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Finally made it out the rabbit hole! Options
 
ozzoes
#1 Posted : 2/23/2019 3:24:31 PM

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I´ve danced with the beast, i´ve bin a complete mad man raving at the top of imaginary mountains, i´ve bin destroyed and dilluted, but i´ve come out the other end and i just wanna share some words with you guys conveing what i (think) i finally grasp.

Psychedelics are substances which, in my opinion, are capable of casting a new light upon reality. They however do not show you anything about reality, they induce a brand new illusion; a illusion even more directly steered trough thoughts since it´s your personal illusion. One can look at these images and take them at face value, analyse them as fact and come to incredible conclusions like the existence of different planes of existence, a soul and god. Conclusions not rare but rather common, conclusions which could not be more wrong; conclusions which I myself held close to my hearth for more than a year.

But when you truly push these substances to their limit and beyond they too break down, the illusion ends as thoughts cease and you can clearly see there´s only being, it´s the processing by us that gives definition and meaning to things, psychedlic or not.

Goals are the walls of the prison, life itself is the prison. Whatever you have, whatever you are, wherever you are; there´s always something beyond. Something, someone or somewhere better.

Almost. Almost my friends.

These as just the ever changing walls of our multi-layered prison, and like any prison you can´t break free from it until you have the entire thing figured out, otherwise you´ll run at walls forever; playing games with yourself never figuring out you are doing just that, playing games.
And the prison is a flawless system, upon it´s walls an instant projection is made of your internal world, a shadow of the self is cast. And like any shadow it´s the form without definition, it´s the story without context, it´s an shallow fragment stretched towards infinity and beyond. This is from where the something, someone or somewhere better arises; it´s a shadow, an illusion.
The material prison is the most common in my world, the western world, and it´s a rather simple but efficient one, it also the one which failed to hold me first.

It´s the system of gaining stuff, filling the internal void with the external world. It´s trying to steer life towards a situation in which happiness persists and bad feelings are eliminated. And this is both its fundamental flaw and primary engine keeping the system afloat. When happiness starts to persist, or any feeling for that matter, you inescapably become numb to it. When the material world still has you trapped this will have you locked tightly in place. The numbing of your senses to the stuff you have, to your so called pleasure or happiness, creates the need for a new source of stimulus. A stimulus greater than the one you currently have, a goal to strive for, a road to despise as you grind along towards your destination; you plus a fulfilled desire. Depending on your nature you can now enjoy this fulfilled desire for a set amount of time, moving comfortably towards numbness again, a new goal, a new road. A wall ever changing but never seen beyond.

So the problem of materialism is the achievement of your goals, it creates the need for new goals. It does fix this feeling of being lost, after all you still have the illusion you are going somewhere. It´s to be loved for what it is, not looked down upon and frowned. For life gets complicated when this prison fails to contain you and the need for a new one arises.
The material prison can fail in two distinct ways apparently different yet much the same. It can happen either by beating the game and reaching it´s end or by being beaten by the game, reaching your own end. The first happens when you realise you have everything you could ever want, that anything beyond this point is simply a variation of the things and experiences you already had and that none of those solve the problem of being you. What ever you do, whatever you have, you are still you being you. The alternative to this is consistently failing at getting what you want, making you finally give up on the external world and venture into the internal one. Once gain you realise that whatever you can´t do or don´t have, it´s still you being the one that can´t do or doesn´t have. No material thing is going to help you escape you.

This is where the spiritual prison comes in to save the day!

When the material world is a square prison, the spiritual world is a circular prison within this. The spiritual prison will erect walls closely surrounding you safely locking out the material world. The path towards ego dead may now be treaded upon, once again you are heading somewhere! And somewhere is still this place where happiness persists and bad feelings are eliminated, this time trough the act of ´enlightenment´, better described as detachment.

