They would be obliged to bring this to the attention of the states attorney, who would most likely opt to prosecute either for possession or possession with intent to distribute. The latter is more likely since they do have a tendency to underestimate what amounts people keep for personal use.

If we assume he kept 200g or 2g DMT that amounts to 66 consume units /30mg .

That's a small amount by law so the maximum penalty appears to be a maximum of 5 years in prison or a fine. The can also opt to not persue prosecution if its a "small amount"

If you carry a gun while selling or procuring the illegal substance you can get up to 10 years.

I'm not a lawyer so this is no advice. Also depends where in germany you are located.

What is realistic?

I don't know. There has been a recent case where a 72y old woman sold 24g of cannabis (1g each time). The found 260g+ in her basement. She got 1 year and 8 months on parole and had to pay 2000€.

But that appears to be a best case scenario for such a huge amount (she was old, told the police everything, was a patient etc etc)

What can be said is, that penalties for drug posessions are not as extreme as in the USA.

And regarding the actual op, (sorry I derailed with the other comment kinda sorta), ..but what DmnStr8 said so eloquently ^^^

Yes there are, such as The Ten Commandments and The Golden Rule to name a few examples.


The "old" & the "good" laws that have been instinctively understood by human kind for eons. Handed down the generations verbally & by example (and, I assume, through the traditional use of entheogens). No need for bureaucratic paper work and no need for man-made laws that are, in essence, power-plays of one group, or groups, of people coercively exerting violence over another group, or groups, of people.

Thank you tatt.





Great post here tatt^^^^^^Not only do I wholeheartedly agree with DmnStr8's assessment of the poor, misguided guy who unfortunately never took a gun safety course, obviously never came to an understanding that those kinds of weapons are wholly inappropriate in an urban apartment setting and that it is ethically reprehensible to sell sacred substances such as DMT, but I also would like to add my own apology to the OP for doing my fair share of derailing this thread in a more political direction than perhaps they intended.



May we all find our Peace

Well I would agree that the "Golden Rule" is universal but I don't think the 10 commandments supposedly written in stone which the books of the bible cannot agree on make sense as such universal laws...

Hug, you always crack me up in a really good way!!!


I also highly value your take on things and the eloquent way in which you express it.


Thank you.

Fair enough assessment Fidelsbeard...However, I was simply trying to give examples. There would be a fair amount of Buddhist doctrine listed also if I had the time to go through every good example of the "old" and "good" laws that I am talking about.

Would you agree with George Carlin's list?!

https://www.vice.com/en_...-on-facebook-live-vgtrn

"Yes, but i'm going to change my countries rules"

This is the kind of courage that makes sense.

I am with you on this point. I think that you should construct a giant, commercial scale
extraction lab, flaunt it and then get caught. You would become the Nelson Mandela of the DMT world!

Also to clarify on the 10 years sentence for the DMT. Obviously I think that's insane in and of itself. A gross overuse of law for something like that. It's f^&*ed up..

But

C'mon, you have a loaded AK just laying around, then it goes off and fires into the adjoining apartment LOL, accident or not ..the amount of brain power to have set yourself up in that situation for the potential of something like that to happen ..on top of extracting boat loads of DMT ...staggering brainpower there..

and nature on all scales ..well ..it figures itself out (for better or for worse), even in these scenarios. Not all people are endowed with that much common sense unfortunately.

Aside from the ridiculous sentence, just the fact of what he had to do in order to get himself in this situation ..well he deserved it.

People deserve to be punished because they are less intelligent than you are?

As others have said, are we sure this was a boat load of DMT? 200g in liquid form could simply be 200ml of Aya tea.

Also, the sentence was for "possesion with intent to deliver" (and I still don't understand what "deliver" means). If you say "this is not for me it's for a friend with depression I'm trying to help" while talking with the cops, does that mean you can be upcharged with "intent to deliver".

Does not seem like the legal gun accidentally going off had anything to do with the sentence, it was just how the cops got into the appartment.

Question is, if the police go into a house for any reason (gun accident, heart attack, domestic dispute, noise complaint, wrong house, etc), and find a separatory funnel with 200ml of saturated DMT naphta, can you end up on jail for 10 years? The answer seems to be yes.

This is disturbing for several reasons:

1) No person is hurt, except for the person recieving the sentence whose life has been profoundly hurt and affected.
2) The drug being extracted is showing a lot of therapeutic promise and benefit, and we were not aware ofany of them when ot was made illegal. It comes from a natural plant which several cultures use medicinally.
3) Despite 1) and 2), the court has no issue appllying outdated laws. The press has no issues reporting on the events and does not ask some obvious questions.

We agree that the brutality of the sentence is astounding. It is downright cruel. A crime against humanity. Just take a step back: 10 years in jail for WHAT? I would add that the way the press and society at large goes along with this is chilling.

Accidentally shoot an AK47 through a wall into the neighbors'? No problem, accidents happen, just be careful with that gun of yours.

Wait, is that a cup of Aya in that beaker? The natural plant brew several cultures have been using for millennia for healing and well being? You want to share it with a friend? 10 years in jail.

How did this become acceptable/normal? It seems insanely cruel and irrational to me.

For those that are unclear on American law ave terminology.

