Hello everyone. Lately I've been researching these seeds on the internet and while I found most of the information very useful, certain aspects still remain unclear to me:

-Do morning glory seeds contain cyanogenic glycosides? Is there any scientific data to sustain this claim, or we simply don't know if that's true or not?
-Last time SWIM did MG seeds he had a very powerful spiritual experience that changed the way he looks at life and even existence itself but here is a little story: in the first hour of the trip SWIM had very bad vasoconstriction or something, he doesn't know exactly what provoked this. He kept feeling that he didn't get oxygen and he felt a lot of pressure in his chest like his lungs couldn't expand or something. This feeling keep increasing in intensity to a point that SWIM thought that he was dying.(the psychedelic mantra xD). That feeling subsided as the trip began, in fact at some point he checked and his heart beat was perfect and he could in fact breath better than ever, but it did take a while to calm down and it involved him having to accept that he was dying and he couldn't do anything about it.(psychedelic mantra nr. 2) Now, SWIM thinks the vasoconstriction was real 100% because the day after, he had very sore muscles and a general feeling of physical weakness, but SWIM is concerned that the seeds did in fact contain cyanide or something similar. Did other SWIMs experience anything like this on MG seeds? Is this a normal reaction to LSA or is it actually cyanide that causes this?
-What are the best vasodilatators to deal with the LSA vasoconstriction?



Thank you in advance and sorry if my English is bad, it's not my first language.

Honestly, your sideeffects do not sound at all like caused by vasoconstriction to me. Usually this starts by feeling cold in your extremities, as the reduced blood flow cannot keep the extremities on proper temp.
To me it sounds rather like a typical panic attack.



This is a very strange deduction, IMHO. Why vasoconstriction? Could be a plethora of other causes for this.



You can easily counter vasoconstriction by taking L-Arginine and/or L-Citrulline (precursor). But as said, I'm doubtful that your symptoms were caused by it.



First be aware that the seeds do contain many different active substances, not just LSA. Also depending on age, as it seems, LSA isn't even the main active substance.

How did you prepare the seeds and how much did you take?


Glycosides in the seeds probably cause nausea and other effects (e.g. vomiting), but they're non-cyanogenic. The resin glycosides are glycosyl derivatives of monohydroxy and dihydroxy C14 and C16 fatty acids. They are part of a larger family of substances known as glycolipids or lipopolisaccharides. Their structures are peculiar since they are amphipatic.

That is BTW one reason, why IMHO during a CWE, one should only soak shortly for a brief time, like reported in traditional usage from Wasson, as these ambiphilic substances are water soluble but not as good as the ergolines.

Thanks for the quick reply. I actually found the paper about MG resin and it seems like the glycosides are not only not dangerous but may have some benefits for diabetic patients via their anti hyperglycemic properties.

Now, I'm not a botanist nor am I a chemist, so correct me if I'm wrong, but resin does not come from or equal to seeds, (as I understand from wikipedia) so I think in this case it's fair to assume that the resin and the seeds may have very different chemical compositions.

Regarding SWIM's experience, I have to admit that SWIM suspected from the beginning that what actually happened might have been a panic attack, but having dozens of forum threads around the internet spreading around this rumor that MG seeds contain cyanogenic glycosides can make one extremely paranoid. On the other hand, there are many reports of people taking monstrous doses, like 500+ seeds, and surviving so I guess that's enough proof to say that there is no poison in the seeds after all.

About the CWE... SWIM did not do that lol. SWIM just ate the seeds and then ate some food to help with the nausea and stomach pain.

If SWIM were to make a CWE, for how much time should he leave the seeds in water? I've also heard Terrence Mckenna talk about how garlic helps with the stomach pain, is that true?

I searched for information about this, and couldn't find any confirmation that they do. However, I have no real knowledge of chemistry, and do not have access to the scientific papers (academic journals) even if I could understand them.

Have you tried sublingual use of Morning Glory seeds (simply chewing them for an hour and then spitting them out?).

Dermal absorption of such poisons (if they in fact exist in the seeds, which I have not found evidence of), would still occur presumably - but in lower quantities.

SWIM has had no negative effects when using sublingual adminstration, except for lower levels of intoxication (relative to the number of the seeds).

So if your friend would chew, absorb and spit out 800 seeds (which would take an hour and a half of chewing in three or more batchs), it would have perhaps have equivalent intoxication effects as drinking in cold water 300 seeds. The chewing shouldn't be unpleasant, and SWIM believes your friend can do it effortlessly while browsing the internet.

Around half an hour.

SWIM recommends:
Washing the seeds in a sieve (to remove any water-soluble pesticides). Then grinding the seeds in a coffee grinder.

