Wow amandanita! What a spectacular post and so well articulated! Hey archaic_revival, I'm sorry to hear you had such a rough time, but like a lot of people have said, I don't think you should take it as a "bad trip" or even a wasted trip. I have also been assaulted by a being that was clearly very cruel and malevolent. I still remember what it looked like. Kind of like a vagina with a indescribable face, very strange wings that seemed to be expanding, and a ferociousness that I've never seen in a human or any other animal. I honestly don't know what to make of the experience suffice to say it was very intense and horrifying while it was happening. The things it said also made me feel bad about myself. I don't know if it was something from the internal or the external.

I do think that what amandanita had to say about it could really be of a lot of help to you

Hey all, I didn’t really want to derail the conversation from the main topic, but I guess the discussion about the nature of DMT trips in general, and hellish experiences in particular, is a worthy spin-off and adds something to the main theme.

@Grizzly Adams
I have indeed experienced only smoked DMT trips and no DMT + MAOI brew. So it is plausible that I simply don’t get it. However, I have much experience with smoked DMT and I actually believe that I do “get it”.

I don’t know if it makes any sense to you, but I met Her. I asked to be taken as deep as the breakthrough can get you, and I got what I asked for. Then, I have accepted the generous offer of working with Her. Oh yes, even as I write this, I feel Her, I experience the hyperspace melting into me. My heartbeat going up, profound sweating, startling. I am in Her, and She is in me.

Do you call Her Aya? Well, She says she doesn’t care how I call her anyway. I can call Her whatever I like. The names don’t make any sense when I and that other dimension melt into one.

I think it took me a whole year, maybe a bit more, to get used to this uncommon feeling of never being alone. To fully accept that I am now I guy with this Aya spirit always nearby, always only a moment from me. It was overwhelming at first, to always be able hear and talk to her gentle voice, and to see her in full picture while on psychedelics or in my dreams, but I got used to it. And, most importantly, I always felt blessed by having her in me, in my mind – I finally got myself a spirit guide, a companion, an ally, a reason to live in my otherwise meaningless existence.

Now I don’t see this as a blessing anymore. But enough about me. I just want to bring a point across – even now, I have a full, strong and persistent connection to Aya or whatever you like to call Her. If this is not what Ayahuasca is all about, then please forgive me my ignorance.

@amandanita
I get your idea about a reality buble I live in. How I filter out some information and therefore experience a specific version of reality. And I have to agree with you – I definitely live in a bubble. Not that I can see it – I have an illusion that I experience the reality in its fullest form. But through logic reasoning I must conclude that I must be living in a bubble.

But doesn’t the same principle applies to you too? Or to the whole humanity in general? You might be thinking that you experience The Reality with capital R, while all others don’t? Actually, I think that we don’t experience the world is it really is, but as we believe it to be.

A surgical operation can be as painful and unpleasant as a torture, but you perceive the former as positive because you believe it will heal you. I think the same logic applies to hyperspace and particularly the “difficult” experiences. The demonic spirits torture you, humiliate you, kill you! And afterwards they make you believe they are some kind of surgeons who help you.

Needless to say, I do not believe that there is any real healing provided in hyperspace either. Basically, they cut old wounds open and put some salt on it. Letting you re-experience unpleasant memories, disturbing your peace, instilling fear, making sure that the traumas will live on. And then Aya provides a temporary relief from all that pain.

Concluding, hyperspace is a typical “good cop – bad cop” game. Aya and her little elves are the “good cop” - warm, loving, gentle, joyful. And demons (hyperspace surgeons) are the “bad cop” - intimidating, harsh, torturing, raging. And like in our world, “good cop” and “bad cop” work in synchrony with each either and for the same cause.

@Jees
You know, if you get trashed by some thugs, your bones will get micro-fractures. Upon recovery, your bones will become stronger than before you got trashed. If you get trashed frequently, you will get very strong bones like a professional kickboxer. The question is: did the thugs really wanted you to get stronger bones, or was it just a side-effect of their actions? I believe the latter.

