hi everybody

I know the question is provocative, it is meant to be

If I look back at the moments when I have been doing psychedelics, it is always moments when I should have been doing something constructive in the real world, like: just being responsible, growing responsible, taking care of myself, thinking in advance, building for the long term..

Each time I try to do this, say for example take the afternoon to sit down at a table and work on a project that is important for my life, i have lots of emotions disturbing me. Fear of the future, self-depreciation, or just thoughts driving me away from what I wanted to do at the first place.

I can’t seem to concentrate. I would like it to stop, so that i can go on with my projects.
In these moments the temptation is big to just take a psychedelics and see what comes out. But to me this would be the victory of « attention deficit disorder ».

I use to grow something out of my frustration in these moments: that is "question the why", try to look for answers as to why i am like that, where it might come from, what are the circumstances fostering my lack of concentration, or ability to perform work. It became like a job in itself, a pride, giving me the impression of growing some important abilities. Today I question this.

For example at the moment, while it is easy to concentrate on what I am writing here, i think the reason why I am not able to concentrate on the work I gave myself is because I am doing it alone, and I am tempted to conclude that man indeed is a social animal, and that there is a natural explanation to my problem.

On one side I think all these thoughts might just be reassuring bullshit with the consequence of driving my attention away from what I should be doing for my own sake. On the other side I might also be forcing myself to actually do the work as something reassuring somehow, but that might be driving me away from what I should be doing instead: be more social and be with people, exchange ideas, share life, and the work would be done in no time and would be enjoyable.



I hope this is not too long and too fuzzy a story.
Let’s see what comes out of this post instead of out of the mushroom I have in my cupboard

I think examining the root causes is important and makes good sense. Only through such examination can you gain awareness, and only after awareness can you intentionally address the issues. Meditative practice of one form or another may help in cultivating such awareness.

That said, I would like to point out something that comes across in your words. You state




From my outside perspective, this seems like a categorical mismatch. That is "doing psychedelics" is an acute/discrete act that lasts for a quantifiable amount of time. Things like "being responsible, growing responsible, taking care of myself, thinking in advance, building for the long term" are all ongoing processes that, imo, only stop when you're dead. Really, imo, the acute action of taking psychedelics should serve to inform the actions/intentions that go into these longer processes of creating a personally-desirable self.

It sounds like you have other things distracting you from doing the things you say you want to do. Or perhaps you don't really want to do the things you say you want to do but have some narrative built up about "wanting" or "needing" to do them? I don't know you, so I can't say, but I think we generally tend to do the things we want to do. If you feel blocked in a pursuit, it probably makes sense to assess that blockage and any root cause(s) you can identify.


As to the question in the thread title, "Is the concept of spiritual path an escape from actually doing something constructive," I'd offer a few thoughts:

1) I don't think that concepts can be escapist, at least not until they're acted on. Heaven as a concept isn't escapist, but once people decide they don't have to work at this life because a better one awaits them when they die, sure that could be labelled as "escapist."

2) This would change the question to "Is the pursuit of a spiritual path an escape from actually doing something constructive," which I would posit is an overly broad/vague question. A spiritual path in the abstract is just that, an abstraction. What does it look like in reality? Take a few additionally vague examples:

If your spiritual path involves helping others while taking care of your own life, that doesn't appear to be escapist. If your spiritual path involves helping others as a means of neglecting your own life, that sounds like it could be escapist. If your spiritual path is to neglect everything while getting lost in the divine, that sounds escapist to me.

3) What is something constructive? Most of the things that dominant culture labels constructive (participating in the industrial economy, buying a house, consuming products, etc.) have rather destructive/detrimental effects. But even aside from this, say your parents want you to be a lawyer, but you would rather be an artist. Is one path more constructive? Some people will certainly say so, but are they really commenting on degrees of constructiveness or on some other measure (like security) that becomes easy to conflate within the context of consumer culture and industrial civilization?

The value judgement of "constructive" acts, much like the definition of a "spiritual path" appears to depend on the given individual and the choices they make (or any who would pass judgement on that individual and their choices).

4) I think that the most ideal "spiritual paths" (or practices) would be any that cultivate an internal/external awareness that informs a practice of doing something that you find to be constructive and promotes some sort of active empathy.

Or, put into a somewhat nihilistic perspective: Nothing has any inherent value, nothing has any inherent meaning, you have all the power in the world to create your own values and pursue spiritual paths in a personally-fulfilling manner that reinforces your constructive goals. Ain't that grand?

Discipline=Freedom. (jocko FTW)

just do what needs to be done. dont listen to the voice in your head, sit down and do what needs to be done, dont get up til its done. no excuses. it sounds to me like you know your slacking off, so just stop slacking and get your house in order. jobs first, slacking second.

just taking psychedelics isnt a spiritual path, its just doing drugs for fun, which is fine, but dont get the two things mixed up. any spiritual path worth walking is going to lead to a constructive future.

single pointed meditation will help to develop concentration, if you dont practice something you wont get better at it. Id start by sitting for an hour a day and concentrating on something like your breath.

nobody wants to do things that aint fun, but you gotta get them done or your life will become a mess, ive been in the same boat as you and I am currently working my way out of said mess, trust me its better to start now cos its not gonna get any better

There was a quote I heard one time in a Dan Millman (dood who wrote that Way of the Peaceful Warrior book) lecture that has stuck with me. He says that one day after giving a talk a man approached him and said "You know Dan I really wanted to start a spiritual practice but "real life" kept getting in the way, I'd have to go to work and pay bills and be with my family... It wasn't till much later I realized that this "real life" was my spiritual practice, and it demanded more and developed more than just sitting off in a cave somewhere and meditating."

