SWIM thinks they found some broad leaf acuminata Phylodes (1 person mentioned they think it is acuminata, some more confirmation would be awesome)

SWIM is thinking of basing it on Cyb's ATB (vinegar, lye, naphta) or similar. (with table salt)

Wiki reports "Broad-leaf A.acuminata phyllodes resulted in 51% MTHBC, 32% DMT, 16% tryptamine, 0.5% Harman"

read the post about MTHBC related to neurotoxicity and there were references to the parkinsons case but nothing solid and it seems a bit "unresearched". Considering MTHBC is over half the compound (really wanted the narrow phylode variety but could only get the fat leaf) SWIM is a bit nervous.. will re-Xtal remove the MTHBC?


lastly, several teks don't mention the PH levels just the quantities - some people have said the PH is the critical point (you'd make the assumption the PH is correct if following the tek amounts to the tee) - SWIM would rather test the PH levels as SWIM is dealing with wet Phylods which could throw moisture levels out..

should SWIM be aiming for PH 3 and PH 11 next step? SWIM heard extra Lye can make a big difference - people have had more success adding extra Lye

yes mate that is definatly acuminada.
broard leaf.!
the phylodes of broad leak are quite tricky to work with!
the gold standard of acuminada is the thin phylode acuminada.
quite a bit smaller tree and the phylodes are far superier for extracting and are perfect AAA
for ayahuasca brews.
and yes you do realy need to basify to about 12 or 13ph.
acuminada is a strange acacia extraction and yeald wise.!
this time of year is the lowest point for alkaloid content.
which is quite strange considering that on the east coast this is the peak of
the alkaloid content season for obtucifolia and courtii and most
outher dmt containing acacias.!
the bark of the broad phylode acuminada will have .7-.9 at this time of the year.
and the verry peak of the season is around late october.
notice the curved tips of the phylodes ,
and look closely at the edges of the phylodes as the have verry tiny hairs on them.
best to use a magnifying glass to get a good look at them.
the phylodes could have as little as .2 up to .7% right now depending on rainfall
and soil type in the area where you found them.
i personally would not bother trying to do an extraction on those particular spieces
of acuminada at this time of the year.!
but would be a good experiment for you to try and see wat comes out.
but the bark will be beauitful .!
you should be able to collect some fallen branches easily around that area,
and if you look at the flower buds of your specimens.
they are quite small , and the main reason that acuminada is so low in alkaoid at this time of year as far as we have been able to dissern compared to the east coast acacias at this time of year,
is that they seem to put all there energy into flowering and neglect growth in the rest of the tree incase there is not much rain over the summer,
they seem to put all of there energy into flowereing and seeding.
ITS ALL ABOUT THE WATER!!!
if you notice while you are driving around the area that most of the bigger trees are on the
side of the road,!!!
that is because of the water run off to the furrows on the side of the road.!
even though that area has gotten a fair bit of rain in the past few years ,somtimes it
is extremly dry for a long time .
they are extremly drought resistant, and if they are not growing in the valleys or on the sides of the roads than they are growing out of the grannet outcrops where they can get
water or moisture from the rocks.!
if you have alook at my post under the introduction essays.
under the heading . dmt no caustic no solvent,
you will find a verry extencive pdf about all spieces of acuminada, and where to find all the different sub spieces so you wont have to stess about identification .!
the thin phylode acuminada is the gold bro.!!!
and the phylodes are pretty much pure dmt.
and can be up to 1.4-5% in late october all the way through summer.
it seems to be the heat stress in the dryer months that trigger the high dmt yealds.!i hpe that answers you id questions and then some.

LIMOLORDS

ACUMINADA DREAMING

WESTCOST

wow thanks heaps!

SWIM will find your pdf! That will be awesome!

Do you have any thoughts on the high MTHBC content (51%) with the fat leaf?

SWIM may have some nice naptha cooling.. fingers crossed there are some results as it's a 1st attempt (also leaves fresh and wet) - would much rather the narrow leaf but couldn't find it

SWIM isn't worried about yield this time - a lil bit of something GOOD would be great

Thank you!

RE: MTHBC. You won't know the alkaloid profile of your specimen until you've analysed it. Nature is variable!

