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Is Freedom an Illusion? Options
 
DmnStr8
#21 Posted : 5/20/2017 5:24:31 PM

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OfTheVoid46 wrote:

As you've somewhat implied it could be boolean but the reality is there's too many variables.
I do however believe freedom is an illusion whether it be freedom in society or generalized freedom (think: free will). There's only so many possible patterns that can emerge in this "physical" universe. While it may seem infinite if it existed long enough at least one thing will repeat. I am sure many things have.

Those ants crawling back and forth snagging leaves are a prime example.
Now, we're humans rather than ants but are we not living basically to do the same?
Take away the law and only leave nature and there are still things we MUST do or die.
Even having to eat defeats the whole concept of freedom - depending on how you define it.

Overall, I believe it's all an illusion.

An exercise:
Go to the nearest big store.
Stare at every person around you one at a time just for a few seconds.
Try to figure out if they work, if they're a mom, etc.
Basically try to imagine their lives.
Look at the people beside them and realize how similar they are.
Then the next ... and next ...

We're all ants running around. When a person stops looking only at themselves and considers other human beings I feel it's obvious freedom is not real in almost every way it could be defined.


I agree with this! Thumbs up
"In the universe there is an immeasurable, indescribable force which shamans call intent, and absolutely everything that exists in the entire cosmos is attached to intent by a connecting link." ~Carlos Castaneda
 

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Northerner
#22 Posted : 5/20/2017 6:12:50 PM

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Posts: 804
Joined: 27-Feb-2016
Last visit: 17-Aug-2024
DmnStr8 wrote:
OfTheVoid46 wrote:

As you've somewhat implied it could be boolean but the reality is there's too many variables.
I do however believe freedom is an illusion whether it be freedom in society or generalized freedom (think: free will). There's only so many possible patterns that can emerge in this "physical" universe. While it may seem infinite if it existed long enough at least one thing will repeat. I am sure many things have.

Those ants crawling back and forth snagging leaves are a prime example.
Now, we're humans rather than ants but are we not living basically to do the same?
Take away the law and only leave nature and there are still things we MUST do or die.
Even having to eat defeats the whole concept of freedom - depending on how you define it.

Overall, I believe it's all an illusion.

An exercise:
Go to the nearest big store.
Stare at every person around you one at a time just for a few seconds.
Try to figure out if they work, if they're a mom, etc.
Basically try to imagine their lives.
Look at the people beside them and realize how similar they are.
Then the next ... and next ...

We're all ants running around. When a person stops looking only at themselves and considers other human beings I feel it's obvious freedom is not real in almost every way it could be defined.


I agree with this! Thumbs up

It's an excellent point. Society isn't slavery though (or even by de-facto submission of freedom), that's called civilization. It unites us. It makes us human. Otherwise we'd all just grow and kill what we need and never trade with anyone. We would still be living in caves. But free?

What exactly would we be doing if not the same as every other animal of our kind in our area? What would any of us do if we were free?

Freedom is an internal process, not something that can be perceived by others in any way. So in that sense it is an illusion, but only just as any other sense of self belief is.
The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
 
dragonrider
#23 Posted : 6/7/2017 1:18:03 PM

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Is there a more sensible definition of the word 'freedom', than very bluntly just being able to do something you want to, or rather, being able to choose to do or not to do something, to maybe do it some other time or to do it right now? That's my simple minded way of looking at freedom, anyway.

Well, i think i AM free to do what i want.

So the point that people like sam Harris make, is that i am not free to do what i want because the fact that i want it wasn't my choice in the first place.
(I think that sam Harris would even go as far as to say that actually 'i' don't even realy exist in the sense that i belief i do)

But i would say that that's realy a different thing. You're then more talking about freedom on a meta-level. You should maybe call that meta-freedom.
I think i'm free, GIVEN that i have desires, ability's and so on: the mere fact that wanting it wasn't realy my choice, doesn't make it any less true that i can reflect on those desires, and can decide to go with them or not.

But even saying that wanting something is not a choice is not completely true.
You can think about your desires and come to a conclusion like "i should be less selfish", or "i should think more about my own interests, instead of Always putting the interests of others first". And such processes of thought can in the long run realy influence the desires that you may have.

But i admit that eventually you do run into a sort of brick wall. Eventually, we all have these primal instincts that we cannot ever totally escape from. But these desires are to a certain extent malleable. You can train things like willpower or critical thinking.

So there is some freedom as well on the meta-level, though significantly less than on the basic, subjective level.
You could decide to not give in as much as you use to do, to the tendency to eat a lot of junkfood. But that realy does take some effort.

But the fact that you would want to make such a decission, could be driven by a concern for your own wellbeing. Wich again, is not realy that much of a choice. Everybody has at least SOME level of concern for his own wellbeing.
So there seems to be yet another level, a meta-meta-level, where we have even less controll.
And when you look at individuals from that perspective, like ofthevoid46 does, then indeed humans do not seem to have a lot of freedom.

But to me that's like saying that all your actions are ultimately just the result of you being born, in wich you had no choice at all, so in the end you yourself didn't realy play any role at all in anything you ever did. You're basically saying that all these people had no choice in being born a human, so they don't have ANY freedom at all, as all else follows from the basic givens.

 
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