Whilst the walls of the material world are immensely diverse and complex and keep your attention firmly upon the external world, these walls will turn you inward denouncing the external world. Craving the endless pleasure material things can never bring, the spiritual seeker is lost and needs a leader. This is where guru´s and mystics come in; the only difference between them and a madman being the way in which they are capable of presenting their ideas and the crowd upon which they do so. A wiseman is nothing more then a man which has lost faith in the external world, seeing trough the illusion or failing out of love with it, presenting his viewpoints with confidence upon a crowd of seekers. Seekers are by definition people lacking any form of confidence, disillusioned with the lie they lived all their lives and desperately searching for a new one, a new escape from being.
A guru will happily provide you just this, he´ll always present you with an image you´ll never reach. He´ll be wise beyond infinity and posses skills ordinary man can hardly imagine being real. The guru apparently has no ego, yet he sits in front of a vast crowd starring at him like he´s a god swimming in their faith. But how does a creature of no ego end up in a situation like that, what drives a creature of no ego? Is it love for humanity? The believe the truth needs to be heard? A truly wise person knows there is no truth, so is he knowingly lying to you by stating there is such a thing as enlightenment? Freedom from your attatchments trough detachment? Whatever he is doing, the very fact there is doing means he´s just like you, only leading instead of seeking; but you´re both going nowhere.

The unreachable is once again the primary engine keeping the prison functioning, yet it´s also the very thing that might destroy it. The primary question that might lead to the collapse of the spiritual prison is what do you do after reaching enlightenment? The only people in the public which are apparently enlightened are the very guru´s advertising this state, they are still stuck in the same world being themselves.

When these prisons collapse true enlightenment may be reached. This is not a state of mind but a deep understanding of that which can really not be understood. It´s the intimate knowledge you are going nowhere whatever you try, the situation will always be the same; you. The best avenue is now plain acceptance of what is, its finally grasping the concept of what heaven can be. Its living with a profound sense of attached detachment; playing the game without any stake in it´s outcome.

For heaven is the experience of happiness, it´s an experience born trough the experience of unhappiness which itself can only be reached trough happiness; it´s the endless feedback loop oscillating between contrasts, its live and that my friends, is plain heaven.
Only life persists trough death.

 

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DmnStr8
#2 Posted : 2/23/2019 4:06:49 PM

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I enjoyed your presentation!

I have thought a time or two about this whole deal we got going on here on earth as a prison of sorts. What if we are all a bunch of no good, rascally, out of control gods of some sort that broke some universal laws and we were all sentenced to EARTH! Hardcore!!

On a more serious note. I feel like there is some part of me that chose to come here and reside in this body at this time and place. If it is a choice, then it surely is no prison, it is a vessel. Even with all the games and mistakes and pain and suffering. I agree with you that these negativities that we experience in life do give a greater value to happiness, compassion and love. They do provide a contrast. The shadow of us all is our greatest teacher. It points directly towards what we seek.

I like to sit by rivers. It all makes sense to me there. We are like water. Just have to go with the flow. It is a beautiful thing if your not fighting it! Letting go into the flow of this life. Giving gratitude for the rocks and other obstacles, which churn the river and give it texture and character.

Sparknotes wrote:
Vasudeva, the enlightened ferryman, is the guide who finally leads Siddhartha to enlightenment. Siddhartha first meets Vasudeva after leaving Gotama and Govinda and immediately notices Vasudeva’s serenity. Although Vasudeva lives within this world, his presence seems to transcend it, and all who meet him feel his divine, enlightened energy. He does not boast about his power or wisdom but simply credits all knowledge he has to the river. His primary action, other than ferrying passengers across the river, seems to be listening to whatever wisdom the river imparts to him. He is such a powerful figure that when a desperate, suicidal Siddhartha, convinced he’ll never reach enlightenment, encounters Vasudeva a second time, he asks to become Vasudeva’s apprentice. In a way, Siddhartha relies on Vasudeva to save his life.

Vasudeva does not teach Siddhartha a complicated philosophical belief system, only that he should learn from the river and allow it to explain its wisdom. Throughout Siddhartha’s spiritual progression, Vasudeva keeps him moving in the right direction by prompting him to listen to the river whenever he has questions or doubts. In a bittersweet ending to their time together, Siddhartha’s achievement of Nirvana coincides with the end of Vasudeva’s time on the river and on earth. Vasudeva, who has literally and figuratively ferried Siddhartha to enlightenment, can now leave the earth, with Siddhartha taking over as ferryman. Vasudeva will live on in Siddhartha’s own enlightenment and teachings.

