I'm glad this thread exists. Many people seem to like to call LSD a tryptamine, even though I've pointed out to them that it's not and that structurally it is just as much a phenethylamine as a tryptamine. It's a bit of a pet peave of mine.

Anyway, experientially it has elements of both to me. LSD generally gives me a profound sense of clarity as well as a physical energy that is reminiscent of phenethylamines. Yet, it's more like tryptamines in it's ability to connect me with Higher Self and Truth.

So I'm kinda torn as to which I think it's more like. I think acid stands alone.

It's almost 50:50 with people thinking it's more like a tryptamine or more like a phenethylamine. I find this interesting. Different people are having very different reactions to it, a few people find it’s like neither (I should have included that option in the poll). For SWIM it is far closer to mescaline than any other tryptamine (not counting LSH/LSA of course). SWIM sees very little in common with tryptamines in his experience with it. Perhaps the closest tryptamine to the effects of LSD would be 5-MeO-DMT, for SWIM. Mentally, they are very similar, but 5-MeO-DMT produces far more “mind fuck”.

SWIM finds mushrooms and LSD to be almost completely different. The feeling, the visuals, all of it is different for SWIM. For him, mushrooms are a far more dreamy and spiritual experience.

At times, for a brief moment, DMT can be similar to LSD, mentally and visually, but the body feel is nothing like LSD.

The body feel of LSD is present in 5-MeO-DMT to a certain degree, but more so with mescaline. For SWIM, mescaline visuals are like a cross between 5-MeO-DMT, LSD and DMT. The mental state of mescaline is like LSD without the “mind fuck”.

The dreamy quality present in DMT, mushrooms, etc., is totally missing from LSD and mescaline. With LSD or mescaline, you feel mentally alert, with LSD that state can get excessive and lead to “mind fuck”, but with mescaline it never gets excessive.

Visually mescaline is superior to LSD for SWIM. SWIM cannot reach true visionary states with LSD, no matter the dose. With mescaline a visionary state is very easy to achieve.

For SWIM, the main thing that separates LSD from all the others (except LSA/LSH) is that it lacks a “spiritual” element. It feels almost entirely mental, and doesn’t seem to improve SWIM’s ability to sense things in a “spiritual” way.

For SWIM, LSD stands alone as the atheist of the psychedelics.

Well to me it has the overall body feel that I would associate with phen's, but obviously psychologically it has more in common with a tryptamine.

For SWIM, LSD merges the boundaries between the visual and visionary (two very different psychedelic properties for SWIM). While LSD's visuals don't seem to introduce anything necessarily "new" like DMT and even psilocybes can, they can offer a more profound or insightful representation of one's surroundings and oneself. Most psychedelics share the same visual groundwork, but most tryptamines seem to cross into the visionary state at fairly manageable doses. LSD simply expounds on the more sensual (to include visual) experiences--often until they take on a visionary quality. SWIM's few strong mescaline experiences (even once with a brew of san pedro) have shared this quality. He agrees with most regarding the "head-fuck" qualities though (tryps having more than phens).

Also SWIM does seem to have fewer visions and stronger visuals on steam-treated mushrooms than he used to on larger quantities of dried or fresh mushrooms.

SWIM hadn't thought of LSD as possibly being a hybrid molecule...very interesting.

LSA and related ergot alkaloids are prenylated tryptamines. Prenylation refers too addition of a C5 unit. There biosynthesis starts with trytophan to tryptamine which then gets a C5 unit attached to it. Those atoms highlighted in the LSD structure to imply a phenylethylamine skeleton are not from an amino acid precursor but they are from a C5 unit which came from dimethylallyl pryophosphate. Therefore LSD cannot fit the definition of a phenylethylamine. I am being technical but this is how these molecules are classified and defined.

Regardless the effects of LSD and mescaline have numerous similarities.

Technical or not, it still has the phenethylamine structure in it, just like it has an indole, just like it has benzene, and several other structures. How you classify it doesn’t matter. It still has a phenethylamine structure present, and SWIM still feels the phenethylamine effect from it. So for SWIM it's a phenethylamine, even if that is "technically" wrong.

is there anything special about the indole ring? I have heard mckenna comment on this..that he prefers the psychedelics that contain a full indole ring..which the tryptmaines do, mescaline is similar to an indole but doesnt have a complete indole ring so it's not actaully an indole..I have always wondered about this..is there any effects specific to indols?

It does matter because the IUPAC police are always watching haha.

