How does an ayahuasca breakthrough compare to a freebase DMT flash? Do the visions change and shift just as rapidly or are the transitions more elegant and slowed down? Are there even any pronounced differences other than duration and intensity?

It's completely different.

There is no comparison really. Ayahuasca includes harmala alkaloids which have psychedelic effects of their own, and for that reason the whole experience is different.

Ayahuasca gives true meaningful dream-like visions, while smoked DMT gives lots of psychedelic “mind fuck” and mostly just a bunch of meaningless hard to understand visuals of things that make no sense but are fun to watch. SWIM almost never gets true visions from smoked DMT, but nearly always gets them from ayahuasca. For SWIM, smoked DMT is like a roller coaster ride. It’s fast and furious, but you get little of anything out of the experience other than fun. It’s over almost as soon as it started.

With ayahuasca, you get dream-like visions, with sounds, places, people, etc. Its far more of a beneficial experience. You’re there in that mind-scape for a few hours, and so you can easily interact with the visions. Also, the harmala alkaloids give it a quality that is more natural feeling. They somehow tame DMT. DMT on it’s own is more wild. The harmala alkaloids slow it down and make the visions more meaningful. They also give the visions more of a story line quality.

DMT snorted, or taken sublingually in the form of Virola callophylla resin, produces effects that are more in line with ayahuasca. But still not quite as dream-like because of the lack of harmala alkaloids. The trip is slowed down and the psychedelic “mind fuck” is almost gone. You have more time to integrate the experience. It’s a lot more beneficial. SWIM finds it produces far more meaningful visions than smoked DMT. SWIM prefers this to smoked DMT by a long shot. Note that pure freebase DMT burns like hell if snorted or taken sublingually. I do not advise trying it. If you want to experience snorted or sublingual DMT the resin is the only way SWIM found that doesn’t burn the hell out of you.

Great description/comparison, thanks Ron! I always thought that if you have a fair amount of experience with fb dmt then aya wouldn't be anywhere near as over powering as apposed to if you had no experience, almost like you say a tamer version.

well SOMETIMES the dmt flashes are a roller coaster fun ride...but there have been a few pharma experiences that i have had..that have been WAY more overwhelming 'eye candy'

i feel that sometimes oral dmt can be WAAAAY more powerful than smoked dmt...because when you feel the avalanche of oral dmt climbing over you from nothing...it can be WAAAAY more intense..

and in my experience..i have had more profound experiences with smoked dmt...and the reason for this is because it throws you so far..to places that it would take a lot of will and stability to travel to with oral dmt

I find a strong aya session to be way more intense than any DMT flash I can remember. The flash is a lot like someone tapping on your shoulder and running away before you turn to see them. Whereas aya/pharma seems to glare back at you until you prove yourself... and sometimes you can't and get stared down to the level of a small boy.

the thing is...so many people here are smoking changa...so the whole ayahuasca has harmalas and smoked DMT does not thing doesnt always apply.

I would be interested in how others think smoked DMT and harmalas compare to ayahuasca.

That's a whole different thing from smoking pure DMT because the harmala alkaloids are present. That's more like smoking ayahuasca than smoking pure DMT.

The intensity of both just depends on how much you take. Since ayahuasca is a much friendlier experience, most people can handle a high dose of ayahuasca much better then a high dose of vaporised DMT.

Therefore i think ayahusca can easily be more intense to most people, because you are allowed to take more and go further and deeper.

But ayahuasca depends very much on the synergy between the harmala's and the DMT.
The caapi vine ads something that is undescribable. It's a sense of bliss, a divine touch.

When i say that the caapi makes the ayahuasca experience a divine experience or a very blissfull one, you might not believe me or think that i'm exagerating.
But i can promise anybody who try's it that they will experience this bliss.
If you try it, you will find that i'm not exagerating.

No-one could ever take ayahuasca and deny it's blissfullness afterwards.

That's the difference between the two, in my opinion.

