First, I'm sorry to have unknowingly opened the coffin on this thread. I did a Google search on "Atheism and DMT" and this DMT Nexus thread was the very first search result, so kudos to the DMT Nexus! Since the topic is not anything "dated" (like if The Eagles will beat the Patriots) then new views will probably emerge over time anyway.

I'll make this last comment and let it go back to sleep. I apologize in advance for its length.



...I would definitely want to "have certainty" as this represents knowledge. I would think an Atheist would want the same? But there is no logical way to claim certainly without already having certainty. But if I DID have certainty, I would definitely claim so! Your question asking "What's so bad about claiming that you are not certain?" is the only logical way to think when certainty is not present.

That is EXACTLY what perplexes me with Atheism!

I believe that God (a purpose-driven intelligence) exists, but I am not "certain." I forward my thinking as if God does exist based on whatever circumstantial evidence I can provide, but the truth is that I am not certain at all. Atheism is a non-belief in any god(s) as there is a lack of evidence to provide any "certainty" in that regard. But isn't it illogical to claim that God does not exist with any certainty if the possibility of God has not been Logically-eliminated?

True Atheism would not care either way! An Atheist would simply say, "I don't believe there is a god(s)." and leave it at that. No argument or reasoning for a non-belief in God is required unless there is "certainty" present that there is indeed a God. The moment an Atheist says, "Show me empirical evidence of god's existence!" they accept the premise of God within their question and this opens the door to "uncertainty."

If anything, I would have thought the brutally raw and powerful experience that DMT presents to an Atheist would be enough for an Atheist to accept the "possibility" of the existence of God. I am surprised how little of an effect DMT has had in even "opening the door" to the possibility of the existence of God.

ÅikyǬ touches on this in his comment:



...ÅikyǬ's argument leads us to believe that we cannot claim "certainty" for things that are not of this world and does so very eloquently. If two people's interpretations of something are totally different, then where is your "certainty?" Example: We can claim with absolute certainty that the Earth is spherical and not flat, but we cannot claim with absolute certainty that the Earth was purposely created by some totally unknown entity called God. Likewise we can't claim with absolute certainty that the Earth exists as a result of non-purposeful factors, but it seems more likely than an all-powerful Wizard waving his magic wand.

Atheism wins the battle of certainty in this regard!

So that leads us to Buxin's comment which demonstrates exactly the difficulty of the point ÅikyǬ just made:



...Buxin is using "things" we can recognize and understand in this world to describe things in another world (inner self) that don't have names or are not simply recognizable or understandable in this world. He uses the "crystal-forming analogy" in a very effective way and I am better able to understand. This is what many are trying to do to get Atheists to accept the "possibilities" of the things we don't know for certain.

Hypothetical: Let's say we all lived in a 2-dimensional realm called "Flatland." I recently tried DMT and had a extra-dimensional experience. I encountered "Sphere!" How would I describe a sphere (as our Earth is) to the other inhabitants of Flatland? What words would I use? I would be forced to only use "recognizable things" found in Flatland and create analogies in an attempt to explain something that simply is not known or understood at all in Flatland. I might use a series of circles that grow and shrink in size to simulate how "sphere" would pass through flatland, but would this really make sense to everyone else in Flatland ...or show proof of the existence of "Sphere?"?

However, if other inhabitants of Flatland used DMT and also saw "Sphere" then they would know exactly what I was trying to describe. When the DMT finally wears off, they would all return to Flatland. Some would say,"Yes, I definitely encountered Sphere!" Others would say, "I encountered what people have claimed is Sphere, but I'm not sure if what I saw was actually "Sphere" or not?" and some would probably say, "I encountered something that people claim is "Sphere" but I think it's just a vivid hallucination of something that does not exists due to me taking a hallucinogenic drug."

Then the intellectual battle between the "known and the unknown" emerges in Flatland as demonstrated by Dragonrider's comment:



...Dragonrider injects the cold antiseptic sting of reality into this whole "Sphere" issue. Dragonrider points out that all things being equal, whatever presents itself as being closet to a known "demonstrable" reality is what should be deemed as having the highest level of certainty. Many inhabitants of Flatland will argue that the only thing that is known for certain are the things that can be demonstrated as "already being certain" in Flatland... and rightfully so!