No but yes you are right that it has that skeleton but the way the molecule is defined and classified has to do with its biosynthetic origins. Technically tryptophan comes from another amino acid I think phenylalanine. which both come from the oh whats the name the shit i forget the name of the molecule that is a precursor to both. ah yes the shikimate pathway.

As far as effects go all that really matters is what receptors it binds to at what affinity and what the pharmacokinetic characteristics are. There are many examples of molecules that have similar properties even though their structure (from a 2d view) is very different. They still may fit into the same places you know?



well pure indole is a dangerous chemical to ingest. but the indole structure itself probably has a role in binding affinities and pharmacokinetics that gives a similarity in effects. But this is all structure activity relationship stuff. It depends on many things..

To me, LSD has a very spiritual touch to it. It is not as overwhelming as shrooms or DMT, but definately spiritual.
There is a mystical and spiritual feeling about it that is very strong to me.
Ayahuasce and mescaline are the only things i know of, that have this feeling to a greater extent.

But shrooms, DMT and 5-MeO-DMT have far less of this spiritual feeling for me.

And although LSA has hardly any true psychedelic effect on me, i find that this mystical feeling is even present in this most unpsychedelic ergot-alkaloid.

LSD is maybe not the most powerfull psychedelic, but it has a great quality to it that makes it one of the best psychedelic experiences there is.

and LSD, potentiated with datura and passionflower is something that can rival the best psychedelic experience; that of ayahuasca and mescaline.

I voted tryptamine because:
1)tryptamine is primarily concerned with serotonin and melatonin
2)phenethylamine is primarily concerned with norepinephrine and dopamine

I am under the impression that LSD mostly interacts with serotonin receptors, not dopamine and norepinephrine receptors or reuptakes.

So if
Serotonin is to Tryptamine as
Serotonin is to LSD

then I'm voting Tryptamine.

I'm also under the impression that LSD does have a noticeable effect on dopamine levels, but that this is not the primary effect.

LSD does have a mystical quality to it, but I would not call it spiritual. It’s got that same wonder quality that you get when you think about how the universe works, or how molecules behave. It’s a magical child-like wonder, an excitement about the mysteries of life, but not spiritual for SWIM. It totally falls short of being spiritual, even at massive doses.

But when mixed with passionflower, that’s a different story. Then it’s very spiritual for SWIM.

LSD on its own has a quality to it that is very difficult to describe. It causes an excitement that is unique to it and just a few other psychedelics. It’s like you’re a child again looking out at the world around you with excitement, as if everything you’re seeing is new and exciting. LSH has this quality too. The only non LSD-like compound with this effect is 5-MeO-DMT. But with 5-MeO-DMT it’s stronger and weirder. Mescaline, DMT, ayahuasca, mushrooms and bufotenine don’t have this quality.

Yes, mystical is a better word for it maybe.

It's also that LSD is the second psychedelic i used. Cannabis was the first to me, so in many ways LSD is the substance that has introduced me to the psychedelic realm. That might affect the way i look at LSD.

Besides that feeling of excitement, i find there is the feeling of being in contact with something very deep and ancient.

It's mystical indeed. Like suddenly stumbling upon ancient hieroglyphs. Like the answer to all the worlds questions is sort of looming around the corner, almost within reach.

And the funny thing is that i get that feeling even from LSA, while for the rest LSA has very few psychedelic qualities.
But in large doses LSA also has a bit of that 'alien' feeling, like everything is unreal, like you're not awake but dreaming.

It's like some of the qualities of LSD are in a bit of a disguised and subtle way already present in this LSA, that on itself is not spectacular at all.

I think that people who never done LSD, might experience LSA in a different way. It's probably very boring to them.

I had morning glories before everhaving LSD...definatily not boring..

SWIM experienced all psychedelics (unless you count marijuana as a psychedelic) after using LSD. I think most people my age are in the same boat. LSD was once the most popular psychedelic with everything else (except marijuana) being almost impossible to get. Times are different now though. LSD is now very hard to get.

SWIM used LSD for many years. He’s used LSD over a thousand times. While SWIM was heavily into LSD, he occasionally had mushrooms, mescaline, and Hawaiian Baby Woodrose, but they were very seldom used. Eventually all of the LSD he could get was either fake, adulterated, or was something else completely. He got really tired of this. The clean stuff was getting almost impossible to get. So he completely stopped using LSD and switched to using mushrooms he grew himself. This was when he started having spiritual experiences and started to really appreciate the effects of the mushrooms. Before using mushrooms heavily, his experiences were just classic LSD-style psychedelic experiences. While fantastic, and very beneficial psychologically, psychedelic experiences are not the same as the spiritual experiences he started getting from mushrooms.