The hell part of hyperspace works much in the same way: you get tortured, your ego gets fractured, you experience death. But then you come back, recover (=”intergrate”) and feel stronger than before. And then you will be like: “What a great experience! Sure it was difficult, but I became stronger and a better person afterwards!” All true and well, only these positive effects are mere side-effects and are surely not why you got tortured in the first place.

Don't get me wrong, personally, I have learned a lot from my DMT and other psychedelic journeys. They stimulated me to do something with my life, to start going to university again, to better my life, to seek for God. In retrospect, I must admit that I needed to experience hell to start enjoying life. But I refuse to give credit for this to the devil, Aya, demons and elves, because it was not what they intended.

With kind regards.

Ayahuasca is a brew made from Banisteriopsis Caapi and Psychotria Viridis.
The spirit of Ayahuasca as well as the healing power is mostly assigned to the Caapi plant, which contains the MAOI and not the Viridis plant which contains the DMT.

If you haven't drunk a brew made from these 2 plants, you simply have no experience with Ayahuasca.

I am sorry to say but i am on the "you don't get it - team".
I sense a strong negativity from you, regarding the use of entheogens.
You seem to cling to a negative view of those substances, by saying its demonic!

Pleasw don't derail this thread and infuse people who have difficult jouneys with your fear.
Ayahuasca is neither a good cop nor a bad cop, she just is, your Mind creates the duality.

No progress is gained without killing the old first, to give room for the new, and then hope we don't copy cat the old, or as less as possible of the weak links in us.
In this mechanism, you define this "killing act" as a demon-in-action, and is your free right, but we could also call it "the way we're set up in this game" without heavy emotional connotations.
The pain in life is worst if there is no training, so we're in for a balance search.

Entheogens are special training programs, and one must indeed question compatibility. Yet, working with appropriate dosages, and sorts of plants of choice, can tune for specific individual level, tuning and using "the demon" at your service not as a side effect as you say but as a tool for main purpose.

A well balanced "effort/hurt to gain" can be highly productive, like for example one can learn to feel fine about having fear and learn not being stunned by it, learn to proceed and not being dominated by that emotion. This result will pay off a thousand folds throughout life. I know you know that but here it comes:
Then you could say that NOT learning this lesson (by omitting deep session to avoid it's implications) will result in more pain spread out trough life, than the pain of learning the lesson in a deep session(s). Now where is the pain devil most prominent? Yes, by NOT learning the lesson. This puts up your thinking upside down.
Just my thoughts on it.

AstraLex, What I don't understand about your position is, simply - why? What is the reason for this torment? What do 'they' get from this?

So far this year I have been to a hell realm twice. The first time it went on for hours, and did indeed feel like torture, but at the end I had an enormous emotional purge. I felt lighter, happier, not only that but strange synchronicities have been occurring on a daily basis since.

The second time, on oral harmala and changa, I think I witnessed the 'area' of consciousness (that resides within us all) that is responsible for hatred, extremism, and the ability to do unspeakably cruel things on the behalf of their religion or whatever. I witnessed crucifixion amongst many other gruesome scenes.

For me, while extremely unpleasant experiences, and not something I would wish on anyone, I learned from them, and the second time, there was no fear. (there was heavy nausea though )

Heaven and hell occupy the same space. Two sides of the same
coin. Life is the same. It can throw some pretty gnarly and upsetting shit at you sometimes, and maybe, maybe part of what our beloved plants do is help us work through that in the most positive way possible. Labling these things as 'good' or 'bad' is too 2 dimensional for 4d and beyond. 9.5 times out of 10 I will have a tremendously positive experience. I still go in every time expecting to have my mettle tested.

That answer is a bit too pat for me. It's like answering the question, "Why would an inexperienced climber ever try to climb Mt. Everest with no guide or team or support?" with "Well, there is no One True Way." Sure, that's a given... but some ways are wiser than others!

Questioning the wisdom of a personal choice is not the same as denying personal choice or being dogmatic. And no doubt for some people, solo work is their path. But wow, what a risky path. It's dangerous at worst and, for most people, difficult and less profitable at best. I can't think of any reasons to deny oneself the benefits of a bonafide wisdom tradition other than ego, ignorance, or stubbornness on the one hand or a genuine soul level drive on the other, in which case may any and all the Gods save you!

