Great post Olympus Mon, thank you.

I am curious on your opinion of the Shamans through your own observations;

after 1000's ? of ayahuasca ceremonies are these men transformed or enlightened for lack of a better word?

Please share your thoughts.

good question, ya know they aren't what some people think. they are people first, fathers husbands and community members. some try to [put them into a guru box but that's not their purpose.
the plants are the teachers not the shamna's, their work is to help people get the messages from the source. they are not the source. they do however healings and have very special powers. ive seen them in 2 [places at the same time and shape shift into other entities.

as far as enlightened, i dont think so. they are however very happy joyous souls because they have worked so hard and long with the plant teachings. they have done their work on them selves first then learned how to heal and guide others. But it is still the individual that must do the work. they cant do it for you only help you find your way to your own truth.

^that is interesting about them being in 2 places at once.

I have an older friend who I used to take mushrooms with alot, and he spent some time apparently in Dakota on some reserve and they were part of the NAC or something..anyway he had some interesting peyote stories..

One story in particular was of this one time they ate a really large ammount of peyote and they were all sick, and one of the other guys(a shaman I am guessing) had had enough and said "im done with this tonight" and he literally bilocated(in his words) and his spirit/double or whatever simply walked off away from the circle while his origional body remained there for the rest of the ceremony.

Lol I never really did know what to make of that story...but always found it facinating.

sorry for the delay my friend, didnt see this till now.
yes, i have worked with recorded icaros and they are still very effective. obviuolsy nothing could com[pare to the energy exchange of real life interaction but ive never done an at home aya with out icaro's on loop.
i hope that answers your questions.
my friend here has a great digital recorder and ill be getting the files from him before i leave. if you want i can email them to you. maybe not the whole lot because of bandwith but a select few of the most [powerful ones.
OM'

Been listening to some of available online (e.g., You Tube) icaros... can't say I "like" all the songs, but some are indeed quite nice. Will try (who knows, maybe in a few hours???????) listening with the proper frame of reference.

But again thanks to all here who have volunteered info about the songs, what they mean in context, where to find them.

Fantastic post, I find myself nodding in agreement. The "shaman" - really "plant doctor" would be a better term - I stayed with down there, in Madre de Dios region not far from Brazil, in the south of Peru, was very down-to-earth; when he was talking with his family or village people the conversation would revolve around practical matters - cooking food, building projects, etc. Not an outwardly or ostentatiously "spiritual" person, but focused on whatever task was at hand. An older man, in his 80's, obviously in a bit of pain in the body due to a life of hard work, but was still able to work around the house. Not outwardly enlightened in that he pretended to be a "guru" or acted like he had some special knowledge, and the "ceremonies" were very basic, just blowing tobacco over the brew, serving it, but he had a certain presence where I felt very safe and protected drinking there. He told me that there were "brujos" on the other side of the river, deep in the jungle away from the cities, but that the vine taught him how to protect himself. He only sang once, also the only time he drank while I was there, but I felt the song go right in my facial structure, and learned how to use muscles in my face to smile (the muscles lying just below the eyes). As Dr. Leary said, "The only thing left to do is smile, smile, smile!" That smile medicine stays with me as a type this over a year later...also this one said that he wanted to have a wife, but all the women he had left him when he would on occasion run out of money!

Sounds like you've come across a similarly special place. Enjoy! I do have the goal of going back down whenever the time is right...perhaps I'll message you to ask information about these people. You're in Pucallpa area, now, yes?

Here's a little gem I found on youtube...

Thank you for sharing this Om. That must have been quite the inner ordeal when your Lady friend got the secret stash from the other bottle because of your Spanish. I want to hear those songs.






"further up and Further in"
Aslan

I have mixed feelings. I don't think ayahuasca SHOULDN'T be used outside of ceremony. But i honestly feel it's somewhat dangerous to do any deep work as an untrained soul in a home context. If you're taking a little or even a moderate amount i suppose i don't see the harm, though i don't see the point either (mushrooms are far more pleasant for that). But going that deep can go south really quick and that's where the ceremony really comes in to provide a safe space to encounter that darkness. My first trip ended up in all sorts of suicidal and delusional thinking and I honestly believe if it weren't for the shaman and the setting that I would have not pulled through so great. I was begging people to kill me, telling them i broke my brain and needed to go to the hospital, and all sorts of other stuff that any trained shaman should be equipped to deal with and capable of diffusing as best as possible. I suppose it's a bit like having a good holistic doctor. Sure you can buy the supplements and herbs and whatever yourself, but having someone who is deeply in tuned with that particular healing modality help you avoid fatal errors and help nudge you in the right direction when you're struggling is priceless.

