Ok that was the issue which I refer to. I heard at this thread that Jungle Spice is likely still mostly DMT with only very little amounts of other stuff. But as the Naphtha is even containing some crap, then the Toluene pulls must contain much moooooore crap. Yes, some of the *crap* are the wanted Jungle-Effects. But how about the other crap ?

I will just give random numbers, but just to make sure what I mean:

Naphtha maybe 80% DMT 20% Crap
Toluene maybe 60% DMT 35% Crap 5% Jungle

Ok I have no idea of real numbers, but you see what I mean:

Yeah a part of the impurities is the jungle stuff, but you will get superior extra waste ingredients and they are not removed via re-x ?

That's so strange in my opinion, because then your Spice is loaded with other stuff.

Sorry to sit on this point for so long, but I just want to make sure to get the right solvent for maximum efficiency / quality.

THXX

Did you actually look at this thread or this thread?

The questions in your prior post make it seem like maybe you haven't. Perhaps you could use more specific terminology, beyond "crap"? Also, "jungle effects" are subjectively-reported experiences, not a specific compound.

Well then I'll try again:

So I am just (possibly overly) interested / concerned about the unneeded (!) inactive impurities in the Toluene Pulls. Yes, there are *Impurities* which may cause the *Jungle Trip* but those are excluded for my question.

And I read those Threads and yes - they tell that there is just mostly DMT and it's not really a reason to worry about unwanted, inactive components - but on the other hand I have also got some posts here - or read quite alot elsewhere who talk about impuritie amounts, which potentiate when doing toluene instead of naphtha.

It simply sounds that those guys tell that there will be simply a significant amount of unneded, inactive impurities (former *Crap*) - as even the Naphtha pulls make it worth to be cleaned up afterwards.
So are these people wrong or is 6% (refering to the Thread *Summary of jungle spice analytical work*) for those people already this immense amount of being impure ?

Because as I think 6% is like nothing, and then if Naphtha-Pulls are even *cleaner*, then why re-x Naphtha Pulls anyways, if they must have like 1-3% (if Toluene is at 6).

I'm just thinking for now:

Hey if it's really like that, then just use Toluene, completely remove it and just use the oil as it is - as 6% won't be a big problem.

The 6% figure is referring to a crude methanol extraction of mhrb, for the purposes of HPLC analysis. See here:



This has no real bearing on a/b extraction, as the methodologies being employed are fundamentally different. For example, yuremamine will not survive the high pH of an a/b extraction, so that 28% is essentially meaningless in the context of the results of an a/b extraction.

If you read further on in the post/thread, burnt elaborates on the actual analysis of jungle spice (which is significantly different from the crude methanol extract). That is the section that's truly relevant to this discussion


When it comes to toluene or naphtha pulls, you don't have to re-x at all, if you don't want to. Many people choose to re-x for a number of reasons, ranging from attempts to ensure high purity, to wanting to make sure there is no trapped solvent in their extract, to wanting a substance that's easier to deal with, as burnt told you earlier in this thread:

Ah well maybe I'm dumb but I can't find any numbers for impurities regarding the Toluene pulls : /

I'm just so curious about it, because I'd rather use Toluene from the beginning, as it may be the most senseful thing as far as I got all those information here at this thread.

So I am of course curious in this number, but even if noone can give it to me, wouldn't this also *solve* any problem regarding impurities:

As even in the Jungle it is mostly DMT and when using a lot of Toluene pulls, you will end up with mostly DMT - couldn't I just simply re-x the Jungle with Hexane (or something else) ?

So the people do NOT re-x, because they think that the extra components will get lost. But as you get DMT just like you would, if you'd use Naphtha pulls, the DMT would also be FULLY soluble in your re-x-solvent and therefore you could easily separate it from the other stuff ?

I mean yes - you will lose the *jungle components* - but let's say you don't care about it and want to get simply pure DMT, you could do it like this:

1. X Amounts of Toluene pulls

2. Re-x the Wax with Hexane

3. = Pure DMT

So wouldn't this yield the most amount of pure DMT out of your Bark, compared with the regular Naphtha-Pulling ?

(It's just that I want to maximize for the max. efficiency in the beginning )

THXX

That approach is absolutely viable

You could also salt out the DMT from the toluene (rather than evapping) and do a mini a/b on the product using hexane to pull the DMT.

If you evap the toluene and then re-x with naphtha, you will likely find that a portion of the initial product will remain dark red/orange/yellow, even after numerous re-x's. That is still, most likely, relatively pure DMT

Sorry if we took the long way around, I was just trying to make sure that there was a good understanding of the "jungle spice" phenomenon.

