Hi,

My enquiry is mainly to determine whether stronger effects than the ones I had are possible (and, whether pursuing them is meaningful for me, but that's of course a personal decision).

Preliminarily, based on earlier exchanges in the chat section, I think it would be useful to suggest what I consider an approach to this discussion, likely to yield us the right results. I think it's useful to differentiate between first-order effects and second-order. So, first-order effects are the direct effects of dmt. The second-order effects are our reactions to first-order effects. Second-order effects are partly influenced by our doctrines, past personal experiences, our psycho-neurological make-up, etc.

Of course, a psychoactive drug can trigger and influence multiple orders of reactions in the brain, even with enough strength so that it exceeds the typical extent of self-regulation. Nevertheless, it is important to make the distinction between first and second order effects, because I think there's definitely some feedback between our mindset and our reaction to the effects of the drug. For example, someone who is predisposed in life to religious/mystical experiences, might state that an "overwhelming sense of paradisiatic awe or magic" is one of the stronger effects of dmt. However, this tells us more about the mindset of the person, than about dmt. To me personally, my reaction to first-order effects was amusement, I found the effects overall comical. Since everyone is different, the reaction to first-order effects will vary from person to person, and therefore second-order effects are definitely an interesting area to explore, but unfortunately not the objective of this forum thread. Here I'm hoping to exchange notes about the first-order effects of the drug.

One final preliminary is the caveat that, of course, a lot about the first-order effects cannot easily be described. After all, dmt is a serotonergic psychedelic: it works by being similar enough to serotonin for neurones to mistake it as that; but because of the differences, it is difficult to recall the effects after they end, and to find the right words for a description. On the other hand, I believe we can still define different levels of effects, using minimal descriptions. For example, there is clearly a very low effect, when there is slight euphoria. Then a stronger level, when the visual effects appear, but only as 2D. Then another level, when the plane opens up in 3D, etc. My question is if there is a stronger level of effects than the one I will describe below.

When the effects were in full swing, my body was anaesthetised. I had a sleep mask and ear plugs on, so the stimuli during the effects originated only in my imagination, I wasn't responding at all to my external environment. I think this minimalistic setting was more practical for my objective to determine the different effect levels.

My body (i.e, I) pictured involuntarily a moving 3D plane overlaid with detailed, intricate, changing patterns. I also pictured a lot of activity and movement in the 3D plane, the activity involving the geometrical patterns that overlaid the plane. And I pictured the impression of interactions, and the part of the mind that responds to verbal communication was definitely engaged (this is, I think, what other people refer to as "meeting entities" ). There was a distinct feeling that it was "right" for the brain to react to those stimuli. My musical thinking was also active, I was working out melodic motifs and rhythms in my imagination.

Do you think first-order effects stronger than this are possible? Could you describe them?

Thanks

P.S.: After typing this, I read a number of essays on this forum about "hyper slap" black-outs, and the effects described seemed stronger.

Hello! thnx for sharing your ideas and experiences I am very careful now about always starting with small doses because the right dose can paint a beautiful picture, result in eye candy, cause much pleasurable sensations, give valuable insights; while that a 100+mg dmt trip obliterates you absolutley. In the worst experiences "I", my conciousness as well as my physical brain, have been so saturated by DMT that my brain has been crushed by it. It felt like the heaviest metal in the world fell on my brain and crushed me for 1 or 2 minutes. At other times I have felt my brain smash into firm walls while in full breakthrough visuals. High doses feel as painful as they sound. There is some insight though...before this I had never known what it would be like to be crushed like that. Another strong experience (80-100mg dmt+harmalas) had me follow a line with eyes at impossible speed and it was so hard fo handle and red sirens were going off and eventually this line came to a hault and exploded in in 8 different directions, forming alarm bulbs at the end of the lines aswell as a dog whose limbs seperated from its body (sort of like in a caricature how the top of their heads lift off and go back down when they calm down.) Basically a thousand ways of screaminfmg DANGER, TOO MUCH.

You could still feel your body after a 100mg dose?
I've never taken such an amount but I've heard that after 80mg or so the experience hits an intensity limit.

I think FranLover is talking about different kind of pain.

Well there is a phenomenon, and i believe that some people use to call it "lifting the veil". And it happens when all you see at first is fractals and complex geometric shapes. But then it turns out that there is another something behind those fractals.

It is difficult to realy fathom, as the fractals may seem infinitely deep or long. But yet there is something that shines through.