YES.

Having someone on the outside who is more experienced than your are, who has experience working the energetic realms, and assistence fro many plant spirits, makes a whole lot of difference.

Of course it does. And both ways of working with it (alone or with a skilled master) have their ups and downs.

But what i dont understand is why people think ayahuasca is somehow more difficult or risky to take at home than say mushrooms. I think its how it entered cultural awareness with ancient traditions still somewhat intact, whereas mushrooms have become a widely used recreational psychedelic. But if you can handle mushrooms at home alone at high doses then aya should be fine. Aya is actually far more forgiving in my experience and many i know familiar with both in those settings. But others may differ; it probably depends on several factors.

It's not. My issue is more with context. Ayahuasca ceremonies tend to go a lot deeper than most of us average joes like to trip in our homes. Last time i asked a shaman for a "moderate" dose I was teetering on the edge of a ++++/+++++ and the time before that was a good bit stronger. These dudes absolutely do not mess around. Now i see nothing wrong with taking light to moderate doses in ones house. If you are experienced with high doses of other psychedelics then i don't see the issue either. It's not that i think Ayahuasca is particularly harder to handle in its respective dose ranges. It's just that i personally feel the ultra-high doses and ceremony is really where the magic of Ayahuasca is. I have taken smaller doses and just found them terribly uncomfortable. Too much nausea, too little returns. Ayahuasca for me is all about purging the deepest-held limiting beliefs and emotions. That experience is far too intense for the majority to just do in their home with a buddy. Not saying it's not suited for anybody. I realize that individual preparation and experience are all factors here. And that some may genuinely also enjoy the less intense experiences that can be had at home too. But I hear a lot "why bother spending the money to be around a bunch of random people when i can take Ayahuasca comfortably in my own home". In my experience I wouldn't even fathom taking it alone. And of course, that's just my experience. But it's probably others experience as well. That they may be duped out of a positive relationship with this incredible medicine by not understanding the importance of context. Those who can take ceremony strength doses alone are a minority of the general demographic of psychedelic users.

I suppose it also helps to define some things. When you say high doses of mushrooms what do you mean gram wise? Psychedelic forums can be somewhat unrepresentative of how the average person defines things like "strong" or "light". If i had a conversation with people on a college campus about taking 5 grams of mushrooms the majority would think that's too much, i'd think its a comfortable dose, and then a very small few would admit to taking usually 7-10g. Just trying to get a gauge for what your perspective on strength is

I basically agree with most of what you're saying. If you were wanting to have a powerful personal experience alone, then the fungus is your best bet, IMO. 5plus of some potent stuff will give you a great journey and clear right through you, eradicate faulty thinking, and basically give you a damned good servicing.

You are right about Aya being something that is best done with a Curandero, because it's something suited for 'working with' and although can be 'smoother' than fungus, it seems to me to be much deeper, and something that is more suited to group therapy rather than solo style fungal experiences, where protection isn't such an issue.

I hope this is an appropriate question to ask for this thread, but does anyone have any tips or insight in sussing out whether or not a shaman is a "good" one? And by good, I mean both skilled and ethical.

I have done a few ceremonies with a shaman who travels around with his female apprentice. He finds himself in my area once or twice a year. I'm glad I did the ceremonies I did, as I feel they really helped me untie some pretty complex knots in my psyche. But I'm concerned about the idea of doing more with him next time he's in town because I've heard, through a couple people in this particular Ayahuasca circle, that there was somewhat of a falling out with a couple of his local apprentices over the matter of money. I didn't think much of it but during one of the ceremonies he started talking about money. I just ignored it because I was still in the middle of a vision. But thinking about it now, I'm left feeling a bit off by it. Why bring money into ceremony?

After the ceremonies I attended, he sent out an email asking for money to help with his goal of building a healing center in Central America so he no longer had to travel. I was so high and elated from my experiences, that I readily donated a rather large sum of money for his cause. I told him to please keep it anonymous, but found out later that he brought it up in a ceremony I did not attend, in the context of guilting others into donations by showing my comparative generosity.

I understand that he deserves to be supported if he has dedicated his life to the work. And yet still, I'm left feeling a bit... off.

I'm also concerned about his Ayahuasca brews. I know he likes to add all kinds of different things to them, including Toe (datura), and Amanita Muscaria mushrooms. Should I be concerned about this?

I have to say that I'm inclined to be my own Shaman from now on...