Ok cool ... well I now have just some minor questions, but as you seem to be a professional, I will just add them here instead of creating a new thread ;D

1.) Is it worth heating up the Toluene like it's done for Naphtha or will it just catch more inactive substances ?


2.) How hot can you make your solvent before having to fear a degration of your DMT ? I think I read alot that if you want to decrease your aquaeous soup, then you should just boil it = 100°C ... if this is the case, then there will be no fear that it can degrade at T below 100°C ?
ALSO
for removing any Toluene, is it safe to put the Spice on my room-heater over night ? Yes - it's not so damn hot, but as it's not in solution anymore, does this little heat maybe already cause crystals to oxidize ?

3.) If I want to create Changa from the Spice, then it does not really matter if its oily, as I can still apply it with Acetone. But I also thought: Hey then I could even leave out the defat-step. But then I am not sure how much of the spice is actually DMT. Do you know how it would be possible to get an estimation ? Like 70% of un-defattet DMT is actually DMT and the 30% fats ?
Or is it possible to loose the Fats while doing a re-x ? I guess they are also soluble in Naphtha ...

Ahh... here the User *Endlessness* is saying that a re-x is indeed removing them:
https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&m=89727
But isn't this unlogical ? I mean you PULL them with Naphtha and it means, that they are soluble in Naphtha. Then they should also be soluble when you do the re-x ? And you just get rid of thinks, which don't solve.

THXX

1) the heating of naphtha was to make spice more soluble in it. This problem does not occur with toluene as spice is already very soluble in it at room temp. So no need to heat toluene, pull with toluene as is.

2) make your naphtha little warm like 40 deg C. No need to go beyond that. Nothing is destroyed at that level and more heat is of no use.
Don't worry about oxidizing because it stays just as active once it is oxidized.

I would not evap a whole bunch of toluene nor naphtha to get the products, looks like ghetto style. Likely some solvent stays trapped especially when you deal with an oil. These things can use a vacuum and some heat to get the solvents out properly.

3) in re-X you make the concentration tons higher that during pulls. That makes the crystallization process differently under temperature changes (freezing).

Backwashing + mini a/b rids of any fat-syndrome you might have. It would also be better instead of evaping a bunch of solvent to get to your actives.

Keep studying

Ok 3 new questions:

1.) What do you mean with Backwashing ?

Put Oil on a Filter Paper into a Büchner Funnel and then pour your washing reagent over it - but what do you use then ? I guess Toluene won't be the case.

2.) And what is a mini A/B ? How does it differ from the regular A/B ?

3.) Again the Temperature-Question: Ok so 40°C for the pulls seem ok, but the intension of the Question was that I want to get known whether I may evap the Toluene with heat. I may use a laboratory cooler to get my solvent back and as it needs running water for the cooling effect, the procedure shouldn't take ages. So therefore I would have to heat Toluene possibly to the boiling point which is like 100°C. Will the DMT survive this process?
When there is just a little bit left of Toluene, I'll stop destilling though and let the rest just evaporate - to avoid the DMT sitting on dry air at 100°C - I guess that would be bad for it. But how for heating up to 100°C in Toluene ?

THXX

Just clarify in a lot of the jungle spice analytical threads from years back they were peak area comparisons. What I mean by that is comparing signal intensity of DMT and whatever else was visible in the instrument compared with each other in an approximate way.

So when its like 6% other that doesn't mean 6% of the mass of that extract is other. It means there was 6% other in the instruments chromatogram (6% is rough number too). There are plenty of chemicals which are very likely to be in a crude alkaloid extract that would not show up in those sorts of analysis.

Its likely jungle spice has more impurities like plant pigmants, polyphenolic compounds, etc (stuff in wood) that make up a lot more then 6% of mass. But this will also vary.

Jungle spice is just impure dmt. I never really thought it was stronger or weaker then regular DMT. Just slightly different dosing and perhaps different dosage due to the way it vaporizes in a red oil versus pure.

You should do some study and find these things out yourself. But I feed you a spoon, it's actually off topic here :

There is no official nomenclature, this is just habitual language.

* Regular A/B is done on plant material containing brew/tea/soak. Optional after the A there's a defat with a non polar solvent. After the B one makes the pulls with the non polar solvent.

* Backwashing is washing (shaking) this combined pulls with a little water that contain an acid. All actives go from the pulls-solvent into the acid water layer (check if pH stays acid). So you 'wash' the actives 'back' into an acid water layer. This is the a from mini a/b.
Any fats will stay in the non polar solvent and not goto the acid water layer. The non polar solvent is to be discarded or reused.

