Just for the record, I will say that there is little difference between an experienced curandero, shaman, or trip sitter other than cultural context.
Personally, if I'm diving into a deep psychedelic experience, I would prefer a cultural context that more closely applies to me. I respect the cultures of the Amazon, but being submerged in the experience while surrounded by Shipibo culture (modified albiet) was an abrasive experience. To be honest, I'd prefer to leave out of it the burning of sage, crystals, mantras, and all the other new-agey crap.

There should be a guy whose job is to read people's mind to know what is the good setting so that the newcomer feels safe for his first experiences. Just to be around until the guy understands it was just a facade to put him at ease. Then the first guy's job is finished.

We could call this guy a sh...., oh wait maybe a sit...
Actually we should invent a name for that guy ^^ ???

When a child is born on earth...



Friend

tseuq

A shitter?

Sage, crystals, mantras?

You sure you had a traditional ceremony?

+ I think you're very wrong about a Curandero. Butt, if you just wanted some introspection then yes, you could have done that at home. But cure yourself like a Curandero could? Nope.

There were no crystals. The icaros, I put in the same category as mantras. I really don't know because I don't speak the language but I am pretty familiar with speaking in tongues and that is what it seemed like. It did not seem like any kind of coherent language. They were not burning sage but some kind of bark, but seemingly with the same intentions, so same shit different herb.

I will give the shamans and curanderos healing credit when it comes to knowing their plants but from my experience, they mostly use prayer and blessings which is no better in my mind than some of the local Christian religions that refuse modern medicine and pray instead. The bottom line is that I don't believe in any of this mystical crap, so they have little to offer me.

I think that most of them are complete charlatans and the ones that aren't are brainwashed into believing their own BS which in so many ways is worse than the charlatans.

And no, I do not believe that I had a traditional ceremony for the simple fact that I took ayahuasca and I'm not a shaman.

Sounds to me like you haven't done any prior research, and don't even know what Icaros are about.

You may have also been unlucky with who you chose.

I'll leave it there.

I will admit that I have some serious issues from childhood regarding religion. I apologise if I'm offending anyone with my rants. This is something that I have uncovered because of the Ayahuasca experience in the jungle, but the shaman did nothing on a conscious level to help me discover this. Him and the others at the retreat only succeeded in exposing the fact that their practices are no better than the Christians from my childhood that were so disgusting.

That to me just doesn't sound right.

I can hardly believe that a well run Ceremony is anything like you describe. Surely you must have done some prior research to understand what to expect?

Who knows, perhaps you were unlucky and chose some non reccomended Charlaton?

I do wonder....

It was really a perfect storm of bad circumstances for him. I'm the one who took him to the Amazon. I did the research. I don't think it was the place so much as... everything is not for everyone. In the same way that a good psychiatrist will use different approaches and techniques for different patients, Syberdelic required a different approach than they were using in the Amazon.

At the time, Syberdelic was suffering from an extreme lack of sleep and physical discomfort from the heat. He's all Nordic and not used to dealing with heat and humidity without the relief of A/C, which was obviously not available in the jungle. It was also his first time traveling out of the US other than Canada and although I told him that it was a very different world out there, seeing is believing. Culture shock and physical discomfort, I think, combined to make him more... defensive, maybe.

And, of course, being so incredibly experienced with psychedelics, I think he believed he knew what ayahuasca would be like, whereas I'm a newb in this world and didn't expect anything in particular, just open to whatever happened. I had a good time, so good that I went back. He did not. It is not for him and that's okay, at least with me. I think his anger about it stems (at least partially) from not being okay with that it's not for him.

At least, that's my take on it.

ETA: Not that he doesn't have valid points about religion, this issue is just particularly personal for him.

I don't know if I made this point already, or perhaps I did on another thread, or perhaps someone else made it, but it's fairly clear to me that a very large, perhaps the greater part, of the Amazonian Ayahuasca Experience is being on -holiday-.

People say;
I'm going down to Peru to do some ceremonies (or whatever the accepted phrase is).
What they should say is;
I'm going on holiday down to Peru to do some ceremonies.

If you are sweating and being eaten alive by bugs, this might negate the fun holiday aspect of the experience to a considerable degree.

Knowing what to expect is no guarantee that you'll find an experience worthwhile, right?

I get the point of being on holiday/vacation and that is really another issue that may have contributed to my bad experience, but ultimately I found the ceremony itself to be an awful experience for me and this awful experience was mostly due to my repulsion to the religious practices.

What exactely repulses you in religious ceremonies if I may?

Not necessarily. Many people head straight to the Jungle to drink to heal conditions.

Besides it is unlikely that a person would be 'eaten alive by bugs' unless they allowed themselves, by not taking precautions. Most centres are fine, anyway.



I meant regarding the ritual/ceremony, itself:



And the thing is, i can understand what syberdelic is getting at because i myself have no interest or time for stuff like Church ceremonies. However, i did find the Ayahuasca ceremony to be quite beautiful and meaningful. I simply could not imaging sitting in a room without Icaros, or the Curandero and his apprentices, and the Mapaccho smoke etc, etc.

In fact that part was extremely important for various reasons, so it was essential to the overall experience. It is true that a lot of positivity of the ceremony/ healing, comes from the Curandero, IMO.

I think this has already been gone over;
Go to the jungle and take Ayahuasca to see, to do, to get "healing" for your sense of spiritual ennui. Sure, why not? As long as you understand that what you are getting is a touristic experience. How can it not be? You are a tourist! And there is nothing wrong with that, presuming that you are not a destructive, gullible or disrespectful idiot.

Concerning the treatment of real conditions, there is simply no way that going to the Amazon is a better idea than finding someone who will facilitate an ayahuasca experience in a more controlled environment, probably in your own country.

There is a crossover where real medical improvements can be made by a curandero that would not haves been possible with an unfacilitated experience. But it seems facilitation is available in so many places now, why would you bother?

It is a moot point that Amazonian curanderos are premier experts in the application and facilitation of Ayahuasca experience.
But, there is a compelling counterpoint that it would be a rare person indeed who, while processing a vast majority of people who have nothing wrong with them, who did not become jaded and view their "patients" as pay checks.
While I have not experienced an Amazonian ayahuasca ceremony myself, I have encountered plenty of priests, gurus, godmen and various other "cash for karma" types, and I know the experience of seeing the dead-eyed and mechanical performance of ceremonies for profit, absolutely. And I imagine to see this while tripping ballz could be pretty revolting.
Shake the rattle, blow the smoke.
Shake the rattle, blow the smoke.
Shake the rattle, blow the smoke.
Job done.
Cheque in the bank.
Now fuck off back to your own country so I can relax.

Yes, I can totally see that.
Not saying it's a universal paradigm.
Not saying it's not a universal paradigm!

Wow. You think like that? You mean you have good reason to think so?

I mean i personally advise people to travel and enjoy the sights, but i guess others may choose to focus on healing and trusting in a Curandero for their years of training and experience.

Obviously if you want to 'rubbish' all of that, then that is your decision. However whilst you do have a point, it is excessively pessamistic TBH.



Know what, exactly?

Since when has any Centre made any promises like you appear to suggest? It is widely understood that it is not necessarily so. Yes there are Charlatons, but there are good people. Do your research to help decide wisely.

As this conversation is devolving into little moar than a back and forth argument, I'm gonna go ahead and lock it up.

Have a nice day