SWIM used mushrooms for many years after that and completely lost interest in LSD. He found LSD-style bad trips were impossible on mushrooms, and really appreciated the deeper visionary states the mushrooms produced. But then, several years afterwards, he lost interest in mushrooms too. It’s far too easy to grow too many mushrooms. He had so many that he started getting tired of them and started giving them away.

Then he stopped using psychedelics for a long time.

When he got back interested in psychedelics, he didn’t want to go through the trouble of growing mushrooms again and wanted something different. He then started using Hawaiian Baby Woodrose heavily and then later DMT, and then ayahuasca. He did this for several years, and again lost interest. Stopped using psychedelics for several years, got married, had children, and then got interesting in them again. At that point he had purified LSA and used that for a while. Then he got interested in bufotenine, and then later after learning about the theoretical LSA to LSH conversion trick he started using Morning Glories and Ololiuqui, and finally he started getting interested in 5-MeO-DMT, and found a renewed interest in mescaline.

Morning Glories, Hawaiian Baby Woodrose, Ololiuqui, all vary a lot. They can give almost no effects, make you just sick, make you really sedated and do little else, or give you a fantastic LSD-like experience (supposedly from their LSH content).

From the theoretical LSA to LSH techs, SWIM has had some very deep psychedelic experiences that are on par with LSD.

From SWIM’s experience, Morning Glories seem to contain the most LSH of the bunch. HBWR seems to usually contain more LSA than LSH. Ololiuqui are like HBWR, but not as toxic. When going for an LSA/LSH experience, if you don’t want to do a very thorough extraction, it’s best to use Morning Glories or Ololiuqui. SWIM now always uses the peppermint trick to enhance their effects (supposedly turning LSA into LSH).
No matter which seed you start with, the peppermint trick (when it works) will give them all a very similar effect. But even then, starting with Morning Glories seems to produce the best experience. It can be very much like LSD, but still different. It’s the closest thing to LSD there is, with the second closest thing being mescaline, and he third being 5-MeO-DMT.

At this point in time, SWIM has enough experience with the various range of psychedelics, that he can very easily categorize them into the following groups based on their perceived effects.

Potent psychological effects: LSD, LSH, 5-MeO-DMT

Phenethylamine like effects: Mescaline, LSD, LSH, 5-MeO-DMT

Sedating psychedelics: LSA, bufotenine (very slight, after the peak)

Dreamy psychedelics: DMT, mushrooms, ayahuasca, bufotenine, LSA

Visionary psychedelics: Mescaline, mushrooms, ayahuasca, bufotenine

Clear headed psychedelics: Bufotenine, Mescaline, oral DMT + THH

Stimulating psychedelics: Mescaline, LSD, 5-MeO-DMT, oral DMT + THH

Long lasting psychedelics: Mescaline, LSD, LSA/LSH, mushrooms, ayahuasca

Short acting psychedelics: 5-MeO-DMT, DMT, bufotenine

SWIM’s current favorites are oral mescaline, smoked pure bufotenine, oral DMT + THH, and sublingual 5-MeO-DMT. LSD is no longer one of his favorites. If he wants an LSD style trip without all the psychedelic “mind fuck” of LSD he just uses mescaline. If he wants the LSD “mind fuck” he uses LSH or 5-MeO-DMT. The thing about LSD that SWIM doesn’t like is that after a while it gets tiring. The constant feeling of excitement and the electric feel are nice for several hours, but after 4-5 hours, he really gets tired of it and wants it to end. The trip just lasts too long. LSH lasts about 4-6 hours so it’s just perfect. By the time he’s getting tired of it, it’s ending. Mescaline lasts a long time, more than 12 hours sometimes. SWIM doesn’t get tired of it though. Nothing about it is tiring. It’s pleasant from start to finish and he never feels like he wants the trip to end.

I did not know this, since I had been on a sabbatical from using psychedelics, since 1992. Not in any kind of Holier-than-Thou head trip or anything like that... I just needed a break from the Cosmic Elevator Ride. It can be demanding on one's aura, so a vacation was in order. Of course, it's just like riding a bike, right?