{One should never drink this water layer as an end product. It is possible to evap this and then mix with sodium carbonate to make a paste and dry it and pull with acetone or ethanol, these are called dry-teks.}

Usually the a gets basified (becoming the b from mini a/b) and pulled again with a non polar solvent. If your regular A/B was pulled with toluene, now this second a/b can be pulled with naphtha.

So you see when doing a mini a/b then there's no need to defat between the A/B.
In essence A/B and a/b are same but done during different stages.
Mini A/B and a/b is the same, I just found it funny to play with the capitals/non-capitals.
Instead of mini a/b one could also say a secondary or successive a/b, but that is not in the habit to call it that way.

Do a 'search' with 'mini a/b' in the subject rule

SnozzleBerry, first of all, thank you for being considerate and making it clear that you weren't just trying to be negative. I know we are just trying to be as accurate as possible.

Regarding the factor of present alkaloids influencing potency: some people feel that jungle spice is stronger than pure DMT. This could be due to other alkaloids that potentiate the effects of DMT. The concentrations of these alkaloids may vary and also the sensitivity of individual users to these alkaloids may vary. Therefore, the subjective potency of jungle spice may vary depending on the concentration of different alkaloids and the user's unique neurochemistry.

Perhaps it is inappropriate to make assertions about the reasons for jungle spice's varying potency. The only thing that can be said for certain is that the potency of jungle spice appears to vary based on subjective reports. These reports are enough to say that the potency varies, so it may be useless to take the discussion further into the possible chemical explanations for this variation.

Did you look at the analysis threads linked in this thread (as well as burnt's re-affirmation that "jungle spice is just impure dmt.")? What alkaloids are you hypothesizing are affecting potency?



Not quite, imo. The only thing that can be said is that people who did not perform a double blind or blind test reported subjectively different experiences, which could very well have been due to self-suggestion (as already stated a number of times in this thread, and others). In fact, when members have done blind tests, they have been unable to distinguish between colors of DMT based solely on the experience.

SnozzleBerry, I think you are right about the actual science. I am just trying make statements that could be useful to Brennendes Wasser. My statements are meant as propositions for topics for that user to consider rather than empirically proven answers to their questions. Even though some research has been done with the intention of being thoroughly scientific, I don't think this research has progressed to the point where I can accept their results without a significant amount of uncertainty. In some ways, the scientific research does deserve more weight than subjective reports, but the subjective reports still deserve consideration. What I am saying here reflects my personal approach to science and research. If someone disagrees, that is totally fine.

I did look at the analysis threads. Very cool stuff.

Also, this statement is very relevant to the point I've been trying to make. I'm not sure that I've seen analysis that actually determines the potency of an extract.

Why not? What methodological errors do you see in the analytical data provided so far that causes you "a significant amount of uncertainty?"


Subjective reports certainly deserve consideration, but when the science shows that people are smoking the same (pure) compound and having a wide variance of experiences, it evidences poor reasoning to then assert that the different experiences are being caused by "other alkaloids" when self-suggestion matches more closely with the nature of dmt and the analytical data at hand.

I would contend, that in these cases, the scientific studies and the experiential reports actually can (and should) work together to lead to the creation of new questions/hypotheses about the how's, why's and what it means that chemically pure compounds can induce such a wide range of subjective experiences, at times, in apparent opposition to the effects one would expect at a given dose. This is how the subjective and scientific should function in tandem, rather than, "Well, I smoked dmt and had different experiences, so the dmt MUST be different, somehow, regardless of what the analytical data shows."




But we are not discussing a "crude alkaloid extract" (e.g. soaking plant matter in a solvent and then evaporating the solvent) but rather, the result of a proper A/B (or stb, or similar) extraction. So it's really not all that relevant.

Also, analysis doesn't determine potency, but rather purity, and we have posted quantitative analysis in the CRP subforum. Syberdelic appears to have been referencing purity earlier, rather than potency. And, as I've been saying, we have seen that the experiential potency of DMT appears to vary irrespective of purity, which could be a result of RoA, neurphysiology, or a variety of other factors outside of the drug. As stated earlier, this is where the experiential and scientific data should be coming together to form new hypotheses.

I meant jungle spice is less pure then recrystallized dmt. Hence cruder. Whatever though I think you both know what I meant.



Yea some of the earlier work on this site didn't do that. To do that you'd have to make calibrate instruments with pure DMT (a more quantitative not qualitative analysis) to really quantify how much DMT is in jungle spice on average.


I thought for a while and still think that jungle spice just changes the way DMT vaporizers. The plant oils or whatever the impurities might protect the DMT from breaking down during the heating. I dunno for sure but it seems more likely then potentiating given that DMT is still main alkaloid.