I have to disagree here... I think ayahuasca is much more challenging and demanding than smoked dmt... Ayahuasca makes one confront one's self quite deeply, there may be several physical symptoms that some people dont enjoy (though I would personally say its a necessary part of the experience and am grateful for whenever it comes)..

DMT, on the other hand is much faster, and even though it can be quite immersive, it ends fast and there are not as many lessons and the difficulties of digging in one's own unconscious troubles. Also rarely there is nausea

Yeah, i know exactly what polytrip be talking about.
That bliss that you feel with the caapi is absolutely effing delightful and is one of the main reasons i keep goin back.
I did experience it once with a rue and jurema brew, but I suspect it ocurred as I had supplimented the harmala with some THH to make the harmala profile more vine like...well that and the fact that I think i need more MAO inhibition than the next man.

I also have to agree with endlessness. The brew can be certianly more confronting, and unlike smoked dmt, if you dont like the way it is going, you cant really say to yourself..."its ok itl be over soon" No sir, not with the brew, you just have to face it, confront it, sit it out, which can be hellish...especially when you consider that psychedlic time seems to go on for eternity.
But like you say, I feel this is gonna be much more benificial to the user. With vaped spice, its just bewildering and i always have to question what exactly did i just learn from that!!??

I've never had even the slightest of a bad time with DMT vapour and I've never had a oral DMT experience with THH, only rue extract. Its like getting my ass kicked everytime Well with the higher doses anyway. The lower doses seem to be very blissful and I always feel great afterwards.

I do have beneficial lessons learnt from both brews and flashes also.

Do you mean that you would find it easier to smoke a high dose of DMT? would you find it doable to smoke something like 150mg?
I don't.
But three strong doses of ayahuasca (150 grams of chacruna or 30 grams of mimosa) is VERY INTENSE, but also doable. You will remember everything, you won't black-out and you will even be able to find your way around in your own house.
With 150mg of smoked DMT this would be all much more difficult.

I have had what would be considered by most to be bad times with vaporized DMT. It has happened to me several times. Currently I am only willing to dose orally with thh, after a dozen or more spice/thh voyages I am convinced that that is the way to go. I can achieve a level of psychedelia that is as deep and off the charts as a vapor flash with oral, but because of the come up is slower I find myself travelling in a direction that is more loving, more harmonic. With vapor, there's a flash and then you never know. My experiences with rue is alway wild and unpredictable. DMT seems to have a different personality with me when I potentiate with rue. The experience is darker and the flow is more agressive.

I have found myself in the past being less prepared and therefore maybe less respectful of the molecule before smoking. I believe this does have something to do with the bad experiences I have had vaporizing. An oral dose is a whole other thing because I go into it with more of a plan. The oral experience normally lasts me about 3 hours so always in the back of my mind before I begin this is a serious consideration, Time. I prepare myself better when I am to go under for a few hours. I realize this is wrong to treat vaporizing any differently. I have taken a break from vaporizing for now. I have no plans to do it again for a while, mostly because of my last experience being ? scarry, frieghtening?

SWIM would have to agree with Ice House Shaman. DMT orally with THH is a very nice experience, not nearly as wild as smoked DMT or DMT with rue. It’s a superb psychedelic experience that allows you to go really deep into it without much “mind fuck”. That’s got to be the best way to use DMT in SWIM’s opinion. The only other option is taking it sublingually via Virola callophyla resin. Smoking DMT is too wild to be of any benefit to SWIM. Taking it with rue is almost just as wild. Taking it with THH is like no other experience there is. It’s one of the best psychedelic experiences you can have. Full of lots of meaning, and you don’t easily get lost in the experience. You retain a lot of self control with that combination. SWIM loves it.

Iv had hugely positive experiences with vaped spice - always intricate, with a full and clear storyline. it only goes too fast if i smoke too much.
I really really really didnt expect to see all these comments saying its smoked for fun - iv never smoked it for fun - its an immense learning experience always.

what i would like to know is what pharmahuasca is like compared to smoked spice and compared to natural ayahuasca - using very pure dmt fumarate and pure harmine and harmaline(either, or, and ratio decided as they are separate)

Where would you place the harmala sublingual + vaporized dmt experience?
Swim recently had such a trip. Patterns where unfolding at a much slower pace, and he saw a glimpse of real people passing by...not just fractal patterns, but dreamesque, blurry people....