Then stirring it with the water at the beginning, and then leaving the water to settle and clear for half an hour. Then pouring only the top of the water into a paper coffee filter (not pouring the mush into the filter, as this will clog up the paper filter). Or pouring the water through a sieve above a paper coffee filter (the sieve preventing the mush from clogging the coffee filter).

The less seed matter in the final water (the more clear the final water), the less nausea it should cause. SWIM believes it might be a good idea, to let the water settle for a few minutes, and then drinking it (trying not to drink any left over seed particles that might settle in the bottom of the cup(s)).

Using about 600-800 seeds and about 500ml of water.

Alternatively SWIM recommends just using the sublingual method, of simply chewing the seeds, and spitting out the seeds, although this results in lower intoxication per seed (so requiring more seeds per dose), and a lot of chewing.

SWIM does not notice any negative physical effects, and finds it combines well with nicotine gum (taken about 3 hours in), which can reduce some of the introspective/melancholy thought processes. SWIM has also found that the seeds combine well with consuming art/music (underwater diving videos, or watching nature documentaries, high quality anime, etc), which reduces the melancholy introspection aspect.

The sublingual method sound interesting. SWIM has tried microdosing like that at some point and SWIM didn't notice any loss in potency. SWIM will definitely try the sublingual method first, with a more conservative dose maybe like 200-250. Should SWIM expect a faster and smoother come up? SWIM is thinking of taking them at night, in relatively silent darkness, perhaps meditate and listen to some calming music. You guys approve?

SWIM says the come up is slower for some reason when taken sublingually (2 hours). But he would recommend at least 600-800 seeds with this method, even it sounds like a lot of chewing - as the intoxication per seed is less, since you are spitting them out.

The come up might be slower, because sublingually you are mainly absorbing LSA? And the effect sublingually should become very strongly sedating, after two hours, and it might feel like a more "pure" intoxication.

As for cost, even 800 seeds, is still less than $2 usually, so it's such not a problem to be wasteful with them.

The taste shouldn't be too bad, as long as SWIM's brain doesn't associate it too much with his past experience, when he actually ate them.

Uhm...guys this is really awkward , but could you please update the quotes in your answers to the freshly edited ones? I realized that I'm using the wrong terminology for the topic of discussion.(this mistake won't happen in the future) Also, I'd like to declare this thread closed (if possible), I think everything has been clarified thoroughly. I'll come back with a report when SWIM finishes his experiment. Thank you very much.

Of course!
I look forward to reading SWIM's report!

A positive thing about Morning Glory seeds, is that mere chewing (and/or planting the seeds in the garden) of Morning Glory seeds is legal.

It is not unreasonable to suspect that the vasoconstriction caused by LSA could be the cause of OP's muscle cramping, as muscle cramps are symptom of vasoconstriction with certain health problems. While OP's cramping could be due to something else, vasoconstriction is a solid guess.

UPDATE: In the process of learning more about morning glory seeds and looking into other posts, SWIM stumbled upon 69ron's thread: LSA + peppermint/mint oil in which 69ron explains the difference in effects between LSA and LSH.
It seems that the intense anxiety and shortness of breath that SWIM experienced during his last trip might be linked to the influence of LSH and I quote (69ron):

"The effects of LSH are totally different from LSA.

Be warned though, LSH can give you one hell of a scare. SWIM can handle massive doses of LSD. A large dose of LSH can cause extreme anxiety beyond belief. It’s good at low to moderate doses, but large doses are unpleasant. It also causes unpleasant side effects (vasoconstriction and bronchial constriction).

If you do it, only use a low or moderate dose. A low dose is almost identical to LSD. It’s more mind altering and more alien than LSD, and not as visual. Unlike LSA, LSH is a stimulant like LSD and doesn’t cause any sedation at all, in fact it can cause nervous jitters, and like I said, extreme anxiety if too much is taken."


"Animal lab test shows that LSH has strong bronchial constriction effect, and it also has vasoconstriction effects. Animal lab tests also show it to be a stimulant like LSD producing the same behavioral effects as LSD does in animals. Animal tests with LSA show it produces sedative effects, vasoconstriction, but it lacks bronchial constriction effects, and doesn’t produce LSD-style behavior."


Last time SWIM used the Heavenly Blue strain and the seeds weren't fresh. In SWIM's country it is currently illegal to import morning glory seeds without special authorization. SWIM can only get packets of 45 - 80 seeds and while he can guarantee that there are no pesticides applied, the seeds are never fresh. Perhaps when the seeds get older the LSA turns into LSH? It is also possible that SWIM just had bad luck and his seeds were from a batch with high LSH contents. In any case, is there a way to avoid, remove or deal with this substance?

