i also believe in a true meaning.
The fact that it's up to you to make decissions about what you consider meaningfull, makes it all the more a challenge.

If it wheren't up to us it could not be true meaning either.

Imagine that the extremely religious people win and they force us to convert to their one and only true belief. Imagine the coincidently they where right.
So now i'm dead and standing at the gates of heaven and saint peter is gonna let me in, because coincidently i met the right tiranic rulers and i was spineless coward enough to completely give in to all their wishes.

That would be something.

Thats definately possible and I dread the day it happens But I cant imagine the true meaning to life being blind faith and worship.... that would be horrible :evil:

To create meaning is still a meaning though.

If its meaningful enough for you to create it, sure.....

Maybe we're the alls meaning, with no meaning of our own?

This topic never ceases to amaze me. I love it. I must ask you, 1992 (and Burnt for this matter) why do you take entheogens in the first place? It would seem a waste of time at least for me to take DMT if I had the preconceived notion that there was nothing worth seeing. Who would want to knock the video game ajar so to speak just to see some meaningless artifacts? Wouldn't that just piss you off because "Hey, I was enjoying playing the game! WTF? I know...I'll just blow on the cartridge, and get back to it." In your case, wouldn't you rather just play the game? The game being life of course. Why risk taking illegal substances, why jeopardize relationships, why spend the time and the money for this enterprise if it is just a meaningless, empty void like you say?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that the vast majority of people here take entheogens such as DMT for spiritual/metaphysical reasons: To explore other dimensions of existence, to attain deeper insights/understanding, to destroy one's ego, to seek enlightenment, to meet other lifeforms, Gods, Spirits etc. AND WE ACCOMPLISH EXACTLY THAT. I feel compelled to post a poll about this now, because maybe I'm wrong. I know nothing of this meaningless void you speak of. I personally think you are stonewalled by your own ego, and doubts. Don't take that statement the wrong way. Heck, say the same thing to me if it makes you feel any better. It would be completely futile though because my earthly ego is nearly dead for good.



I agree that materialism has improved the quality of life of millions of living people, but it has also degraded the quality of life of billions of people. I'm citing the near complete lack of human rights of billions of people in China. And also millions in Russia in the past more so than present Russia. These countries are run by materialistic Atheists that see people as disposable and worthless. Religious leaders are guilty of the same Tyranny. I'm only pointing out the wrongs of both sides. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Materialism didn't take hundreds of years to develop. It has always existed as the argument of people that are consumed by a level of doubt that has no end. Doubt is a disease that spreads through one's mind in an instant. It destroys one's spirit, and spreads like fire. Doubt does free one from illogical ideas, but such a destructive mechanism is unnecessary for one's advancement of knowledge and ultimately envelopes the victim in its own dark prison cell.

Burnt, your hope to encounter hyper dimensional beings is not compatible with Materialism. If you were to ask Richard Dawkins for example if he shared your metaphysical hope he would call you a bloody lunatic. Materialism is a Medieval perception of existence. People still think things are intrinsically solid, and that everything that exists can be touched, heard, seen, tasted, smelled. One of the biggest ironies of our time is that science has long dis proven the materialism it preaches.

The most fundamental physics fact pertains to this question: what is an atom? The answer is an atom is 99.999% nothing (physically) meaning it is in reality almost entirely not there. You may say, "what? How can that be? Everything is made of atoms! How then can we see, touch, taste, hear, and smell what is physically not there? That is impossible! It defies logic!"
And I say, "No, you misunderstand. What we percieve as matter (and our 3-D world) is not physical at all, it is a mental projection of the unseen/spiritual realm. E=mc2. Matter does not contain energy, matter IS energy in thought form. The religions are right in that it is the unseen/spiritual realm that creates this seemingly "physical" realm. Our existence, and our perception of existence is what many call a cosmic dream, an illusion, a matrix, whatever you want to call it.

There is no separation of physical and spiritual, we are only dealing with our separation from an infinite number of planes of existence. Our spirit is confined to this brainstew of a chemical trip we ingorantly call reality right now. Why then can't we with sober minds sense these other facets of consciousness if they are just as real? Because our five senses were designed to function in this trip, and do an excellent job keeping us here! We can't consciously handle more than one location at once, and this is why death is the easiest way to enlightenment, especially for those who's denial reaches the heavens. In death, we are severed from our present five digit trap permanently.

I know my words are pretty strong, but I'm in no way attacking anyone. I'm merely putting my argument into the mix of discussion. Argument that is without any negative connotations.

Cheers!

I dunno , lol. This stuff ties my brain in knots!..but I guess my point is that all I can really truely believe in is creation itself..or expression. Creating meaning is a form of creation..expressing you're creations..er, or..creating you're expressions. Creation just seems to flow through everything, in all directions..never ending..forever and ever and ever..