This Atheist argument is logical, solid and why Atheists present a good point, but I had really hoped to see more Atheists moving more towards the "middle ground" after taking DMT.

Flatlanders who used DMT got to see "Sphere" first hand as opposed to it being merely described as a bunch of growing and shrinking circles. However, they still don't know what "Sphere" really is because it is not present in Flatland. Back on planet Earth, we know spheres exist and we also know what 2-dimensional things are. We know how difficult it would be to describe something that is 3-dimensional to a world that is 2-dimensional ...so this is a perfect analogy for accepting the possibility of the existence of God.

So, after all of this, the question I ask the Atheist is, "Why don't you even consider the possibility for the existence of God if nothing is known for certain?"

I don't see those realms as separated, to me the body is pure truth and its unaltered or altered perception all are grounding us in truth. It is the refusal of the body's truth as a sensoriel experience , that involves forcibly letting go of excessive forms of mental representation of the world, that creates the concepts and separation.

The realms of spice are as the night, yet its nature is the same as our "materialist" - whatever that means - day. It depends where you look at things from, if you stay in a rationalist thought that find its reason and purpose in doubt then I think you are missing on many opportunities to translate your experience into every day life and are reducing the spectrum of what you can/will integrate. The night has to be turned into day, and though that truth has its limits, I think it is applicable here. Instinctually there is a lot we know, all maybe, but you can't translate it in anything else than presence in the moment and being, body language. Because it is the better technology and the best way to feel the echo of this not so distant shore.

I still like to remind every so often this irony that our ancestors were bathing in spirit world and living very closely, as "totally in and tuning hard", to nature (the world, aka Material4BillionK) but we who deny this truth of our imagination and its reality have isolated ourselves in a "materialist" ecosystem of our own making, we literally live in our imagination, its lowest part at least.

As for @BirdmanDMT points on God, people have a very grand misunderstanding of what God is, or what personnification is and its value, and are underestimating the truth of emotional and symbolical thoughts as ways to perceive reality. If you stand by the cold, the rain and the nights and let them morphs as the clouds go by and a sunshine passes and touches your skin, as the sound of the rain vanishes and let that of the wind blowing through an oak tree leaves ... It's very hard, being this involved in the process and feeling it with all your senses, not perceiving a cosmic being doing tai chi, breathing on scales immense and flows of energy running through the veins of the world ...

I am fiercely convinced doubting those most pure expression of what our body can achieve as to perception of reality, is denying our own nature, our gift, and will result in self destruction as we painfully hide from ourselves and sink into a very deceitful form of existential doubt.

So, as a matter of fact, I really don't see those realms as separated.

But birdman, i do think it's possible that there's a god. I even think it's likely.

So i DO take that middle ground position.
I do believe, or tend to believe there's a god.

But i'm not gonna make any claims.
And i'm not going to allow any kind of 'afterlife' to become more important in this life, than this very life itself.

Reading my old reply here seems to imply to some that I take the materialist point of view. My thoughts on materialism are that everything is made of the same stuff and the further down the rabbit hole you go the less it appears to be 'stuff'. It's something more like energy or spirit, which may even be the same thing if you go deep enough.

God would be that which lies at the base of all of it. It would be above and beneath the math, in-between the probabilities, the instigator of the initial conditions of the creation of the multiverse who intentionally left behind the blueprints locked with certain keys.

Or that's just a buncha crazy. There's 'stuff', nothing created it intelligently, and we're all just tripping balls. Doesn't give me much inspiration if I see it that way, but nature is still beautiful.

Whatever, I'll smoke DMT and realize I need to think bigger, again.

I been thinking about it in a different way recently. That perhaps the DMT realms/ states are the source of inspiration for many of the worlds faith systems. These realms were entered though whatever means (light filled herbs, manna, soma, mushrooms, the burning bush which is theorised to have been an acacia tree which contains DMT. Fasting, extreme trials Ect)

Another clue is the religious art and architecture in churches, Mosques and temples. Upon entering the DMT space it seemed so evident to me that this is the style they were aiming for. Endless sacred geometry, Islamic patterning and stainglass like mandalas.

Most people’s DMT experiences seem to fit the common spiritual themes; oneness, surrender, heaven and hell realms, reserection, the creation, gods and goddesses, angels (of which I’m suspecting are the elves that greet you and show you wonderous things)

Over the meleniums the experiences and wisdom brought back from these realms has been contorted turned into mundane ritual.
And the truth only only glimpsed at by the lucky few. Or at death when their brains are flooded with the good stuff.

