OK, thanks.



Could you explain that a bit further?
I mean as it seems there is way not enough citric acid to make the citrate. Then how and why exactly does the FB precipitate when adding acetone?



Yes, that was clear. The question was about the color of the citrate, which should IMHO probably be yellow.

Edit:
I would think so, because as it seems most salts of it are yellow and because at least in liquid phase it is strongly yellow.

My guess was that it is all the citrate salt, doesn't take much to convert it.

Add enough citric acid solution to get a homogeneous solution, be safe to assume its nearly all converted

but then again, if hes using lemon juice, who knows, phlux never mentioned what it tasted like hehe. Needs to be tested again with pure citric acid.


the salt is also white, why would it be yellow?

most of the colour you see comes from impurities, though big crystals of the salts do fluoresce well too

That's what I thought so first. But his pictures do not match this. As the liquid would then have to be strongly yellow, before everything precipped out.



I would think because in all other known salt forms it is yellow. And also as I said, dissolved in water it is definitely yellow.

yeah your probably right then, i just made up some harmaline hcl, its yellow, more like neon though. fluorescent.

maybe i was thinking of THH, its a colourless salt


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It could be just his camera too, my stuff is isn't strongly yellow, just a faint neon, looks about the same in his picture, at least the cloudy one

and the colour of something in solution does not mean the colour of the solid, it will absorb more light in solution, and it depends on crystal structure too, so i wouldn't assume they are all yellow

Interesting. Didn't know that THH is colorless, whereas Harmine and Harmaline HCL are yellow.

That's why I'm asking, what could be the mechanism of this tek.

Ah, just read again the old stuff (The chemical gazette 15.12.1847, p479). It seems there that only the hydrated salts are yellow.
E.g. if you heat Harmine HCL at 212° (C or F?) it will lose the water and become white.

Edit:
So if the stuff he got is the citrate, and if it works like FASA. Couldn't one just take acetone with citric acid with no water at all?

Edit2:
Ah probably because the FB does only badly dissolve in acetone and using water helps???

And why then it didn't work at all when using quite a lot of citric acid?

yeah^^

crystal structure

its more apparent in metal salts, like copper sulfate is a great example. it turns white when dehydrated

some copper salts can even change colour based on concentration

i don't think the colour will tell you anything, the whole thing is a bit weird to me too, citrate salts should be super soluble like fumarates, but with enough acetone they can precip... needs testing.

The strange thing is he used a water acetone ratio of 1:1.
Edit2:
OK, but he latter evapped and added more acetone...That could explain a lot.

OK, will do some tests then...

It really looks like a fabulous tek to purify judging from his pictures.

Edit:
Hmm a bit of the FB would dissolve in the acetone (4mg/ml). If the citrate isn't soluble in acetone, then using just acetone and citric acid should work, no? (citric acid is quite soluble in acetone, I think I read somewhere here about 5mg/ml)
I mean always some FB dissolves then gets converted into citrates and falls out, then more Fb dissolves etc...but the impurities should stay in the acetone.

Yup, that should work, but only 4mg/ml?? i would expect the FB to be more soluble than that. But even so, it will work with good stirring

Yeah, The Traveler tested this after assuming it doesn't dissolve at all in acetone. Endlessness was sceptical about this and so he tested it.
https://www.dmt-nexus.me...&m=200200#post200200

So I will test it like that.
I only see the problem that one would continually have to add citric acid as the 5mg/ml would need a big amount of acetone otherwise.
Edit2:
OTOH I can just as well dump the acid as powder in there. It will as well dissolve when ready. In the end you anyways have to convert it back to FB.

Edit:
Hmm, but then I could also do it like a MDMA acetone wash. First convert everything to the citrate in a small amount of water. Evap the water and then acetone wash it.
But this tek would probably get the endproduct cleaner as there can be no impurities trapped in the crystals, like in the MDMA acetone wash tek.

Can one acetone wash the HCL?

Interesting, you can always heat it up too that will help things dissolve and move faster.

You can acetone wash pretty much any dry salt. But keep it dry, I like to use diethyl ether to wash.

there is nothing really different about this method that makes it so impurities can't be trapped in the salt, they can still. After a couple conversions though you get rid of nearly all of them

Thanks a lot, really!

I will make some tries...

Edit:
Btw, read further in the old stuff I mentioned. And there it reads about the Harmine HCL salt:


Is this basically what we do here just with acetone instead of alcohol?
The question is what he thought is a "strong" alcohol?

What is odd IMHO that only a sentence later he says this:


So here he probably means not "strong" alcohol???

BTW: He himself recommends purifying it by dissolving it (HCL salt) in water and then adding muriatic acid. The HCL salt will fall out and can be filtered. If not yet pure enough, repeat.

As I understand it, in his opinion this has the advantage over several Manske steps that nothing will remain in the washing liquid. So you will not have unnecessary losses.

Edit2:
BTW: The next time I come to it, I will simply test to directly acetone wash the HCL after a Manske. That should IMHO actually work.