With Wiki advising half MTHBC and it being a neurotoxin - even with seasonal alkaloid variability (as Limo pointed out now is the low point here and I've also got the lower yield variety..) The MTHBC content is EXTREMELY high % wise compared to say the narrow leaf or MHRB.. Maybe with the dmt content being low now the MTHBC content could even be higher as a % of the alkaloids, maybe less..

The fat leaf variety results tested here also points to high MTHBC content so it seems a common theme.. maybe it's 30% maybe it's 60%..

The question is, should I be concerned about having such a high level of neurotoxic MTHBC in the product and is it possible to remove without having a lab

Could you give us a quote for actual scientific evidence that MTHBC is a neurotoxin? Last time when I looked into it, all I found was insubstantial handwaving and innuendo.

What wikipedia article are you referring to that still claims neurotoxicity? Even the wikipedia article that was copy and pasted in many sites as "proof" has been updated and now no longer claims this.

You should never treat wikipedia pages as evidence. It may be useful for quick illustrative quotes, but in matters of strict factuality, it is only to be used as a possible starting point for actual research. As an acute illustration of the above, consider Acacia Acuminata's MTHBC content as claimed by wikipedia. If you check the reference it gives for this claim, it is simply.. no reference!

There is an existing thread on the nexus that discusses MTHBC, 2-methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-beta-carboline. You may find useful information there.


First and foremost you should be concerned about doing proper research.

To further quell your otherwise unsubstantiated fears, most betacarbolines are not very soluble in aliphatic hydrocarbon solvents like naptha. Most common kitchen extraction teks would not result in much MTHBC, even if you wanted to. The uv fluorescence pointed out in the MTHBC thread could be a simple test for the presence of even minute quantities of MTHBC in your extraction results.

Hi Pitubo,

Its good to know that they aren't that soluble in naptha thanks!

The fact that the test results were around 50% for MHTBC in the plant I'm using instead of 3% or so from other samples makes me errr on caution

I did find and read that post and it seemed inconclusive.. it seems there isn't much research that has been done.. most samples have almost zero in it (3%)

I'm unable to find a confirmed report of it being harmful, but I also can't find anything positive about it, or any tests being done besides on rats

I thought I read about it possibly being related to the compound that gave the guy parkinsons for life - the fact he had a RC that was untested and was damaged for life I believe people should ERRR on caution, particularly since there's been zero tests besides on rats and there was a potential for me to be having 15 times what you would have in an aya brew - smoked and going straight to my brain

Nice to know it's not that soluble in naptha thank you

Here's a little graphic I made for you!

You should also know that I made a presumption about 2-mthbc, based on my observation of the properties of other betacarbolines. Do not treat it as a scientifically established fact. The same caveat applies to the fluorescence. I dare say that, albeit unproven, these are reasonable guesses though.


But what tests are you speaking of? Wikipedia is not a good source, as I explained earlier and I particularly pointed out its glaring failure to provide real references for those numbers.


It is good to err on the side of caution, but it is better to critically evaluate the facts before estimating the asssociated risks. In this case, both the link to mppp+ and the quoted 2-mthbc percentages are without any factual basis, and particularly the parkinsonism link is outright dubious. I surmise that some less than scrupulous researchers abused the common occurrence of 2-mthbc in foodstuffs and even the human body by constructing a tentative link to mppp+ as a means to get funding for research into parkinsonism at a time when that disease was a trendy source of funding. It just shows that even "established" scientific research has to be seen with a never waning critical mind.

He is talking about the test I made, posted in the acacia analysis thread, I suppose. One acuminata broad leaf var had a lot of mthbc (not 2-mthbc).. Either way, notice it was extracted with DCM, very likely that substance would not come across if simply extracting with naphtha or any of the typical non-polar solvents we use.

Anyways its easy enough to test with TLC (click my signature link) or as I've been offering here: https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=74123

Thanks for the clarification, endlessness! I guess you are referring to this acacia analysis thread ? Could that also incidentally be the undeclared source of wikipedia's numbers?


A reaction with dcm would have resulted in a chlorine bearing product molecule, it would have attached a chloromethyl group to the nitrogen atom. 1-mthbc could not logically be the result of an interaction with dcm. In the other case 2-chloromethyl-thbc would be seen instead of 2-methyl-thbc. For reference, here (1) and here (2) are links to the articles by Simon Brandt et al. describing these chlorinated solvent interactions with dmt.