Vasudeva is a name for Krishna, an incarnation of Vishnu, one of the powerful gods in a Hindu trinity, and means “he who lives in all thoughts, and who lives in all people.” He is the most godlike figure within the book, yet he acts with surprising humility.

https://www.sparknotes.c...rtha/character/vasudeva/
"In the universe there is an immeasurable, indescribable force which shamans call intent, and absolutely everything that exists in the entire cosmos is attached to intent by a connecting link." ~Carlos Castaneda
 
GoneWiththeWind
#3 Posted : 2/23/2019 6:30:48 PM

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I think we've basically came to the same conclusion... It is what it is. Everyone wants to rationalize it and put a label on it but as soon as you do you've lost the point. It's right here, right now, staring you in the face. That's all.

In my opinion the prisons are actually a godsend (not literally). Without them, what is the alternative? Sit content in the void? At least we have something to do. At the end of the day, I enjoy working towards goals, exploring and thinking about the material universe, exploring my own consciousness, etc.

The funny thing for me is that psychedelics didn't introduce me to this perspective, it happened slowly as I've matured, and I think that's the case for most people. What psychs do for me is allow me to really perceive this conclusion in a way that I can't while sober. I have a much better grasp of nothingness and the infinite while tripping, I can feel it down to my bones.
 
xss27
#4 Posted : 2/23/2019 6:52:50 PM

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ozzoes wrote:
The unreachable is once again the primary engine keeping the prison functioning, yet it´s also the very thing that might destroy it. The primary question that might lead to the collapse of the spiritual prison is what do you do after reaching enlightenment? The only people in the public which are apparently enlightened are the very guru´s advertising this state, they are still stuck in the same world being themselves.

When these prisons collapse true enlightenment may be reached. This is not a state of mind but a deep understanding of that which can really not be understood. It´s the intimate knowledge you are going nowhere whatever you try, the situation will always be the same; you. The best avenue is now plain acceptance of what is, its finally grasping the concept of what heaven can be. Its living with a profound sense of attached detachment; playing the game without any stake in it´s outcome.

For heaven is the experience of happiness, it´s an experience born trough the experience of unhappiness which itself can only be reached trough happiness; it´s the endless feedback loop oscillating between contrasts, its live and that my friends, is plain heaven.


This is why I would not recommend consistent psychedelic use to anyone genuinely looking for answers. I can see insights in your thinking, mental realisations, but it has been coloured by your psychedelic use and your thought processes.

You are quite right that they can create as much illusion as they destroy. It's quite easy to get lost in a fantasy land or train of thought that persists long after the fact. Again, reason to not indulge persistently if you value clarity of thinking and mind - the very tools you need if you want to get at Truth.

In regards to post-Enlightenment, things carry on much as they were before. You don't become that without some level of physical and mental adjustments first which then continue after the dissolution of the ego. What changes is the identification with doing - you're not doing any of this now even.. it's just ego claiming ownership.

True happiness is to be beyond the need for happiness, in the still silence.

 
Exitwound
#5 Posted : 2/23/2019 7:40:27 PM

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Thanks for making this post.

But I think - replace word "prison" with "wonderful gift of being" and you won't be wrong.

My point is: write your story however mundane it can seem to you. As the One is not just simply being God but rather godding at the same time. It is you and me and your posting and your story. It is the glorious song of existence and being and grievous story of death and decay at the same time. It is you and "being you" and "not being you" and being you to some degree all at the same time.

It is the glory of being versus the void and there can not be one without another.