This is in no way to disparage people making such choices. If you choose solo work, may you be safe and receive the learning and healing you need. And may you remain open to receiving help and guidance from the experiences of those who have gone successfully before you.

I too disagree with this commonly held belief. But I disagree equally with your 180 of it.

It doesn't ALL come from within one's own psyche... but most of the time it does, at least for the untrained.



The experience should no more be taken at face value than any other naive interpretation should be clung to. When people start work with teacher plants, *most* of what they encounter is simply what's inside them being reflected back to themselves—their own fears, hurts, angers, etc. But not everything. These experiences are not simple and straightforward, and they boggle the Western mind.

To navigate skillfully requires a lot of training and development... until then, a person tends to interpret the experience through the very limited lens of what's familiar to them. But what's familiar to us comes from our world, not the other world that the plants help us enter. I've seen that Westerners almost always misunderstand their aya experiences because it works so differently than the world we are used to and operates from a vastly more developed level of consciousness than we come to it with.

This is one of the huge benefits of working with an experienced shaman. If your ayahuascero is unable to offer you ways to understand and reframe your experiences in ways that make sense (and surprise you) and ultimately help you along your path, work with a more skilled one.



My own experiences demonstrate to my satisfaction that work with ayahuasca, properly done, does not lead to hell and in fact leads to much healing, learning, and increasing ease and joy in life. It's been said that aya is the best way (known so far to the wise teacher who said this) to let go of everything you're not so you can be exactly what you are.

That said, it's not a panacea or magic bullet. Nor does simply drinking a decoction of Caapi and a DMT containing plant constitute proper work. I'm sure hell and worse is easily available, and through nothing more than innocent ignorance and accident. Please all be careful!

Hi there,
I am new and I would like to share with you my bad experience in consuming Ayahuasca.
Two weeks ago I went with my partner; I am 50 in in my 30 I had good experience with sometimes smoking grass.
This experience was very difficult. Most of the people started feeling good after 20 minutes, while it took me longer... probably I was the last 'effected'. All started ok... relaxing feeling, heavy feeling and interesting patterns.. Then I felt some sort of a pain in my chest... felt also pain in my heart. This pain set me on a very bad trip. I was thinking I am going to die. The question I brought to the retreat was related to my chronic back pain … I wanted to know what I need to do so I can reduce the pain… While I agony I was asking myself about the chronic pain… but I was struggling to relax on the dyeing fear. Well, chronic pain is not the worst thing I could die. Was the only answer I managed to get. My partner was relaxed and giggling from time to time… I looked around to see all of us … I realised that everybody took Ayahuasca and that in case of emergency nobody could help me… my thoughts went even further I was blaming myself why I didn’t research about Ayahuasca before I came here… now dangerous it is. I appear to be so naïve to myself. I had even a picture of my body left in the forest and that everybody left and it will be dangerous to report my death. I kept repeating myself that this is going to pass soon… it was almost 2 hours when the new round of Ayahuasca came that I felt better and in this world. I didn’t dare of trying the second helpings, but left sitting and wondering why I had such a bad experience. I felt very lonely with my odd experience… Particularly in the morning when all of us were ‘awake’. I was the only one with the bad trip.
I am not scared of dying and I am not sure if I have a heart condition (will check with my GP) I only know that I very often feel different and odd and wonder how this experience could have happened? Any thoughts good people? I am curious to hear some comments and sprinkles from your fountains of wisdom.
Thanks.
Gloria

In the end... It seems like it was your ego trying to hold on as hard as it could. "I should flee this isn't for me!"

I ALWAYS feel like I am dying, and have to let go. The "crazy" part is you getting there, near the end of that you will get "ego death" and move on. Until then you are at the mercy of all your ego's fears and as you get passed one a new one will form and try again to talk you out of it.

Ayahuasca is extreme.. I have never done anything as intense. I always white knuckle as we do heavy doses.

1 hour 45 mins: https://www.youtube.com/...=flh7O182YlU&t=6496s
McKenna talks about everything your ego throws at you to distract you from the journey.

Gloria, did you have caffeine? Also, I always suggest a facilitator, preferrable someone with medical training. Most "groups" have these requirements.