Funny, for me, ingesting LSD quite often resulted in profoundly spiritual experience. While I have had approximately 50% of your journeys with LSD (which is still a lot of acid trips), I have always considered myself a veteran in the field, so I will now toss in my 2 cents worth. I vote for both, as I have to side with the combo contingency. I have had over-lapping impressions of tryptamine and phenethylamine effects, from ingesting LSD-25.

IT IS DECIDEDLY BOTH, from the voyages experienced by Rising Spirit. Yeah, both and somehow... uniquely itself, altogether. I assert that without LSD's arrival, many of us would have missed the opportunity to embrace the more time-honored Power Plants, being byproducts of our modern civilization. LSD was like a great ambassador to the other psychedelics, eh?

I believe that I saw GOD on my very first acid trip. By my third experience, I felt kundalini rushing up my spine (like a geyser at Yellowstone National Park) and I had a very absorbing inter-phase with the Clear Light. I became acquainted with my third eye, projected through multiple levels of consciousness, expanded into the crown chakra, where I witnessed the cosmic pattern of the Grid and melted into the Void. This was loooooooong before I had begun to research traditional spiritual experiences or read about Native American mysticism and East Indian Yogic cosmology. It was completely spontaneous and I found out, after the fact, that much of these awakenings were indeed "spiritual experiences".

Years later, I danced with mescaline, peyote and psilocybin mushrooms. Now, there was something even more distinctly "spiritual" about these Medicines. They seem to have Guardian Allies, who oversee the journeys individuals take into their realms. I wouldn't label them as "religious", however, they had a collective-ness about them, as if they were part of an ancient cult (of sorts). For whatever reason, I have always perceived of Mescalito as masculine and the Mushroom Goddess as feminine. I don't know why but they ALWAYS impress me as having some kind of gender to them. LSD, on the other hand, can seem almost cold and featureless? I can see why you referred to LSD as an "atheist" psychedelic, as it lacks the history, continuity and feeling of being part of the traditional Shamanic journey (that cacti, mushrooms and ayahuasca are linked into). These Medicines seem somehow connected to the mosaic/pattern of a vast fraternity or family of mystics, visionaries and healers (woven into Greater Humanity's ongoing quest for understanding). In this way, their mystical insights are very, very organic and super spiritual.

Richard Alpert (as Ram Das) suggested that LSD was, in fact, the 20th century guardian-ally for the Western Counter-culture of the 1960's-1990's. I agree completely! To me, all psychedelics are equally transcendental, yet some have more of an anthropomorphic characteristic (if that is the correct term), as if they were the Governing Deities of the these older power plants.

Ultimately, each of these psychedelics dissolves my finite sense of self and I am brought to the realization of the Void. If I had to choose a favorite ally, I would pick Mescalito. Mescaline was more euphoric and somehow lighter and more enchanted. LSD is definitely HEAVY, if that's what SWIM meant by "mind-fuck". I have experienced synesthesia with both, yet not with any tryptamines. Tasting sounds, smelling colors, hearing silence, seeing empty space, etc...

I also feel LSD and mescaline are both euphoriants and highly energizing. Not so much with tryptamines. I had a hint of it on DMT. Although, I have had just one single day exploring DMT, it was a Divine voyage and highly transcendental. A beautiful consciuousness. I was truly inspired from the spirituality of the experience (also, it was most euphoric, so go figure).







Wow!!! I must admit I am jealous of your accessibility to these various Medicines. I applaud your insights into the maze of subtle differences, which these substances embody. Thank you, as it is a wonderful list of psychic effects and characteristics! BTW, I also like your name. Ron born in 1969? Or is the 69 symbolic of a Yin-Yang? Or both, like this thread? Either way, I appreciate you posting this fascinating topic! Om shanti.


Peace, love and light, Rising Spirit

Although LSD does contain both a PEA and tryptamine moiety (overlapping BTW) it seem that it binds more similarly to the tryptamines than the simple PEAs. For example constricted compounds that contain the PEA nucleus of LSD do not bind to 5-HT2a and lack HA effects in animals (Nichols has several papers on these compounds as does Glennon I beleive). Tryptamine analogues which are constricted to the LSD strucutre do have affinity at 5-HT2a although not tested in humans they are likely to be hallucinogenic. There was some speculation that the N-benzyl-PEAs and LSD shared affinity for a Phenylalanine residue (340 I believe) via LSD carbonyl and N-benzyl ring however it seems that the carbonyl of LSD does not interact with this residue as mutagenesis did not attenuate LSD binding.