The faiths and those without share a commonality, they collaps the experience of life and afterlife into ones and zeros is and isn’ts, but perhaps it is and should forever be a beautiful and wonderous mystery.

"No other and no self, no self and no distinctions – that’s almost it. But I don’t know what makes it this way. Something true seems to govern, but I can’t find the least trace of it. It acts, nothing could be more apparent, but we never see its form. It has a nature, but no form."
Hinton, David(translator). Chuang Tzu (p. 21). Counterpoint.

Kinda depends on what the theos in atheism means; if it means an obsessive compulsive big shot micromanaging the universe this seems the least likely explanation. But that our shared origin in mind is gently calling us to refuse stupidity and ego trips and learn to give and accept love, that seems like what I have learned or am trying to learn, along with the deepest reverence for water, plants, stars, fungi, animals death and life.

Maybe a good metaphor would be that, while you're playing a videogame, you ARE your avatar.

When you live your life on this planet, you are a biological creature, and the rules of the material world apply. You cannot escape them.

Maybe there is something outside of this world. Maybe this world is like that videogame. We don't know, and we cannot know. Like the avatar in a videogame doesn't know where you buy your groceries.

As long as you're playing, you have to follow the rules of the game.

Very interesting question for a newby
I considered myself an athiest is... I basically wasn't sure if there was 'anything out there' but I always live my life in the best way possible... Not hurting others... Be respectful.
After my aya experience I now consider myself a spiritualist... Whatever that means to other people.
I now sense there's a higher consciousness and that we are all entwined somehow... I still have my core morals and have always been into nature and care of natural beings and the environment... But now that has been emphasised.
Hope this helps

DMT helped push me from being a more undefined spiritual person into an atheist. Simple reason. A simple drug that resembles neurotransmitters can induce "religious" experiences. Its all just a drug messing with your brain. I always thought DMT would be "the drug" that would prove there is another dimension that would validate spiritual beliefs (read a lot of Terrance McKenna and related authors growing up). I ended up thinking the opposite.

You need Aya

Made it worse.

Edit: I should add this story. First time strong dose pharmahuasca. Came on strong psychedelic net in the ceiling opening up into beautiful patterns. Didn't take long before a strong feeling of some other presence began to take over. After a while this presence became all consuming. It felt as it I was in the presence of some sort of ultra powerful god like being. Note that I never saw any entity but I never really do. I always feel presence but never see entities.

Anyway this theme of being in the presence of some god like being began to take a distinctly Islamic tone. I kept seeing visions of Muslim colleagues welcoming me into their faith. I kept having this feeling that I need to submit before this all powerful being. That I was a fool to question its existence.

It was an interesting but rather scary trip. But either way it ended. I thought about what it all meant. It doesn't really mean anything except I was high and drugs were altering my consciousness. I can interpret what it might mean much in the same way I'd try to interpret a dream. Doesn't mean I actually encountered some god like being.

The words I use are inadequate but here they are anyway.
My attempt to elucidate my truth
Suppose for a second that you are "connected" to "GOD" "Everything" "all that is" "akasha" and your brain filters, hides, some of the data or info/facts so that you can handle it (look into what Savants like Kim Peek or a calendrical savant knows). these neurotransmitters could change brain function enough to allow a glimpse into something more, your ultimate connectivity with all that is. Check out acquired Savant Syndrome. It's when after a brain injury you appear to have above genious level info of some sort or another.

How many times have you taken Pharma, and have you used the plants rather than extracts? Both are capable of quite a bit of magic, but i myself tend to prefer the plants or full spectrum extracts, over isolated compounds. But you need to pursue this stuff, dive in as often as possible and approach it as a practice or art/craft, things unfold as you go along, it's a journey/quest, in order to really experience and understand what all this stuff is capable of and what all you're capable of with this stuff, you've really gotta pursue it, you can not and will not have a few experiences and that's that, people take this stuff regularly for years, decades even, to really start to understand, i took this stuff daily/near daily for 4 years and then occasionally for another year before i took a break, and i still feel i've barely scratched the surface of this stuff, but there's waaaaaaaay more going on than you can possibly imagine.