Anyway, 1-mthbc cannot be oxidized into a potentially toxic quaternary metabolite cf. mppp+, so the whole scare is moot for that case. Regarding 2-mthbc, in the the acacia analysis thread I found a post referencing an article that details 2-mthbc as "in vivo constituents of rat brain and adrenal gland"(3)


I wholeheartedly agree. These wonderful kits are a great help to amateurs everywhere!

--
(1) http://www.sciencedirect.com/sc...1708507007820?via%3Dihub
N,N-Dimethyltryptamine and dichloromethane: Rearrangement of quaternary ammonium salt product during GC–EI and CI-MS–MS analysis
Brandt SD, Martins CP, Freeman S, Dempster N, Wainwright M, Riby PG, Alder JF.
Journal of Pharmaceutical and Biomedical Analysis Volume 47, Issue 1, 12 May 2008, Pages 207-212
Abstract:

N,N-Dimethyltryptamine (DMT) 1 is a simple tryptamine derivative with powerful psychoactive properties. It is abundant in nature and easily accessible through a variety of synthetic routes. Most work-up procedures require the use of organic solvents and halogenated representatives are often employed. DMT was found to be reactive towards dichloromethane, either during work-up or long term storage therein, which led to the formation of the quaternary ammonium salt N-chloromethyl-DMT chloride 2. Analysis of this side-product by gas chromatography ion trap mass spectrometry (GC-MS), both in electron and chemical ionisation tandem MS modes, gave only degradation products. For example, 2 could not be detected but appeared to have rearranged to 3-(2-chloroethyl)indole 3 and 2-methyltetrahydro-beta-carboline 4, whereas HPLC analysis enabled the detection of 2. GC-MS is a standard tool for the fingerprinting of drug products. The identification of a particular synthetic route is based on the analysis of impurities, provided these side products can be established to be route-specific. The in situ detection of both 3 and 4 within a DMT sample may have led to erroneous conclusions with regards to the identification of the synthetic route.

--
(2) http://www.fsijournal.org/article/S0379-0738(08 )00133-3/fulltext
Halogenated solvent interactions with N,N-dimethyltryptamine: Formation of quaternary ammonium salts and their artificially induced rearrangements during analysis
Brandt SD, Martins CP, Freeman S, Dempster N, Riby PG, Gartz J, Alder JF.
Forensic Science International Volume 178, Issues 2-3, 4 July 2008 Pages 162–170
Abstract:

The psychoactive properties of N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) 1a are known to induce altered states of consciousness in humans. This particular attribute attracts great interest from a variety of scientific and also clandestine communities. Our recent research has confirmed that DMT reacts with dichloromethane (DCM), either as a result of work-up or storage to give a quaternary N-chloromethyl ammonium salt 2a. Furthermore, this was observed to undergo rearrangement during analysis using gas chromatography–mass spectrometry (GC–MS) with products including 3-(2-chloroethyl)indole 3 and 2-methyltetrahydro-β-carboline 4 (2-Me-THBC). This study further investigates this so far unexplored area of solvent interactions by the exposure of DMT to other halogenated solvents including dibromomethane and 1,2-dichloroethane (DCE). The N-bromomethyl- and N-chloroethyl quaternary ammonium derivatives were subsequently characterised by ion trap GC–MS in electron and chemical ionisation tandem MS mode and by NMR spectroscopy. The DCE-derived derivative formed at least six rearrangement products in the total ion chromatogram. Identification of mass spectrometry generated by-products was verified by conventional or microwave-accelerated synthesis. The use of deuterated DCM and deuterated DMT 1b provided insights into the mechanism of the rearrangements. The presence of potentially characteristic marker molecules may allow the identification of solvents used during the manufacture of controlled substances, which is often neglected since these are considered inert.