I think it can best be explained as something that seems to resonate at a higher frequency. You don't get to see it very often.

Maybe 5-MeO-DMT is a "higher frequency" tool, and can it get you there more consistently, and with a greater clarity. I personally haven't experienced 5-MeO-DMT yet, but from what i've heard it very much seems to be.

Do you think first-order effects stronger than this are possible? Could you describe them?

Most certainly the effect can be much stronger. As you already eluded to, blackouts and whiteouts seem to be the point in which the brain simply switches off for a time, completely forgetting anything that has happened. I likely think this is caused by a self defense mechanism. The mind tries to protect us during times of extreme stress. If this kind of experience is reached, I feel too much was ingested. Although it can be facinating to experience such things, I found I brought next to nothing out of the couple of whiteout experiences I have had. Using your terminology, I feel this would be the strongest level.

Hyperslaps as I have seen them called, are no joke. It can feel like you have been obliterated. I found myself convinced that I was dead. I could find no way out of the confusion and madness and it felt like pure hell. I feel ingesting too much DMT is largely responsible for the very few 'hyperslaps' I have received. I have learned from these experiences and do not expect to ever encounter such things again. Fingers crossed.

Other worldly planes, teaming with what appears to be conscious entities. I always have a very hard time remembering these encounters. I feel like my mind attempts to fill in the voids. I don't like to attempt to describe these experiences. I feel like language some how takes away from them. Diminishes them somehow. As soon as I mutter a word to attempt a description, I fail to bring about the picture I desire. I do not feel that any language can describe it. That is what is beyond the patterns and from what I can tell, it is infinite. Mind boggling infinite. Words are traps for the mind to bottle you back up. You can't bottle the infinite. Seems like it is futile to attempt any description, although I do enjoy hearing of others descriptions oddly enough.

The nothing. Total blackness. Total awarenness. Feels lonely and bored. It feels old. I do not understand these experiences. I can't make heads or tails of it to be honest. I once heard it said that to enable understand what you are, you have to understand what you are not. That is all I have taken out of the nothing.

I am attempting to break down just a few 'types' of experiences I have had. I could certainly talk about further types. I feel like trying to apply levels to these experiences doesn't really work for the most part. Once you are in there, anything can happen. It never ceases to amaze me. I have come out of my experiences weeping for joy, laughing like mad, others I have come out scared out of my mind.

If there are levels, I hope I am a level 50 prestige by now. I do feel like over time I was able to push my experiences much farther than when I first started trying this weird sacrament. What I have learned from all of my experiences is that I know nothing. I feel like a fresh slate.

I think you can push it quite a bit further into useful territory before you over do it. I have no intention of getting the complete brain saturation experience described above, but I would also like to find the upper limit for those deep, panoramic, narrative unfolding experiences.

An example of going further would be what happens (at least for me) as that verbal stimulation you mentioned goes up in intensity. Early in the experience while I'm holding in the vapor or going for another hit, I'll get a stream of involuntary chatter in my mind that feels like it's coming from somewhere else (subconscious?), basically narrating what I'm experiencing. As the trip begins to unfold the voices become characters that materialize in front of me behind closed eyes. They banter with each other and talk at me without my participation. Basically, it feels like the wall between my conscious and subconscious slowly disappears and all the verbal activity that is normally filtered out gets pushed through. The characters that form look like archetypes that fit the tone/personality of the voice. It's completely mind-bending because it feels like my subconscious is trying to rationalize and figure out what's going on (how did you get in here!) by using parts of myself to talk to me while I'm listening, all the while thinking who's listening if I am you?! As the experience fades out the voices become in-separable from my own internal voice and I realize it was me the whole time.

I think if you're still seeing only geometrical shapes and patterns you may still have quite bit of territory to explore because things get very real and very personal.

I'm interested in hearing more from you. I also find the lower doses pretty amusing in a way. It all feels kind of silly sometimes... Even the higher doses end with this feeling of, "wasn't that SOMETHING?!...nope, jokes on you, it's just you buddy, have a nice life or whatever you call it."

as much as you're able to tolerate, handle, remember.

there's always new depths to hit ime, until you run into your personal limitations,

can you hang on as it peels things back, layer by layer?

make no mistake, it can go deeper than you wish to

it can have a you a stuttering, crying, sobbing baby on your knees while coming out of it, having you realize very quickly at it's sheer magnitude and power

it can reward the brave

you push enough, and you can be certain that sooner or later it will push back

hope you find what it is you're looking for