Also, try not to allow certain ideas or views or biases or thoughts get in the way of the raw data. Idk about the Islamic thing, but what you wanna focus on is within yourself, your soul/spirit, your higher self, higher consciousness/awareness/perception/understanding/gnosis/wisdom, at least imo/ime, what you wanna connect to/with is within you. And, surrender to the medicine/experience and to yourself, surrender to the process, allow yourself to die and be reborn, pay attention and learn.

I've never seen an entity that i can say for sure was an actual entity but i have felt some presences/personalities that seemed like i was connected to someone else on the medicine through the spirit realm or something, even heard and channeled them a few times, but i rarely see any closed eyed visuals, even from strong dosages or different Psychedelics, for me it's all about the mental, physical, emotional, spiritual, medical, and therapeutic stuff, i really don't care about visuals/visions, although i have had one precognitive vision while on purified Harmala extract and Acacia and Lemon Balm tea, the vision was about my dad's death which happened a couple weeks later, which happened to be my second precognitive vision, the first being in a dream back in 2007 about me being in a hospital and 2 months later i almost died from Salmonella Sepsis, and so this stuff can definitely tap you into ESP and such, imo, i'm just not sure how deep it all goes.

Also, it's good to be skeptical, i'm skeptical, i'm more scientifically minded and didn't know jack shit about any of this stuff until i started experimenting around with Harmalas/Rue and Acacia/Mimosa (which was my first Entheogen/Psychedelic ever, and i handled it like a champ), but boy did i learn quite a lot so far from this stuff, i remembered quite a bit, reconnected with some things, understood/realized some things, it's definitely a path worth pursuing imo, especially if you're seriously in the dark about the spiritual/mystical stuff, which btw isn't in the drugs, it's in you, the spiritual/mystical states are induced within yourself, not induced by the drugs, the drugs are merely keys/tools we use to go within ourselves and tap into this other side of/dimension to reality, imo/ime. Just be open and receptive and pay attention, use discernment, dive in as much as possible and experiment around, if you're truly serious about it, i do think you will find your way, i did.

Simply_Me:

I agree that the universe is connected in some fundamental ways and we humans are part of that. I don't need psychedelics to think that but the psychedelic experience is one way to feel it. Same with meditation and some kinds of brain damage / injury. I just don't see any need for spiritual interpretations of psychedelic experience is all.

ShamenStamen:

Although I tend to prefer purified / semi purified alkaloids compared to more raw plant materials simply due to side effects I've done them both ways. Realize I just chose one random trip where I felt like I contacted a god like entity. That trip just seemed the most 'monotheistic' since we were discussing atheism I chose that one. I've encountered what I felt like were other god-like or other dimensional beings which have taken on other flavors and themes on other trips as well. More science fiction like for example. Or more nightmare evil. Or beautiful and loving. I just don't really see them in any way that like I could draw them its not that kind of image. Its more in the mind not in my field of vision. Anyway I've had numerous psychedelic experiences on different compounds that were the among most profound experiences of my life. But again I just see no reason to think its anything more then product of my brain behaving different then normal.



Back to atheism. It just seems if we look back at people in history who don't know anything about neuroscience taking psychedelics or having their brains otherwise get altered explains a lot of historical religious / magical thinking. DMT just happened to be drug that helped me come to that realization although its the same with similar drugs.

What you're looking for is within you, you could take an Entheogen 50, 100, 500 times and still not find the Light if you're not doing it right. What you're looking for is within you, and within all of us, it's tapping into a broader and clearer and more truthful reality than the reality we're in in our every day lives, it's knowledge/wisdom/insight/revelations that come up from within, it's certain states of consciousness which we can induce, it's our reconnection with Spirit/soul, illumination, "where once i was blind, now i can see". There's no godly entity out there, it's within you, it's a part of you or rather, you're a part of it. Seek deeper, set the right conditions, explore/experiment around, and you will probably find your way. For me personally, music helps induce some of these experiences, admixture plants can help too, and while i'm sure isolated compounds do fine (they've done fine for me), there are certain elements that the plants contain but do not seem to be present in the extracts, i guess you could call it the plant spirit or what not but there's something to be said about the full spectrum synergy that occurs with plants compared to isolated compounds. I too prefer to clean things up as well as i can, but i think i do prefer the plants themselves over the isolated compounds, although Rue full spectrum extract works great too which i prefer over purified Harmala extract.