This is a new thing for Swim, and he wonders if this quality is bound to increase by upping the dosage from 10 to 20mg next time.

69ron:
‘With ayahuasca, you get dream-like visions, with sounds, places, people, etc. Its far more of a beneficial experience. You’re there in that mind-scape for a few hours, and so you can easily interact with the visions.’

Jorkest:
‘i feel that sometimes oral dmt can be WAAAAY more powerful than smoked dmt...because when you feel the avalanche of oral dmt climbing over you from nothing...it can be WAAAAY more intense..’

endlessness:
‘Ayahuasca makes one confront one's self quite deeply…’

Soulman:
‘The brew can be certianly more confronting, and unlike smoked dmt, if you dont like the way it is going, you cant really say to yourself..."its ok itl be over soon" No sir, not with the brew, you just have to face it, confront it, sit it out, which can be hellish...’

Perhaps the unfolding events on aya are more like a psilocin trip?
Or maybe not:

69ron:
'DMT snorted, or taken sublingually in the form of Virola callophylla resin, produces effects that are more in line with ayahuasca. But still not quite as dream-like because of the lack of harmala alkaloids.'

Makes me wonder…
If psilocin could be administered beyond the blood-brain barrier, would it then ‘launch’ one into hyperspace?
I am guessing 1) the ‘complete biochemical (path)way’ the molecule has to travel to the main site(s) of effect (the serotonin receptors, beyond the blood-brain barrier**) is very much influencing the experience. The longer it takes (aya, psilocin), the more of a gradual breakdown of normal reality/ego is experienced. As compared to the overwhelming flash of dmt when vaporized. Btw never done dmt myself (yet). Needs to be noted.

** the pineal gland is beyond/before the blood-brain barrier?

But 2) even beyond the blood-brain barrier other differences like in exact molecular structure (receptor affinity), spreading of the (different sub) receptors over different brain areas with different (cognitive) functions and sub functions, different alkaloid mixtures/ratios, and so on…could very much trouble the picture… and make room for a broad set of more or less different psychedelic experiences.

Anyway, he gradual breakdown of the ego plays big part in the mushroom trip I know for sure and is most meaningful, in particular when I won’t reach the full depths. Only few times have I been real deep in there. But my ego was not there, so little could be brought back. I prefer deep for learning, trying to understand/comprehend, and very deep for awe. Both are inspiring.

"Makes me wonder…
If psilocin could be administered beyond the blood-brain barrier, would it then ‘launch’ one into hyperspace?
I am guessing 1) the ‘complete biochemical (path)way’ the molecule has to travel to the main site(s) of effect (the serotonin receptors, beyond the blood-brain barrier**) is very much influencing the experience. The longer it takes (aya, psilocin), the more of a gradual breakdown of normal reality/ego is experienced. As compared to the overwhelming flash of dmt when vaporized. Btw never done dmt myself (yet). Needs to be noted."

Psilocybin can launch one into hyperspace anyway by the oral route. I have had this happen a few times. You just need to get good mushrooms and eat enough of them. Eat more than you have ever eaten and lie down in a dark room..if you dont get there..eat more.

the breakthrough for me is a bit different than DMT..kind of more colorful..but definatily very similar..but it holds you there for so long..it can be frightening. I very rarely take that much psilocybin.

I am fantasizing for a while now, on using free-base psilocin. Sublingual seems the best way to use it, since the molecule may be affected by heat.

I started a thread on that at this forum and it showed that some people have indeed done this with great succes. It produces a more powerfull experience than DMT that also hit's faster because free-base psilocin passes the blood-brain barrier faster than free-base DMT.

did you prepare the mushrooms similar to yopo by just powdereing them and freebasing? and then hold it in the mouth?