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Zn-experiment lab notes. Options
 
TmC47
#1 Posted : 11/26/2009 1:50:31 PM

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So, when doing a Zn-reduction an A/B extraction would be required, which I never do. However, there was some dirty spice from STB lying around, which I assumed had oxidized to a certain degree. So, the 7 dwarfs entered the lab and:

1- split the batch in 3x 500mg, X,Y,Z. Z-portion set aside.
2- dissolved X,Y 2x 500 mg in 40 ml vinigar each in seperate containers.
3- defatted both with naphta.
4- Y portion Zn reduced, filtrated.
5- X,Y basification.
6- X,Y extraction.
7- X,Y freeze precip. X: 150 mg, Y: 195 mg
8- leftovers evapped to 8 ml.
9- Freeze again. X: 15 mg, Y: 20 mg

Notes:
2) Not all dissovlves. Stays murky. Most part dissolves, part sinks, part floats, part sits in-between. Solution yellow.

3) Sep funnel 100ml, 20ml Naphta, shake 1min, settle 5mins, repeated 3 times, slightly yellow naphta, even less yellow vinigar. NB: Emulsions were put with the naphta fractions and discarded.

4) 550 mg Zn-powder was added. Because the Acetic acid was not 100% naphta-free, reaction proceeded slow due to passifcation of the Zn. Color changed to a slight greenish hue, with a nasty, fattish smell. Stirred every half hour for 5 mins for 4 hours total. 430 mg of Zn was recovered.

5) 2,5 g of Na2CO3 added for neutrality, 1 g extra. Strong crashing-out, xtals growing on stirring-rod.

6) For X and y both, 40 ml of naphta each in total was needed to dissolve the muck. Emulsion formed (sighs). Glassware dirty from carbonates and spice. cleaned with 10ml+10ml of H2O+naphta. Some stuff remained. Adding water dissolved more, but separation proceeded worse. Result: X,Y both 60 ml naphta-fractions and 80 ml watery fractions. Washed Naphta fraction AGAIN with 40 ml H2o basified with 0,5 g of Na2CO3. Naphta fraction still contained a few micro-droplets of water, which were absorbed with a dash of Na2CO3 straight into the beakers and decanted.

7) evapped 'till half volume, freeze for 24 hrs, decant, dry

9) end results:

X: 165 mg of pretty good looking spice, slightly yellow, medium size (1mm avg.) xtals. Very active and clear. Good taste when 30 mg smoked. Normal DMT visuals. Over 300 mg of what I thought was spice was lost, either way.

Y: 215 mg of very white, very small xtals (grains of sand, really) spice. Effingly strong. Very clearheaded, crisp, abstract visuals. Neutral taste when 30 mg smoked. Over 250 mg of what I thought was spice was lost, either way.

Z: large chunks of yellow/browish spice. Not as strong as the others though. Normal visuals, nothing really special. Rather strong taste when 30 mg smoked.

Oh, did a cleanup with Florisil and evapped all naphta leftovers together for an additional 50 mgs of grayish stuff of unknown composition and potency.


Conclusion:
The original spice contained about 35% of n,n-dmt and 65% unknowns. Of the unknowns, about 20% was recovered as n,n-dmt. Surely a lot of spice was also lost in the copious use of vinegar, naphta, Na2CO3 and many cleanup steps, each resulting in a percentile loss of product.
Although this experiment has been executed far from perfectly, I think it pays to do a Zn reduction step: Batch Y was favorite and quality over quantity is to be preferred. Indeed, one moves to a more laboratory-grade spice, gaining yield over not doing a reduction. But the end result does not look as nice as STB spice. Next project: crystal growing, sothat this problem can be adressed!
benzyme wrote:
you're preparing drugs, not salad.
 