1) "delivery" is just that, the deliver of controlled substances from one location to another through individuals or conspiracies for the intent of deriving illicit income, Typically this is determined by LEO through:

1)weight of seized substance. In this case police are using a 200gram number, which in the case of dmt equals a whole lot of doses,far more than can be legitimately claimed for personal use. LSD is often weighed including the vehicle in the total charged weight. This allows LE to charge vastly more punishable offenses. It seems they may have done the same here. Who here knows what elseliquid dnt is unless he was doing some tek none of us have any clue of which i doubt. He probably learned how here.

2) transaction records, large amounts of unreported cash (over $10,000? You better have some good clear records of where you got it and that you paid taxes on it or its uncle sams by default) , past criminal history and convictions, and oh yeah, weapons are all mitigating factors in a charge. Also scales and packaging even if those materials are simply in the home-how many of you have a box of zip locks?

Intent is a charging tool used in the case when it is determined that a crime was intended but police cannot prove how and whenit occurred.

If I'm caught (hypothetically,I'd never do a thing like this,on purpose) with an 8 ball of cocaine but it's in one bag i may be okay. If it's broken up into quarter grams and i have a pocket full of fives and ones and a bunch of unnamed numbers in my phone I'm going to be charged with intent whether i was witnessed selling or not.

The only drug in which this may not apply is historically heroin because users often travel long distances and pick up a supply from a city in the form of individual bags. In NYC you can be caught with up to 300 bags of heroin and claim personal use because of how it's soldand used. Am amazing bit of reason in America actually.

Remember that the American legal system is designed to produce income and chattle, not to deter crime or rehabilitate criminals.

2) We don't know the man's history. The loaded firearm in a house that has been determined to be a drug lab and by a convict who has been found guilty of intent is going to dramatically enhance his charges and time. The gum went off as well and we don't know if he's a felon, who are not allowed to own firearms in the US.

Also we don't know about the gun. 10 years is a typical gun crime sentence. I'm guessing that we the major factor in this and that he had some history. That and he did not have a good lawyer.

null24, that is what I used to think too, but looks like we are wrong. It may be different by state, and the laws may have recently/quietly been updated, but for example,



So as far as the drug laws are concerned, if you share a natural mind expanding gift of nature with a friend, you are treated like just like a professional drug dealer selling dangerous addictive narcotics to the masses for profit.

This is sheer insanity. Drug laws are not only addictive to social institutions, but also seem to be a gateway to institutionalized madness.

I have given mushrooms to my aging parents. My Dad said it was an amazing transformative experience that helped him appreciate life as his death comes near. He said it also helped him understand parts of budhism. My mom saw a deep positive change in him. I thought I was being a good soon and giving a gift back to the people that had brought me into this world. I guess that makes me a hardened criminal now.

I totally agree with George Carlin's list!!

I am never without a good sense of humor and, besides that, Carlin always had common sense on his side whenever anything would spill out of his mouth. I love him!





Nobody deserves government thugs & goons (LEOs) arresting them for anything, period.

Now, that being said, this guy in the article certainly deserves the neighbor on the other side of his apartment wall that he "accidentally" shot into (BTW I was born & raised in a household that had loaded guns everywhere & we never had, nor have ever had an "accident" with any of them, ever) come over to his apartment and beat the holy, living crap out of him. Now that would be much closer to real justice IMHO.




Exactly!!! Thank you null. I could not have said it better myself.

What about when someone else is hurt? Rape, murder, assault, trafficing vulnerable people, etc.

We do need to protect those that are victims.

Too bad LEOs are the ones the MAKING millions of victims in the war on drugs. They have turned themselves into the bad guys. It's sad because I'm sure most/all started out with good intentions.

Good god theres a lot goin on here.
Im typin on a phone, so i would like to keep this brief.
Lets keep in mind, this is Chicago, where gun crimes without any left dead, probably doesnt catch as many eyes. Sad to say, but could very well be a factor. I didnt see any charges pertaing to the gun at first, so it seems like being in possession of the gun was no crime. Which null said before, can alone easily carry that sentence. But at the end of one of the articles, mentions 2 charges that were also involved. Armed violence and aggravated discharge
So.....

https://www.puryearlaw.c...ce-charges-in-illinois/

http://chicagocriminalde...s/aggravated-discharge/

He coulda had 200g xtal or .02g xtal, and still could have easily ended up with this same sentence. But then again, theres also no mention as to what charges may have been dropped and to which ones he actually got sentenced on. Theres too many variables that can add in to this that its imposible for outsiders such as us to fully understand. And for all we know, he had an excellent attorney, and was ecstatic at his 10 year sentence. It sounds sick, but theres many years bein done out there, and to some, 10 years looks like a bargain.

And who also knows, maybe this is his wake up call. Maybe were looking at this wrong. Maybe there was divine intervention that set that gun off. Maybe he was on his way to force a confrontation, maybe more people would have been hurt. Maybe hell think these things thru while serving this term, and decide he deserves better for himself.
We cant say if this is good or bad, who are we to decide the outcome like that. Its not my respomsibility to, and its way above my level of pay.
I wish this man all the best though, he wanted to put out that vibe for his image, and now hell get to live around many others who live that image.

That guy is dumber than a....