See my post above as well McKenna tells it truely. Your ego is scared of death. It will do everything it can to hold on. "I'm not dying ego.. you are".

Is it not possible to give this lady some realistic advice? She has barely used any psychoactive substances at all and to my way of thinking has fallen victim to this craze of expecting physical or mental issues to be helped by taking a random trip with a bunch of strangers. Why was her partner not more supportive during and after? Where were the "so called guides"? I call bullshit on this whole ayahuasca deal, so called retreats...get rich quick on the snake oil con more like, where is the follow up? I hope you feel better, it will pass, you did nothing wrong, taking these substances will not really provide any more answers than taking time to talk about and think about your pains and situation. Good luck Gloria, weed edibles could help back pain, but if you do try them, please research the subject and always, as with anything, begin with a very low dose and don't re-dose if it seems not to work

Try making a list of all the things that you are scared of and facing them. This way if you ever do take ayahuasca again you will be able to go on a deeper journey. You should not take it again until you have gotten over a good portion of your fears. Good luck and have fun.

Most people will say, the purge is essential and the group experience is essential, i know many peoples lives have been transformed with aya ceremonies. What i learnt was you have to live a clean lifestyle, eating clean(hate to say it if you eat animals but whole foods vegan is what your body wants) and exercising regularly, i find this is actually a very large part of the psychedelic experience. The cleaner your live, the easier the purge is. Now whenever i go through a purging process i always adjust certain aspects of my life to become the best possible version of myself. Listen to mother Aya

In my personal opinion and some people may disagree, you can get to the same states on high dose psilocybin, make a tea, (5-8 grams to start), i don't experience a psychical purge in tea usually and work your way up, i am working my way up to 31 grams, but you do have to wade your way into the deep end. If you have the opportunity i would even recommend microdosing with mushrooms for a while and working your way up to 5/8grams and then 10grams, the 15grams ect. Why i say wade in, to integrate the experience properly, if you dive into the deep end but don't know how to swim you might drown, but if you wade in, learn how to swim, swim out, enjoy the swim and then swim back to the shore safely bringing the experience back with you to properly integrate.

BUT if its the spirit of AYA you are after, and don't want to deal with the purge, i would recommend PHARMAuasca.

Woah, sounds like you had a powerful experience..

I can't give you any advice other than perhaps.. Smoke changa instead of taking ayahuasca for a while. The spirit is there, but the experience will all be over in a short period of time, it may not be as bad as the ayahuasca because you don't need to stay as long.

Otherwise, the experience is so subjective i acctually cannot speculate on anything else.

Sorry to hear about your first Ayahuasca ceremony. Believe me, there is a reason you experienced that "hell". It's up to you to translate on your own about what happened during the ritual. Please don't think of it as a bad trip because there's a lesson to every trip!

I recommend you to try it again, but this time, don't fight the effect — go along with it. Let your imaginations, or should I say hallucinations flow freely. Taking Ayahuasca can be challenging no matter if you're a first-timer or not. Always keep that in your mind.

This is a lesson in conditioning your soul.
The universe is always in a state of homeostasis.
I understand your fear and your judgement, I have had a similar experience myself.
You are a part of the universe, a part of the program that is fractalizing and creating its own existence through individual experiences.
This lesson is meant to give you awareness into the future of your life after death, your vibrational conscious field that is influencing the rest of all other conscious experience in this universe.
We all are part of a larger whole, you can only subjectively change the outcome of your personal consciousness by actions in a certain direction, you are still alive, and there fore you can direct your experience in this dimension.

Don't give up, the worst of experiences give birth to universe. Once there was nothing, and once there was nothing, there was something.

-D

Give up control, control is an illusion, you must submit to the higher powers to understand them and appreciate your role in the universe... your conditioning has lead you to think you are special and that you have an identity... we are all expressions of our experiences, and those experiences are expressions of the program we call reality.

Live well, Love, and be happy. This is how you win the game we call life.

-D

I've only had a few ayahausca trips and I've had both good and bad experiences. I know for a fact you need to get through the worst of it before something good comes out of it. I believe you should try one more time!

Don't let stress you out too much.