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benzyme
#2 Posted : 11/26/2009 4:33:23 PM

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Laughing
using Zn for reductive amination/methylation step of a synthesis intermediate is one thing,
but there's really no point in adding it to a DMT extraction.

but nothin wrong with experimenting, as long as the dwarves don't hurt themselves.
good job, dwarves.
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
 
TmC47
#3 Posted : 11/30/2009 7:25:23 AM

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Benzyme, I'm sorry but I don't understand. I was under the impression that DMT-oxyde could be reduced to n,n-dmt with Zn. Following that aasumption, I thought that degraded spice could be upgraded, at least to a certain extend. I would conclude that the above experiment was successful in that manner. Am I wrong in my assumptions?
Also, albeit more laborious and possibly lossy, removal of oils coming from an STB like the dwarves did with sample X results in a spice that is more like an A/B spice. Or so I thought. I would like some feedback on this, because if I'm barking up the wrong tree, there is no sense, as you commented.

Peace.
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mumbles
#4 Posted : 11/30/2009 3:32:16 PM

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Very interesting work. With such small amounts mechanical etc loses could be expected to be higher in this test than in the gram scale so when you factor that in with the mass of likely rubbish in a less than amazing STB it could be worth while. An a/b would also get rid of that filler gunk people mistakenly think is spice but isn't at all. For these reactions a magnettic stirrer either bought or made from pcfans and magnets will in theory help ensure the reaction runs to completion since stirring is vital. It would help yields to get everything into solution at the start by crushing with a glass rod or heating and stirring, swirl to avoid emulsions or use heat to help them subside, and freeze precip undistrubed for at least 36hrs and if possible 48hrs for best results. With all those little improvements and on a 4x+ scale the yields would be pretty decent.
 
benzyme
#5 Posted : 11/30/2009 7:33:10 PM

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TmC47 wrote:
Benzyme, I'm sorry but I don't understand. I was under the impression that DMT-oxyde could be reduced to n,n-dmt with Zn. Following that aasumption, I thought that degraded spice could be upgraded, at least to a certain extend.


on paper, it seems reasonable
however many report activity from n-oxide (yellow oil); it would make more sense to use Zn to convert something inactive to something active, i.e. intermediates.

doesn't hurt to experiemnt though, screw it
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
 
TmC47
#6 Posted : 12/1/2009 7:43:26 AM

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mumbles wrote:
For these reactions a magnettic stirrer either bought or made from pcfans and magnets will in theory help ensure the reaction runs to completion since stirring is vital.


True. After the hand got lame following 5 mins of stirring, they resorted to extend the time for their inability to hand-stir. There's a glass propellor-fan-on-a-rod lying around (salvaged from an old Coulter-Counter), so they'll probably whip something up with a battery-screwdriver.

mumbles wrote:
It would help yields to get everything into solution at the start by crushing with a glass rod or heating and stirring, swirl to avoid emulsions or use heat to help them subside, and freeze precip undistrubed for at least 36hrs and if possible 48hrs for best results.


Heating... now why didn't the dwarves realize that.... <slaps forehead>

mumbles wrote:
With all those little improvements and on a 4x+ scale the yields would be pretty decent.


Thanks a bundle, mumbles!
benzyme wrote:
you're preparing drugs, not salad.
 
TmC47
#7 Posted : 12/1/2009 7:46:18 AM

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benzyme wrote:
TmC47 wrote:
Benzyme, I'm sorry but I don't understand. I was under the impression that DMT-oxyde could be reduced to n,n-dmt with Zn. Following that aasumption, I thought that degraded spice could be upgraded, at least to a certain extend.


on paper, it seems reasonable
however many report activity from n-oxide (yellow oil); it would make more sense to use Zn to convert something inactive to something active, i.e. intermediates.

doesn't hurt to experiemnt though, screw it



It's matter of preference then, oxyde or N,N. For me, the jury is still out on that one, whether it pays to leave the oxyde in. A batch will be oxidised using H2O2 for comparison.
And I agree, the experimentation is (at least) half the fun!

benzyme wrote:
you're preparing drugs, not salad.
 
 
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