--
(3) http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0006295281902781
Identification and quantification of 1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-β-carboline, 2-methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-β-carboline, and 6-methoxy-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-β-carboline as in vivo constituents of rat brain and adrenal gland
Steven A. Barker, Robert E.W. Harrison, John A. Monti, George B. Brown, Samuel T. Christian.
Biochemical Pharmacology Volume 30, Issue 1, 1 January 1981, Pages 9-17

Abstract:
The identification and quantification of three 1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-β-carbolines as normal constitutents of rat brain and adrenal gland, using combined gas chromatographic/mass spectrometric techniques, are reported. Qualitative analyses of these tissues led to the identification of 1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-β-carboline (THBC), 2-methyl-THBC (2-MTHBC) and 6-methoxy-THBC (6-MeOTHBC), as determined by observed peak retention times, mass fragments and ion mass ratios. Quantitative analyses, using deuterated internal standards, gave the following results: THBC (ng/g wet wt) in brain = 17.5 ± 4.86, adrenal = 500.3 ± 163. 6-MeOTHBC (ng/g wet wt) in brain = 35.6 ± 16.6, adrenal = 1113.7 ± 300. Mechanisms for the formation of these β-carbolines as well as their possible function in vivo are discussed.

Thanks for your post pitubo

Btw, I didn't meant to imply that DCM would create MTHBC as an artifact (though I am def aware DMT after a while could react with it), all I'm saying is that DCM would more likely dissolve it if it was there in the first place, as opposed to something like aliphatic naphtha.

I haven't looked much into MTHBC metabolism and all but certainly 2-MTHBC doesn't seem to be an issue, as we discussed here: https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=14048

Hey, but NMT + DCM could well produce MTHBC. DCM is a synthon equivalent for formaldehyde there.


Also, I'm attempting to introduce the idea that 2-MTHBC might be behind the purported 'special magic' of leaf-brewed aya versus what people say about caapi + extracted light. We don't seem to know enough about the molecule to say much at all about its effects in humans. Has anyone seriously studied the implications of its presence in leaf + vine brews?

pitubo and endlessness thank you (endlessness for posting test results and offering tests and pitubo for clarifying and clearing my concerns!)


I wrote my welcome essay on my experience with an ATB extraction of broad leaf acuminata this morning - what I find strange is that what I got was very weak (from the 2 tests the 32% dmt content sounds ABOUT right as I had 30mg and got almost nothing, 50mg closed eye visuals and from that dose my guess is 100mg will give me full visuals and 150mg would probably launch me - I'm hopefully going to test 100mg tomorrow!..

The effects were pleasant, there was sound hallucination/distortion and a really nice body feel, the closed eye visuals were softer - not quite as "sharp" fractals. I believe whatever alkaloids I have extracted have added and changed the experience as you mentioned as you may get on ayahuasca

Endlessness.. I would be curious to see what I have got (I didn't weigh my first extraction as I wasn't confident it would work, I just wanted to see if I could get SOMETHING but am going to do another extraction on the same material and will happily weigh the material before and after! Also I plan on playing with acuminata more in different seasons, it would be really cool to see seasonal variations if that is something you are willing to help with


Thanks guys!

(edited as I can post where I said I couldn't 2 seconds ago)

Its Acuminata, and Phyllode has 2 'l's.
Regards G

In that case, acuminata has one 'c' (and a lower-case 'a' )





I will be champion pedant at the Nexus!

but, spelling keywords correctly really helps others to find them in searches


Great practical knowledge, Limolords - spelling is very much a secondary matter by comparison.

spelling
shmelling


whateva floats ya boat bro

cookins got nufin to do wiv
spellin bruz.

cookin up ,

i think too much talk
not enough
cookin.

Gee ,that is a rather large pile of horse drawn bark isnt it though!!!???
JUST LIKE THEY DO IT IN THE AMAZON SON!
http://http://

id put my own pictures here,
but,
somepeople?
might have somthin unpositive
to say about large amounts of bark?
or wasting resources or wateva bro???

HOW MANY KGs HAS ANYONE HERE EVER SEEN?
EVA
I BET NOONE HERE HAS EVA SEEN 1 full kg in one place , rock.!kgs,
iv forgotten how many there were and are.!!!
more than , on both hands!!!???
rock,
you should see wats realy going on in the amazon cuz.!!!



every one of those sandalwood trees was attached to an acuminata.
the whole rabbitproof fence is made of acuminata posts.!
large scale is not wasting resourses.
its actualy just simply cleaning up the bush,
like a good little LORAX!!!

GO FREO