on what users say about it, it is way stronger then DMT so it might put a lot more strain on all the mechanisms in your brain that are triggered by DMT then DMT itself does.

I completely agree, my personal experience with methylone suggests that it is much more dangerous than MDMA, because it has more of an amphetamine-like profile. It just feels more dangerous, it had far less "love" than MDMA, and far more "whizz". Massive jaw tension, headaches, no sleep at all that night despite trying, and a horrible crash the next day. horrible.

2-CB to me, just doesn't have anything in common with methylone or MDMA at all. 2-cb felt about the most natural and wonderful experience i've ever had. I would go as far as to say it is as gentle and safe as DMT.

No crash the next day, No headaches, no jaw clenching or anything of the sort.

Dealing with completely different ball parks here, the dosage for 2-cb is only ~20mg which is nothing compared to methylone or MDMA. So, physically, there is far less chemical contaminant in your body.

I only have one experience with methylone, and wouldn't bother with it again. As you say, it had all the whizz, without the love, I felt stimulated, but there was very little euphoria or empathy. Was expecting a bit more, but I wouldn't bother again.

Mephedrone, on the other hand, I've had some lovely experiences with. I think its a synthetic version of cathinone, the active alkaloid in the plant Khat. Very euphoric, a fantastic conversational catalyst, and one feels very sober, and clear on it. On low doses seems to actually increase ones focus during conversations, compared to when sober...I would go as far to say it is one of the most social chemicals I have ever encountered. And although reactions seem to vary, I don't get any hangover, or comedown...its effects just 'stop' and you return to sobriety quite quickly. As long as I haven't drank much, feel fine the next day, sometimes even an afrterglow, and I find sleep easy as well.

Some people have the tendency to fiend it until its all gone...but these people are plonkers...a little goes a long way.

But yes I agree completely on the 2CB...very special material. Had a wonderful night with it a few months ago now...there was a meteor shower one night, and we had each taken a good dose, and layed out on the grass looking up at the sky...well the meteor shower was kind of blocked out by a rather large amount of cloud (did see 3 in 5 minutes though that eve, personal best), but anyway we still had a very very fun night...and some changa was smoked later and this very very powerful and amazing.