There's there's this thread about questionable providers, I'm not familiar with others off the top of my head and it's not really a topic I'm knowledgeable about. I have pretty strong feelings about self-appointed healers, but no advice for you as to how to find a good one. You raise a ton of issues with the person you're talking about though. I don't buy the idea of trucks being cheaper in the US than Costa Rica, plus the fees associated with bringing one across all those borders (I'm guessing)...sounds like a cash grab.

He used a tactic that many of these sham-shamans use- using the vulnerability of a person who has just undergone a transformative experience to fleece them. A basic confidence game. Instead of making sure that you are integrating your experience well, helping you do so, he asks for money.

You had a powerful experience,that is without doubt. Whether he had anything to do with it or simply took credit is up for debate, though. Unfortunately, there are many people who have gotten into this'healing' game using ayahuasca a new and powerful hook to bring people in. Be careful with this guy.

You ask if you should be concerned about those admixtures. Are you unfamiliar with them, because both are very strong plants with dissociative properties. Adding these things to an already powerful brew is unnecessary and with what you've already said about this person,very questionable. Personally I would never ingest either one,alone or especially in combination with ayahuasca.

So many alarms bells about that "shaman". All was said by null24, but I just wanted to confirm everything he said almost mirrored my thoughts and feelings.

First and foremost, always, always, always trust your intuition. If something feels the least bit questionable about the provider, turn around and walk away immediately.

Beware anyone that openly solicits for money or "donations" or charges a set rate. Medicine people need to eat too, but the ones with integrity know that they will be provided for, gratefully accepting only that which is willingly given without enticement.

Adding to the above, ceremony should be open to everyone. If anyone is being turned away for financial, or any other reasons, you have a sham-man not a shaman.

Some questions to ask:

Is this person well respected and known to be a (wo)man of integrity amongst their family, neighborhood, and community?

Does this person display humility and genuineness, do they speak and act respectfully and kindly toward others?

Does this person maintain and display balance in their own life, would you consider this person a role model for right living? Do they talk the Red Road, or do they walk the Red Road?

Consider how you came into contact with this provider. Avoid those that advertise or recruit.

And probably most important of all, do they have a good sense of humor? The "real deal" should have a bright smile and plenty of well embedded laugh lines.

It has been said that a genuine shaman or medicine person or curer would never refer to themselves as such. That having a community that places that role upon them is the true mark of authenticity.

Now to the big question...

Can YOU fulfill this stringent criteria? Why or why not? What would it take to empower you step up and fill this role in your own life?

Ultimately, the master can only guide to the student to the door, but it's up them to walk through it. If one truly wishes to dedicate themselves to the medicine path, it's vital to develop a personal relationship with the sacrament. At the end of the day the experience is between you and the spirit, the sage is merely a facilitator.

Just look at them as artists imho. They have a talent you can tap out off (icaro's, set and setting) and for the rest they are just human beings like any other, negative sides all inclusive.

The best of school teachers I had were nothing of fine characters, but they had a great talent and knowledge to bring the lessons presented. I'm very glad to have met them. The more human sensitive teachers were not in particular the best teachers to transmit the knowledge. I gladly settle for a rough feathered mouth that is effective in its purpose.

If someone sings an icaro that shakes my bones into heavens, I don't care if that person is manipulative in general life. Do you think Loreena McKennit or Enya's souls are as soft as their music? (LM is of hard core military type!)

I see no problem in shopping on persons talents, as well as bring your talent (without your personal sh*t) to the others. I think we can help each other with our talents and should not be ashamed to fuel on others talents, and not be timid to offer our own. Mission accomplished.

The problems start imho when someones true talent gets extrapolated toward someones whole personality --> idealization, adoration, ... strange thing is we don't have that kind of problem with the baker around the corner who bakes wonderful stuff each day and may be a bull besides that. We really dig this kind of contrast without a problem, but when it comes to shaman they should be near holy to be considered well in their profession??

Many times I've been baffled by this contrast of beautiful products by not-so-beautiful souls. I've settled with this and learned to shop their talent offered and let go of the rest. Good wine sells itself and the label might be a bit off, the bottle might be dirty, I don't care, it's about the wine.

Shamans should be considered on their shamanic talents, which comes down to icaro's mainly and foremost as said before in this thread many times. Their songs can mean the direction of your experience all together. It's surely a talent as some shamans sing very ugly icaro's and youtube is full of disasterous ear unworthy jungle songs. The format is no guarantee, it keeps coming down to personal talent, and what works for you might not work for me etc...

If some shaman would ask me money outside the context of the ceremonies, I would treat that equal to any stranger asking me for money.

2cents