I agree that there are no doubt chemical alterations going on within the brain, and there are "filters" in the brain that are dampened/dissolved, but there's way more going on imo, i don't necessarily associate it with a spiritualness outside of my self, but that within myself by altering my perception i'm able to tune into some sort of sacred and spiritual dimension that exists mainly within myself and others but we often times project our internal world onto the external world, whereas i deal primarily with my internal world and use that to rightly see the external world. I've never hallucinated, never been delusional, this stuff is like the sun glasses from They Live lol, or like some sort of ancient, Illuminati/Gnostic/esoteric type stuff, it's like THE sacrament for me personally. So if you're looking outside of you for a "god" or for entities or whatever, that's not the way to go about it imo, go within yourself, do not focus on the external world, pay attention within and to the medicine, experiment around, try different things while on the Entheogen (like using music and/or admixture plants) and explore, there's so much to learn and understand and unlock/remember from this stuff, i'm very surprised more people aren't talking about this stuff in this context, IE using it for Illumination rather than to "trip balls and see entities" lol.

“Reality, as you currently experience it, is something like a waking dream. It is disguising deeper and more intensified levels of being and knowing. For those who are ready and willing, the doors to those other levels now stand open.” ~ Daniel Pinchbeck

"Psychedelics are not a substitute for faith. They are a door to authentic faith, born of encountering directly the sacred dimension of everyday experience. This is not the only gate to that discovery, but it is the most ancient and universal, and potentially the most accessible to the majority of the Human race." ~ Rick Doblin

“The most compelling insight of that day was that this awesome recall had been brought about by a fraction of a gram of a white solid, but that in no way whatsoever could it be argued that these memories had been contained within the white solid. Everything I had recognized came from the depths of my memory and my psyche. I understood that our entire universe is contained in the mind and the spirit. We may choose not to find access to it, we may even deny its existence, but it is indeed there inside us, and there are chemicals that can catalyze its availability.” ~ Alexander Shulgin

“You don’t have to wait for the end of the world to get this news. You can just short circuit the collective march toward that realization by accelerating your own microcosm of spirituality through the use of these hallucinogens. They are the doorway that the Gaian mind has installed in the historical process to let anybody out, any time they want to, provided they have the courage to turn the knob and walk through the door.” ~ Terence McKenna

"The key to growth is the introduction of higher dimensions of consciousness into our awareness." ~ Lao Tzu

"Doesn't matter what beliefs you have - being attached to a view holds you back from real learning.... Best way to go deep with medicine is to be open minded. Doesn't mean your beliefs will change at all, but just means you are open to learning more about reality - if you start off attached to a belief then it is easy to ignore what is in front of your eyes because you don't want to see it."

"Death is the goal for the real Gnostic who is practicing seriously. whether that person is called Gnostic, Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, or Christian is irrelevant. By Gnostic, we mean someone who is acquiring conscious spiritual experience/knowledge. For that person, their spiritual process is a process of dying, not physically, but psychologically. Real spiritual work is a continual process of radical psychological death, in which all that is illusion, all that is false, dies, and what is born is truth, and cognizance of what is real."

"Humans in this world are imprisoned, asleep, drunken, fallen, ignorant. They need to find themselves—to be freed, awakened, made sober, raised, and enlightened. In other words, they need to return to Gnosis."

"It is said that Wisdom lies not in seeing things, but seeing through things." ~ Manly P. Hall

"If you cannot move the God within you, you will be chasing a ghost while neglecting your spirit." ~ Chad Hubbard

But why are we having this discussion? There are questions that we will never have the answer to. Mankind has existed for over 5 million years without ever realy knowing whether there is a god or not. There is no such knowledge, nor will there ever be any. We simply CANNOT know.
So why would it matter then? How COULD it matter, even?

I think this discussion is a result of human trait called "curiosity". We like to stick our noses into matters that might or might not require our attention and sometimes benefit as a result of being curious, and sometimes - the opposite

Of course there is a GOD.

The simple idea has shaped us in profound ways and we still enact, even the so called atheist, in our daily lives in accordance to the idea we have of it.

We exist (do we?), so what we perceive exist. How could you perceive something that does not exist? That's the liminality to delusion and depersonalization I do think so.