Definately lots and lots of knots I see what you mean creation seems to flow through everything, but I dont see it as creation, I see it as a random manifestation of energy. I tend to think of creation going hand in hand with a 'god' or a creator. I dont believe in that theory at all.... and I dont think an underlying energy present in all of us should be considered god. Gets into that whole language breaking down thing... But what manifested this energy that manfisted all we know? good question lonewolf123!

transpermia doesn't really answer the question because then where did the life that traveled interstellar space come from?

RNA that can replicate has been made. Its not that complex really (compared to DNA replication for example).

http://www.sciencemag.or...t/abstract/292/5520/1319



I should say that creationists tend to quote scientists who come up with analogies to dazzle people.

Nucleic acids (the building blocks of RNA and DNA) and amino acids (the building blocks of proteins) can form from very simple building blocks like methane ammonia etc. The stuff that was all over the early atmosphere. They can even form in extreme cold. There could have been other conditions on early earth that could have help catalyze the reactions needed to link these building blocks together. This could have been happening frequently and perhaps many times it was capable of self replication but it always died out and then one finally made it and kept going.

I am not interested in the statistics but demonstrating that its possible. Experiments are under way to do this. Its not so easy because it could have taken a long time and replicating the conditions on early earth isn't so simple either we can't know everything that was going on in the early earth.



The only me that I can think of without my ego is the me that I was when I was first born. Its a refreshing experience turning off the ego but to live my life without it would be so empty.

I can see aspects of my ego or the egos of others that are destructive but overall the ego is what fills our thoughts and awareness of our selves our memories etc.



Why is an ego a fallacy? The ego wants to survive because we evolved to want to survive. Its not easy for us to let ourselves die. Its a scary thought. Its almost an impossible thought to imagine a world without YOU.



Its a beautiful and refreshing experience. It cleans the mind in an amazing way. But I think its dangerous to equate the experience of ego death with real death. In real death there may not be any rebirth there may not be any bliss because there wont be anything anymore.



But how can that meaning be absolute if its human beings that are defining that meaning? It only can be so if something sets the meaning. Who sets the meaning then?



SWIM originally used entheogens for spiritual reasons after SWIM had left his religious up bringing. Also for recreational and psychological reasons. Now SWIM uses for scientific, psychological, and recreational reasons. The psychedelic experience is no less interesting if you take out the magical spiritual notions. SWIM finds it far more interesting and can learn more from it now.



Psychedelics can help an individual find meaning in their lives. But that does not mean that something like a god or spirit is giving that individual a meaning for life via the psychedelic experience. You can't make such a claim with certainty just because you think that's what you experience on a psychedelic journey.

For SWIM personally psychedelics helped SWIM learn what SWIM wanted to do with SWIMs life. They helped SWIM learn the importance of SWIMs friends and family inspiring SWIM to live and raise a family of SWIMs own. SWIM owes a lot to those experiences not to some spirit that defined out SWIMs life while SWIM was high.

This kind of information and these realizations come from the self they do not come from above. They don't apply to everyone universally because people are different, they have difference goals different values. That to me is far more beautiful meaningful personal and touching then messages from above.

Please don't equate with what I say as a meaningless void. I found beauty in life and in the world. I just don't need a god or spirit to see it. A meaningless void is beautiful thing to emerge and be born into because we as humans with our self awareness can paint meaning across it using the colors of our egos.



There are also communists who don't have any respect for individual rights. Equating atheism with communist dictators is wrong. These people worship a political ideology that reduces the individual to a gear in a machine.




Yes it was envisioned by those who had doubt that a god or magical spirits were running the universe. This has freed us from the chains of the priest classes of history. At least some of us.



Haha. I don't hope to encounter anything. I just said that if someone could prove it I wouldn't have a problem with it. Someone like Dawkins would say the same. If someone could prove a god was necessary then ok show us the evidence. Thats all I am saying about that.



You are missing some major points. Energy is matter. E = MC squared is energy equals mass times to the speed of light squared. There are forms of matter that have no mass. The photon is an example of a massless particle. Don't make the mistake of assuming that matter must have mass.

Your claim that matter is energy in thought form has no basis. The religions are not right that an unseen spiritual realm creates this meaningless physical realm. And no quantum mechanics does not say that this must be so. Quantum mechanics shatters that belief. Quantum mechanics shows that subatomic events can happen utterly without cause thus so can our universe.



Equating death with enlightnment is the kind of nonsense priests use to lead suicide missions. I know thats not the buddhist view of it but it certainly is in other religions.