Great post and great topic Love
 
332211
#6 Posted : 2/23/2019 7:42:06 PM

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the illusion of the material breaks for me too. i see man made things and compared to anything living, they are just makeshift tries to play [god]. humans can not create a single atom, which let all their works appear as a child's painting compared to nature.

but since i tried to improve my life, which also involves escaping the treadmill and rat race of western culture, i found deep satisfaction - still not stable - but the quality of life has improved drastically. deep connections and profound joy, especially while dancing and shutting language out to be deeply in the present moment.

and for this, i need to play. and a good state of mind helps to improve my meditation, which again improves the way in which i perceive the world. my path: realizing that drugs, sugar, salt, orgasms, internet-surfing, listening to music without dancing, are all a trap; working out, meditating regualarly - john yates, eating "just" fruit, vegetables, nuts and some fish help me on my path tremendously.

and then i found connection to [god] lately, through the realisation that man made things are nothing compared to nature. and this leaves me with a deep satisfaction, that lingers around whenever i recall the thought and the [demons] i aquired on my dmt trips ("you are trapped in this FOREVER" - i felt forever... ugh...) are gone and exchanged with the [paradise] i experienced before the [demons] tried to and finally violently entered in one of my trips.

this drastic improvement is caused by the complete package. just the thought alone will not improve anything (i guess?!), because if your body gives you constant negative feedback - cravings - the thought is meaningless.

ozzoes what's your view on that? am i on the way to leave the prison, or am i just playing games? or do i just get transferred into "a bigger enclosure/prison/zoo/whatever?
 
ozzoes
#7 Posted : 2/23/2019 8:03:26 PM

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I´m so excited about all the reactions I have received! Thanks guys!

@Damnst8

This is exactly why I love and hate words at the same time haha. Their wonderful things for channelling your inner thoughts but there´s no guarantee that what you say or write gets interpreted as the very thing you intended it to be. But then again, maybe that´s for the good of things, creating variation.

I find it fascinating that this phenomena doesn´t only relate to words, but also to situations. When I’m with a group of friends, let’s say 3 individuals, we are all within the same moment yet each one of us can have an entirely different experience within this moment. It just blows my mind!

But this rant started off by me realising that the word prison is loaded with too much negativity, a better term would´ve been a house or cage. A nice warm and cosy house even.
It´s not bad at all, I don´t know if it´s good either, but in any case, it´s a limiting factor keeping you within the current frame of experiences and expectations.

I love the story you posted about Vasudeva! it´s so similar! Wondering about the river holds no answers, the river itself does however.

@GoneWithTheWind,

Yup exactly! So nice to find people that came to the same conclusion!! It´s such a beautiful one isn´t it!?!

Nice that you didn´t need the psychedelics to open you up to this, I myself was much too stubborn and close minded, thank god there are even keys for rusty busted up locks haha.

@xss27

Your reaction intrigues me! Can you please please please explain!?!? I ask you this so pressingly cuz I myself thought I had finally shed the improperly interpreted influence of the psychedelics; but your comment rings my bell like there must be truth in it. So I ask you kindly sir, can you elaborate?

I do think we are on the same page however. I just don’t think there can be any dissolution of the ego, for what will drive you after this? This is what I tried to say. I think enlightenment is coming to terms with the ego and maybe removing limiting believes accumulated by your journey through the external world but in the end, you´ll still have an ego.

I don´t think true happiness is being in the still silence, for in this way you detach yourself from feelings, if I may say so from being. When I truly clear my mind and thoughts cease this place opens, but it offers nothing more than a brief escape from reality.

I think true happiness lies in the combination of the both, being utterly attached to whatever you are doing, but with a sense of detachment stemming from the fact that you know that the outcome is not nearly as valuable as the journey or process.

@Exitwound,
you are absolutly correct! I geuss I still had or have some lingering negative attitude towards life, I have hated it for my first 25 years; it´s a enormous change. I geuss my old patterns still shine trough a little bit. Funny thing is when you posted your reply, I was already addressing the verry issue of the negative attatchemts to the word prison.

@332211,
Sounds like you are in an rough place my friend! But man is only distinct from nature because of your own perception. I´m willing to bet anything I own that from the perspective of a living organism operating on a different scale we humans are just as natural as anyting else.

Your game seems nice tough, and probably healthy, so what´s the problem? What is making you doubt your path when it fills you with satisfaction? It´s the only sign post in live that holds any merit, for whatever you are doing it´s always a game. The entire point of my opening post was that there´s no getting away from the game, being conscious about the fact does help tremendously tough; live is the game, the prison, the cage, the house, whatever you want to call it; and live needs a place too live within. Better make it a place you like.