Science has been profoundly influenced by monotheism. We used to live in a world of many gods, where man was in touch with many forces of nature and his creation was one of many, then we now live in a world created all by ourselves, which roughly follows shift toward monotheistic beliefs (where the world is created not by interaction but our own hands).

Man has believed in God(s) that were in control of his life and now try to have control over life. It's silly and ironic. The simple realization should be we cannot escape our imagination - we are roughly living in it, materialized, more than ever.

Then should also come in consideration how you define, what you mean, by GOD.

My lens is that, since realism and highly anthropocentric forms of art had not yet come to plague humanity, man, who used to live outside all the time, not like we do indoors all the time, he used to share his identity with the wind, the thunder, the trees. Things that have shaped him and his kind since the dawn of time. So of course there is a man in the thunder and a goddess in the water, of course the rock can speak and the plants can sing, because they are not separated. Man is the world around him.

Someone that is separated from the world will not understand this: it is a felt experience of the dissolution of your identity in your surroundings.

We live in the world of biography. We think that we can understand something, get to know it, by dissecting it, reading books about it, looking it from afar, from man made lenses. It's utterly unemotional, and most likely spawns from fear of our own perception, its frailty and weirdness, and the lack of control we have over it. If I want to get to know a tree, or the sea, I go by the tree, I tip my toe in the sea, and I spend time with him, her. I call it Family Time, I call it being close.

This whole "Is GOD real? Is there a man in the sky?" really is some serious existential dread than has nothing to do with an external force but deep doubts about our own existence and take roots in our sentiment of isolation that lead to our separation from nature, so ourselves, and it all just feeds back this vicious circle.

How could there not be a man in the sky, in the grass, in the sun? Are you so eager to create tools that will further your delusion that you are separated from the world around you? To prove you that there is an objective truth to the universe that those tool will confirm for you, that they are the only who could observe it, which will inevitably lead you to want to become those tool only more and more? How is it called when one wants to leave his body remind me please?

This is beautiful....though i suppose, to many it would not realy count as a definite answer to the question whether there is a god

The only thing that realy matters to me, is that we don't need a holy scripture or some such thing, in order for the words "right" and "wrong" to have meaning.

This is what some people belief: that since the old bearded dude in the sky has been declared dead and gone, all of human morality has gone with him.

But we don't need a god to decide for us what we should and what we shouldn't do. That's like outsourcing the responsibility we have, for our own actions. And it won't work. Even if you believe that god wants you to kill your own son, it would still be your own choice and responsibility to decide whether or not to do it. And you still have to live with what you've done. Or haven't.

I think you're right aikyo. We need to be a part of something greater. And without it, we're lost. Isolated. And the vast najority of the people DO feel this way too.

This is why bankers and businesmen so often try to defend their actions with faulty economics. They do not want us to think that they don't have a conscience. They do not want to think that way about themselves either.

That should be sufficient motivation for most people, to try to do the right thing.

I am very wary of "right" and "wrong", mostly because I don't believe we have control over our lives. If you believe you have control over your life you are creating a comforting illusion and satisfying a need for control which will eventually grow and ripple in different aspect of your life. I guess it implies I don't really believe in identity either, in some ways.

I don't think I can judge someone because they are an ensemble of circumstance entirely that is itself but a tiny bit of a mechanic so complex it would boggle us forever - something in the lines of death by astonishment maybe. I don't see antagonist state as having value, they are just separated by time but are entirely similar and connected intricately by change.

But I am compelled to act a certain way and I know this way is True somehow. Like, complete would be the right word. Healthy too. You are totally in tune with what you're meant to be, there is no illusion ... But it goes on and on forever, there's no definite answer. It's a dead end.

(I don't mean you can't make decision that have value and an impact on you life and the life of overs, but I wouldn't call it control)

EDIT: consider this too:

The subconcious. We are unconciousvly treating information that would otherwise overwhelm us.

So it is not you - not the conscious you - but still makesYou. You don't consider it a person, a benevolent entity keeping you in check, yet you consider yourself a person and that thing is inherent to your sens of identity (we could even say she creates it)

So we have weird forces in the back of our minds that keep things working, that we fail to identity as living thing (fear of identification?) and that surely influences us on scale we cannot comprehend because we judt don't know.

You can call that GOD too. I guess.