There is no evidence for your spirit I am sorry. The most liberating thought I ever had was accepting that.

a small comment about ego:

I consider ego like finger nails.. they are good and have their function, but if left by themselves they will grow and grow in an unbalanced way, so we must trim it once in a while. Small fingernails are flexible and strong, long finger nails are hard to clean, can break easily and might even 'endanger' us

Quite a peculiar comparisson, but i get what you mean.

well said.

Interesting, so then do you agree or disagree with 1992 that the psychedelic experience is nothing but meaningless artifacts that are pure fantasy? I agree that something does not need to be real or have meaning to be beautiful, but it would seem no better than believing in God in your case to receive council on such incredibly important personal issues from something that is pure fantasy in your reality.



The Communist ideology is based on an atheist worldview, not a theist, monotheist or polytheist worldview. NO ONE has intrinsic human rights in an atheists world because good, and evil do not exist in nature. Morals are reduced to the delusions of a species with large brains. Murder is merely the means to eliminate a threat (real or imagined), Rape is merely a means to the only biological goal of life, Stealing is merely a means to survive as well. I could go on and on.



I've read many times what the equation means. I was putting emphasis on my own take on it. My claim is that of my perspective, and it is a logical theory that conceptually connects different philosophical lines of thought. Philosophy is in a higher domain than Physics IMHO.

I'm not surprised that you glossed over the main point of my post which was to show that materialism is a medieval perception of reality. An atom is 99.999% nothing physically. How does it feel, Burnt, to see that which is not there? You are staring at all of the evidence you need to prove that everything is in fact spiritual by definition, and that the physical solidarity of this Earth trip we're on right now is but an illusion, a terribly beautiful one no less.



What I mean by enlightenment is that only in death are we permanently separated from our 5 senses and so fully experience the reality of what is on the other side. Not even you can deny that this is true. In your case you believe you will cease to exist, which by the way IS the Buddhist view of enlightenment. The whole point of Buddhism is to escape what they think is a vicious, infinite cycle of reincarnate suffering. Nirvana equates to transcending the eternal cycle of life (suffering) permanently which means that you as a life form cease to exist.

In response to discipleofspice, I just go for recreation at this point. Mescaline and LSD are nice and mellow

I found this statement interesting, as that is exactly what scientific materialism does as well.




This is preposterous. You claim knowledge you cannot possibly know. My admittedly limited understanding of quantum physics does not indicate this at all. Everything has a cause. Our entire understanding of reality indicates there can be no effect without a cause. Just becasue we cannot currently measure/understand/conceptualize a cause does not mean it does not exist.

I would say that these are indeed the sort of mysteries that ought to sparkle one's imagination.

But this doesn't mean that indeed there is something higher.
It's very tempting to think there is. But we just can't know.

I would therefore not look at the material world and therefore materialism, as something inferiour or soulles. And i would certainly not assume that spirituality is by definiation opposed to scientific materialism.

If there is a spiritual dimension, then our material world must be a part of it. Thinking of a platonic world of pure spiritual concepts or ideas can easily lead to disdain towards the only thing we are shure of, wich is this material world and therefore everything in it wich at some point includes ourselves.
If we cut ourselves of from this world then we cut ourselves of from ourselves. and 'ourselves' is the only connection to spiritual awareness we have.

It could be that this world is somehow connected to or part of something higher. The ridles of quantummechanics only inspire more to feel this way. But at the same time it could be just a feeling.
Look at fractals: they have the shape of infinity, but in the real world there cannot be infinity like expressed by fractals. The same could be true for our spiritual notions: Our world, including ourselves could have the shape of infinity, without there being the sort of infinity as expressed. It could be just a concept.

No and this is why Einstein couldn't stand the entire idea. He went to great lengths to show there was deterministic. He failed. Everyone has failed.

Quantum events are indeterministic.

Sorry I dunno if cause was the right word or if determinism is better. I think determinism is better.



There is a difference. Science doesn't tell the machine how to function how to think how to act. Communism does that. Communism goes against human nature. Humans want to think and feel and live for themselves and even the people around them. Communism crushes what makes us human. Our individuality. Science doesn't say anything about what an individual should or shouldn't do. Thats up to us to decide.



Its not pure fantasy. But I do'nt think the beings one encounters or the interpretations of what happens are always real or correct.



I am an atheist and I have stronger morals then most religious people I know. You don't need god to set for yourself whats right and wrong. Your argument is an old rehashed statement used by religious and spiritual people to attempt to show that there can be no morality in atheism. Its not true.



I know what an atom is. You appaerently don't understand how this mostly 'empty' object can cause physical reality.

YOu also don't understand that empty space is not so empty. Look it up. It will blow your mind if you actually think that what you said above has any truth.