Personaly I think LSD is in its own class and I think many would agree given such an option. LSD is much more psychological than any other psychedelic I have experienced. The mental stimulation and energy I have had on LSD is unique. Many famous psychonauts have addressed the uniqueness of LSD. Pharmacology also supports this as LSD binds to many sites (including DA) that other classical hallucinogens don't.

Although I would agree that there are some distinct differences bw tryptamines (such as DMT and psilocin) and PEAs (mescaline, 2C-I, 2C-B) this is a thin line esp when we look at other compounds. There are tryptamines that differ more with one another (5-MeO-DMT and DMT for example) than the difference bw certain tryptamines and PEAs. For example 5-MeO-MIPT gives effects (OEV visuals and stimulant high) and visuals very similar to 2C-I and mescaline.

People always say how they can tell the difference bw x and Y. To an extent I agree, it def depends on the compounds (5-MeO-DMT, DMT and bufotenine are def distinct) however I also know that I could easily be fouled if in a blind test as I have had such dramatically different experiences even from a single compound. I have heard of studies where "trained" patients could not distinguish mescaline from LSD. If anyone knows of these please post I will try and locate them.

The only experiences with mescaline i have is with cacti and not with pure mescaline. Sanpedro is in my opinion definately very different from LSD but peyote already comes closer to it. Nevertheless i find that both have a very clear phen-like feeling that is very different from that of LSD, and although there is a resemblance with 5-MeO-DMT i would still consider 5-MeO-DMT to be very tryptamine-like and both peyote and sanpedro to give very phen-like experiences.

What makes 5-MeO-DMT very tryptamine-like in my opinion is it's 'freakyness': the part of it that can make you freak-out, that bit of reptilian touch of it. I don't know any phen that has this 'freakyness' that is so typical of tryptamines. LSD does have this tryptamine-freakyness even more than most other tryptamines have it, though.

On the other hand i do find that at the end, on the come-down, cacti start to become more like LSD and this could be because other compounds in cacti are no longer active then, but the mescaline still is. In that case i can understand why some people find that pure mescaline closely resembles LSD in some way.

In spite of all this though, i still find that LSD has more tryptamine-like characteristics.
The closest thing to LSD i've ever experienced besides LSH, is a handfull of powdered mushrooms given to me by some irish tourists who picked it themselves in ireland. Till this day i don't know for sure what type of shroom it was, but i think it's more than 95% certain it was p.semilanceata. P semilanceata contains phenethylamine besides the typical known and unknown mushroom tryptamines (i think we haven't discovered ALL the psycho-active tryptamines in shrooms yet, given the differences between them).
Anyway, some mushrooms (copelandia cyanensis does but p.cubensis doesn't) have in lower doses a very LSD-like character that gradually changes into a more ayahuasca-like character when the dose increases.

Besides this, i also find that high-quality LSD has more in common with shrooms than lower-quality acid. The best acid i had was definately more on the shroom-side than on the peyote-side. Especially when it comes to that 'freakyness' i mentioned and the sharpness and intensity of the visuals. High-quality LSD has that energy and a bit of the warmth mescaline has. In that sense it DOES resemble mescaline. But it also has that reptilian feeling you just don't have with phen's. It also has those very crystal clear visual effects, like you're waring new lenses, where phen-visuals do have a slightly more hazy character, and it's visuals also have those intense sharp colours that are typically of tryptamine visuals, where phen-visuals have more watery-like colours.

Another thing wich is very typical for LSD, and wich LSD even has more than any other substance i know of, is that electric 'throat-feeling'.
I never ever had that feeling with any phen. Mushrooms on the other hand, do give me a slight hint of that feeling sometimes. Sometimes i even get a bit of that feeling, just from smelling fresh psilocybe-mushrooms. 5-MeO-DMT also has a feeling that is simmilar to it, although it is different and feels 'less electric'.

Is this backed up by some research? I've read about these before, but never came across any mention of phenethylamines present in them. Would be awesome if this were true, would love it if you could link to the source of this info, seems really interesting.

Burnt posted a link to an article on it. I don't recall wich thread it was in. In these issues burnt usually knows what he is talking about.

Here is the abstract for a study demonstrating phenethylamine in Psilocybe semilanceata. Note that this is phenethylamine (PEA), not some substituted phenethylamine such as the psychedelic phenethylamines are. The highest amount found is relatively low, 146 µg/g of wet mushrooms or approximately 1.46 mg/g of dried.