I'd suggest that the process and purpose of the all important integration phase of the psychedelic experience is in how we take the lessons of these powerful experiences and utilize them to walk through our day to day living in a moar humble, moar kind, moar conscious, and yes perhaps even moar sacred manner.

Well..

First thanks to the three of you for these answers full of consideration. I’m honored . And your intuitions are good, and allowed me to see a bit more clear in that case.

I’ll try to describe the process of stepping back that just happened, in case it is helpful to someone stepping on this.

Here is a part from the wikipedia page on Internal Family System (IFS) (it is an approach to how the psyche works that helped me a lot in my life so far, beside psychedelics and exposing my problems on a trustworthy forum.



So with what you said, i realized that all this story was a mess because there was a role-play happening inside me. (I mean several parts of me interacting)

The first part is the one trying to make the other part work, and slacking it off.
The second one is the one being put to work until job is done.
And there is me , the guy who feels the mess, who doesn’t get the picture of the role play inside, who hears one part telling me «  you can’t make it alone, this is hell, stop this », and the other one saying «  don’t listen to that, it is distraction, you need to get it done », and who doesn’t know which one to listen to. No surprise I look like that:

Now i am aware of these parts, and i understand totally the part being chained to the desk, but the other part seems weird indeed. And i feel like the captain of a boat that has been taken over by one of the crew members. I don’t want to just kick him out, because he is trying to get me something by acting like that, so I need to sort this out with a bit more diplomacy to get harmony back on board, and sail strongly and happily to where we need to go together.
First what struck me was the close proximity to the situation I had with my parents regarding homework and how they put me to work.
Not knowing what else to do, i am starting an internal discussion with this part to try to know what she (it?) thinks she (it?) is doing. The answers are very short and basically there was no other motivation behind it’s attitude than fear. It is scared that without perseverance and discipline, critical things won’t be achieved later in life, thus it is trying to create discipline and perseverance by enslaving the other one to a desk.

Very simple, no discussion, little consideration, very mechanistic, no self reflexion on what example it is showing, no thoughts on trying to educate someone by taking it with you and showing him the pleasure in doing things.

Well, that part doesn’t know how to educate even if it thinks it is doing good for me, so it looks like the best I can do is show her how to do.
That is the point where I am taking the boat over again. This crew member is by my side, he is right about getting things done but i need to find and show him a suitable way to get things done instead of enslaving others.

For those who wonder about the parents/child relationship, I think the link is because I never made the effort to grow my own « nice » way of doing, when I need it what comes out is that part mimicking what i have seen before. My turn to spread love in doing my homework.

Ok that was a nice story i concur. The funny thing is when I read my first post again, i know clearly see when « I » hear « me » speak of « myself », which part is « I » and which part is « myself » and who is « me ». In Internal Family System, the big « me », the captain, is called the « self » btw.



Here it is, I felt like sharing this before going back to deal with my crew and my boat Hard job

You mention attention defecit disorder, ever read Dr.Gabor Mates Scattered Minds? Reading it was a like a blazing sun of truth shining on my life haha.

If what you're doing really feels like being chained to a desk or being enslaved I would question whether its really worth doing.

Discipline is freedom from your current limitations.

thanks humbleTraveler, i've been listening to to him on youtube for 3 hours. Good discovery, good man, thanks !!

thanks humbleTraveler, i've been listening to to him on youtube for 3 hours. Good discovery, good man, thanks !!

Awesome!! The book is amazing, especially the section on adult ADD

Eh, depends on the person and how you go about doing it. I've met people who have become homeless and lost due to the spiritual pursuit, and I've met others who have found their passions and thrived
due to spiritual pursuit.

I think it's all about moderation. If you're going to pursue spirituality, you should also pursue things like philosophy, science, arts, etc. so you can balance it out.

Unfortunately there's a lot of false-knowledge out there in the spiritual super market.

Another note is that pursuing the understanding of yourself is both constructive and destructive in many ways. You destroy false beliefs and you build yourself up, among many other things.

This has nothing to do with spirituality.




...This doesn't just apply to "charging off with a political agenda", it applies to every view you hold and every action you take...though let's use politics as an example, I have talked to many seemingly good people who subscribe to horrendous political rhetoric, now why would a seemingly rational, clear thinking, and decent human feel this was appropriate? A total lack of clarity. They are unclear on the nature of the situation, they are unclear on what constitutes a well lived life, they are unclear on reality as a whole.

...finding a clear understanding of the situation at hand should be a priority in life...

Some will see people take psychedelics, and they will drop out of the mainstream, and to many this looks like the destruction of the civilized world...



You can not define a "well lived life" by cultural standards imposed on you by those who see you as a worker and a consumer...








-eg

you can't expect everybody to take care of you, and you can't make your existance a problem for everybody else, so you must be doing something productive or something that contributes to others in some way, or, if you choose to live without material possessions and without a home, but can survive off of nature, or even off of trash or whatever, and this is what makes you happy and it's the life you choose to live, then that's fine, so long as you are supporting yourself, and not taking from or burdening others.

You can even be a researcher or a chemist and live in a nice house and own nice things while still supporting yourself, while "dropping out", taking psychedelics, and remaining free, I've made it work anyway...

Look at terence McKenna, a writer who survived off of the ideas he formed while traveling the globe and consuming psychedelics, he was well educated, he attended college, he could have easily settled into any number of mainstream caterers, yet he found a way to fully support himself, and live well, by doing the things he loved, by publishing books, or holding lectures, he even dabbled with drug smuggling in his early days, regardless, this is a perfect example of being able to "drop out", being able to do what it is you want to do, without ever having to depend on a soul crushing job, or a "boss", or a culture which has no value for the individual and cares not for the lives they waste...



-eg