This nobel prize winning researcher explains it better then I would:

http://mitworld.mit.edu/video/618

Yes it does actually, it's called the public school system. Also, do you think mass media and Hollywood are directed by a bunch of dumb-asses? No, they play all of the pyschological tricks which they have learned from professional psychologists. It appears you haven't been fully uneducated on this matter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays
This is one of the best documentaries you will ever watch:
http://video.google.com/...cid=8953172273825999151#



Interesting, then you do disagree with 1992...I should have ignored your first response to him. So you're an atheistic materialist who believes in metaphysical beings? *scratches head*



I never said all atheists are immoral or all atheists don't believe in morality. I personally know atheists who are relatively moral, and have been acquainted with many in the past. What I did state is a very old argument that has stood the test of time because it is true, and you did a good job dodging this argument. Human morality does not exist in Nature. Refute it if you can. My point is atheists like yourself believe in something that is not manifest in Nature, and so go against the materialism you so cherish.



Yes, I do understand how an empty object can become physical. Empty space IS empty physically speaking meaning it is NOT filled with any element on the periodic table. It is immaterial even if you call it the theoretical black matter because it is the polar opposite of regular matter.


Keep knocking the game ajar then, my friend. It's obviously giving you some meaningful benefits even if you believe that it's all a farce.

I think you are very right that the public school system has been and is still used in some ways as a tool for brainwashing. I agree.

But its not science dictating how people should act. Its moralists, politicians, religious leaders, and yes in some cases scientists. But it is not and cannot really be a goal of science to tell an individual how to live ones life. Science can advice but it can't say what is right and wrong in that sense for all people. That at the end of the day should always be left to the individual. Perhaps many scientists wouldn't even agree with that statement.

I guess I am more of a libertarian atheistic materialist



No no I don't believe they are real. I just can't say we have proven that they are not real yet because it hasn't been investigated enough. I definitely think there is enough evidence to say they are most likely not real though.



I agree. There is no absolute morality. I am moral in my own way. Some people may think my morals are horrible. I don't care. They have their morals. I think human beings have to and often do so unconsciously come to some kind of an agreement about what is right and wrong in their society. This is the origin of laws. Laws never came from god they came from man.





How do you define immaterial? Would a photon which is a massless particle be immaterial? If its immaterial why does it follow certain laws and rules? If a photon is material then so are other subatomic particles. Its matter. Black matter is not the opposite of matter. We have a name for that stuff its called anti matter. But anti matter is the polar opposite to regular matter in the sense that a positively charged particle is the opposite of a negatively charged one except we are talking about other properties not electric charges. Its still matter. Its just called anti matter because its opposite to what we thought all regular matter was. Dark matter is just matter that does not interact with light. Its therefore dark. We only know it exists because of its gravitational force on regular matter.

But do you see the point here? All things are matter they are just different types of matter. We know they exist because they interact with matter. If the spirit world is real and has an effect on normal matter (us) then we can find it and observe it. So far there has been no discovery of spirit matter. If you find it you will win a nobel prize

I don't think it exists because its apparently so important according to spiritual people that it must be somewhere. When we look we find the usual kinds of explanations for things.

Your right that empty space is not made up of the elements on the periodic table. But that does not mean its empty. By the way there is very low concentrations of elements in deep space.

In the theory of quantum chromodynamics empty space may not be so empty. Here is what empty space looks like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxlOMa6pdr4

I agree with you. I by no means am saying there is proof of a spiritual dimension. My own personal belief is that they are two sides of the same coin. That they both coexist, and the material world we percieve is just a lower vibration of energy such that it forms solid objects. But there are higher vibrations/frequiencies of energy of which we cannot percieve in normal consensus reality, and these higher dimensions/frequencies compose the spiritual aspect of existence. They are both the same thing, just in different forms. The universe is highly organized and ordered, but in our three dimensional world we are unable to percieve the higher orders of existence. Consciousness has the ability to percieve these higher orders. It is not restricted to just this material perspective.

I do not have disdain for materialism, I agree with many of its tennents as it offers an excellent explanation for the nature of the reality we experience. I am just arguing that it cannot, and does not explain the entire richness of the existence we percieve. My arguments are based on the premise that we CANNOT KNOW for sure one way or the other, while others agrue that it is a certain way, it is the only way, and anyone who doesn't believe that is delusional. When people talk in absolutes, when there is no possible way they can know for sure their position is correct, I take issue with it, as logically and evidentially it is an unsupportable position.

Interesting you mention fractals...

Cells go fractal
Mathematical patterns rule the behaviour of molecules in the nucleus.
http://www.nature.com/ne.../full/news.2009.880.html