Also worth mentioning, SWIM decided to make a CWE instead of using the sublingual method because, he doesn't know for sure, but it is possible that the seeds may contain a fungicide called thiram which may be dangerous if inhaled. If ingested, this fungicide has an LD50 of 1 gram per kilogram (in rats and rabbits), but
fortunately this substance is very slightly soluble in water 30mg/l. By SWIM using a CWE with 500ml of water, he would ingest 15mg (maximum) of this toxin. That would be hundreds of times lower than the LD50. In fact, in a scientific paper they say that the NOEL (no observable effect level) of this toxin is somewhere around 5mg/kg/day, so I think SWIM is safe . (Again, very unlikely that they would put this stuff on the seeds without any warning on the label but I think it's better to be prepared just in case.)

@hexixt:

Sure, but I would find it strange that vasoconstrictive effects would be responsible, if he didn't get the main major first signs of vasoconstriction (coldness/numbness of extremities).



Lol, it's exactly the other way around.
The fungi on the plants only biosynthesize LSH (with ergometrine as intermediate). LSA then is the decomposition product of LSH over time. There's no known biosynthetic endpoint to produce LSA, so it's always a decomposition product.

So fresh seeds have mainly LSH (in relation to LSA), while old seed basically only contain LSA anymore.

BTW: The famous peppermint oil conversion tek very likely does not convert LSA back to LSH. Any chemist I asked so far clearly denied this reaction would take place as easily. But it clearly changes the effects. But what exactly happens isn't really clear.

So I wouldn't bet on it, that the experiences 69ron got with the conversion is the effect from LSH itself...

But yes, in animal tests LSH showed quite a strong vasoconstriction and additionally a strong broncho-constriction.

But this


isn't the case. It has been observed that it isn't a strong adrenergic blocker as ergometrine is, but this doesn't mean at all that this means it's stimulating. On the contrary do they deduce in this study, that LSH is an adrenergic blocker, although a weak one. So the opposite of a stim. So it could be slightly sedating, like LAE-32, which is extremely close structurally.



Lol, usually people look for seeds with still much LSH in them, as LSA itself is mainly a sedativum and rather dysphoric (although stimulating and euphoric in very low doses), non visual (even in high doses), putting you in a dreamy, mentally kinda disconnected, self-reflective state. It gives severe bodily sideeffects in higher dosages (salivation, vomiting, giddiness, diarrhea).



But as the title is " A few safety concerns" I would like to add the following advice:

Never use these seeds when you could possibly be pregnant.

There are varying amounts of ergometrine in it, depending on various factors. And ergometrine has a strong uterotonic effect. So it could lead to miscarriage/abortion if taken, while pregnant! Also from the animal tests of LSH we know it has also these uterotonic effects, although not as strong as ergometrine (about half the potency), but there's usually much more of it in the seeds, when fresh.

Thanks for the concern, but I'm a guy. That is very good advice though. Also important: if you have heart problems or some sort of mental illness like
schizophrenia you should stay away from drugs especially MG seeds. If you are not sure if you can take a drug, I know it's awkward, but ask your doctor. Your discussion with the doctor is confidential, plus it's in his/her best interest to keep you alive.

That must be annoying for SWIM.

It's not possible just to buy thousands of seeds for a few dollars on Ebay?

Well you can always plant them yourself, which I anyways recommend. They are good growers and you will quickly have thousands of seeds.But the acquisition of the seeds needs then some time...

Unfortunately all LSA containing seeds are ilegal to import in SWIM's country. SWIM could legally buy hundreds of grams of MG seeds from within the country, but nobody sells them like that here. It is indeed a weird situation and the law is extremely schizophrenic on this subject. Same with cactuses, ilegal to import, legal to buy within the country.

10 years ago there were some problems with legal research chemicals, specifically artificial cannabinoids and also amanita muscaria being sold at every street corner in legal highs shops. A lot of highschool kids died or were put into hospital consuming large amount of these substances and since then they're trying to ban every single psychoactive substance. Fortunately, some plants are unknown to the law and they are freely sold at this moment. For example MHRB and rue can be ordered on the internet from within the country. Of course DMT is highly forbidden , but the plant is not because 1 its not psychoactive by itself and 2 it is used for the treatment of skin diseases.

This is just a temporary problem for SWIM as he plans to plant some MG and some species of salvia in the next spring.

Well, SWIM just drank 850 seeds a couple hours ago. SWIM finds the swirling, dizzying physical sensations almost a bit too intense, with the walls breathing.

But SWIM's mind definitely reached a nice, spiritual state after a couple of hours of a bit too much physical dizziness...