PS; have you ever seen anything create a Atom? I have not, so to compare human creation to this thing no one has ever witnessed is kind of.. strange isn´t it? You don´t compare apples and pears either, you compare apples with apples and pears with pears.
Only life persists trough death.

 
xss27
#8 Posted : 2/23/2019 10:23:40 PM

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ozzoes wrote:
I do think we are on the same page however. I just don’t think there can be any dissolution of the ego, for what will drive you after this? This is what I tried to say. I think enlightenment is coming to terms with the ego and maybe removing limiting believes accumulated by your journey through the external world but in the end, you´ll still have an ego.


What do you think is driving your body and mind now? The ego? It would certainly like to think it is doing so, that is its chief feature. Enlightenment is death of the false idea and identification with the body-mind. The ego, which we all identify with, is not real. It doesn't do anything at all.

When it is seen to be false things still go on as they did before because the ego wasn't doing anything in the first place, only taking credit for it.

ozzoes wrote:
I don´t think true happiness is being in the still silence, for in this way you detach yourself from feelings, if I may say so from being. When I truly clear my mind and thoughts cease this place opens, but it offers nothing more than a brief escape from reality.

I think true happiness lies in the combination of the both, being utterly attached to whatever you are doing, but with a sense of detachment stemming from the fact that you know that the outcome is not nearly as valuable as the journey or process


You've probably felt that on psychedelics, yes? That the moment was all that actually mattered because the concept of time had partially vanished. Similar to what happens after a person has experienced enlightenment, only it is far more intense as there is no attachment or meaning yet they are simultaneously everything at once. Really difficult to put it into words without sound like nonsense! Pleasure and pain still happen but they are beyond both.. that is true happiness.
 
ozzoes
#9 Posted : 2/24/2019 2:47:53 AM

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That´s a tough question you asked there, and it kept me thinking and searching for the correct words, thank you!

At the moment it´s mostly circumstances surrounding me which drives the body and the mind. I can only act upon that which is presented to me. The act flows out of the body itself, following it´s needs and demands. It´s a endless feedback loop.

Falling down the rabbit hole i fell for the promise of nirvana by destroying the Ego, by becoming no one. Hating life and myself, i think i managed to get pretty close to pushing away the ego trough the sheer act of my.... oh wait ego... For being without ego was something i wanted, so it clearly flows out of the ego. It´s an illusion, just another game!


Yes i have reached this point where i feel utterly content with life even tough at the moment I have plenty of reasons not to be. I seem to have lost interest in the outcome of my own life, i find great joy in the journey either uphill or downhill.

But the other side of this coin is If you have no personality, no wants and no needs, what are you ganna strive for? How do you find direction?

This is a hard thing for me to admit, because I was perfectly content with needing and wanting nothing, it´s way easier then needing or wanting anything. But i have come to the conclusion that the ego is the nessecary tool to navigate this game. It can be a verry diverse tool tough, taking many shapes and forms to suite to job at hand.

I´ve experienced this still silence on and off psychedelics, tough only off after finding it on psychedelics first. It´s just observing your illusion when the engine has ceased to make it move... when you´ve stopped giving definitions and just experience... it´s all thinking, it´s all mental; and even worse, it´s not even directed by you! It´s looking for that which others have described before...

Come to think of it, i think i´ve been going into this still silence verry often when i was younger, at the time i just viewed it as zoning out. Seeing without observing and ceasing to think so time stopped excisting and the pain of being an outcast would fade until it was time for my next class. I geuss the fight or flight response in me tended to go towards flight. And the ultimate flight from realitiy is meditation, you don´t live in the still silence how ever often you go there. You still need to eat, drink and sleep in the roaring chaotic loudness.

So, geussing you have a different stance on this all, what do you think is driving your body and mind then? And what pushes you to go beyond the need for food, water and shelter? Or do you think anything more then food, water and shelter should be abondoned by the human race since it only adds unnessecary complexity?

Great disccusion my friend, i love it and can´t wait to read yours, or the replies of others.
Only life persists trough death.

 
 
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