1. Can the difference between ayahuasca and pharmahuasca - supposedly pharma is less teaching, guiding, or "grounding" (whatever that means) - be offset by simply increasing the dose of extracted harmalas?

2. For those who do pharma with caapi alkaloids, do you notice many differences between using a full caapi brew and using a high dose of extracted caapi alkaloids? If so, which ones?

3. For those who do pharma with rue alkaloids, do you notice many differences between using a full rue brew and using a high dose of extracted rue alkaloids? If so, which ones?

4. Caapi is expensive and thus people don't often use much at a time, Rue in high doses I hear is not healthy and/or contains unsafe levels of toxic compounds (vasicine)......Would taking a high dose of purified Rue harmalas be a good middle ground? Harmalas do have strong effects, right? Would a dose of purified Rue harmalas so large that an unpurified equivalent in Rue would be dangerous, be a reasonable way to go?

On another note, why do people use so few caapi harmalas when doing pharma with caapi extract....If 50g of caapi contains about a gram of alkaloids, why do people often use under 400mg caapi alkaloids per dose.....could this be why the experience is often seen as lacking?

Hello, I think you're too paranoid about rue being toxic. You're not pregnant aren't you?

I am not, but when I dose any more than 3-3.5g I start getting red facial skin, headaches, and feelings of high blood pressure or vasoconstriction.....I would like to be able to explore the effects of high Harmala dosages (or approximate the so-called "jungle brew" effects) without the physical discomfort that rue tends to cause me.

Just guessing: are you sure it is not serotonin syndrome? Some people are very tyramine sensitive when it comes to that, very seldom by my knowledge but it can happen. I've read of at least one person who must avoid ALL tyramines 2 days before and 2 days after.

I regularly eat high tyramine foods before and after 2g rue doses to no ill effect....

I don't see why it is surprising......most people I have read about feel far more physically uncomfortable on high doses of rue than on high doses of vine......is this the first time you've heard about this?

Yes, it is the first time I read these effects
when serotonin syndrome has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Good luck to you.

They don't happen to any worrying extent, I just feel like if I up the raw rue dosage, they might.....It's nothing more than barely noticeable for the time being....

I've only had about 4 vine experiences and about 30 or more with rue......so it hasn't been a huge issue but I wouldn't want these problems to manifest to any extent since I'm looking to get into higher Harmala ranges....

All undesirable side-effects of Rue seed/extract goes away as the reverse tolerance builds up. I was taking strong/heavy Rue dosages daily for 5 months, it got to a point where it felt so clean on the body, no nausea/vomiting/diarrhea, body load cleaned up fine, got pretty high up on the dosage (enough to cause some tremoring, which told me i needed to back the dosage down a bit).

Also Rue isn't toxic. And Rue doesn't cause vasoconstriction, it causes vasodilation, which can cause a bit of low blood pressure and a headache. Dunno why you're getting red facial skin though unless it's like a flushing or something. There's definitely not any Tyramine issues with Rue, and SS wouldn't happen with just the Rue.

What about mixing both Rue and Caapi? I hear it's great.

As for raw vs extract. I dunno about Caapi. But with Rue, i can tell a difference between ingesting the ground seed in capsules and ingesting the full spectrum extract or purified Harmala extract in capsules. The ground seed feels more raw, fuller, which i actually kinda like. The extract feels a bit lighter/cleaner but is closer to raw Rue than purified Harmalas are, which purified Harmala extract feels quite clean but doesn't feel much like the Rue.

I hear mixed opinions on this.....I will be soon making a vine brew and a rue extract, so I should have the chance to try the combination soon.



So let's say a rue tea feels different than the equivalent amount of purified harmalas.

What would a dose of purified harmlas much larger than the rue dose feel like in comparison, in your experience?

I'm not sure if my question makes sense in the way of phrasing.....it seems to me you're describing rue purified alkaloids as "rue lite", so I'm wondering what if one just takes more of these purified alkaloids? How does a full maoi dose of rue compare to say taking twice the amount of extracted rue alkaloids needed to inhibit mao.......like 3-4g of rue vs 6-8 grams of rue worth of extracted alkaloids.........

The only thing i've noticed from higher Rue or Harmala dosages is more sedation/relaxation and body load, but other than that it doesn't seem much different than usual/common dosages, ime. When using purified Harmalas, it just feels like Harmaline and some Harmine. There are some differences between Rue seed/extract and purified Harmalas, i think i much prefer the Rue over the purified Harmalas.

As for mixing Caapi and Rue, there are those that prefer one or the other, but if combining them, it's best to find the right dosage for each so that they synergize with each other rather than one overpowering the other, find a more balanced dosage between the two. Combining the two is a cool idea because the Caapi will add more Harmine and THH to Rue's Harmaline and Harmine.

1. When you refer to pharmayuasca or ayahuasca what you are refering to is the ratio of harmala/harmaline/THH. If you extracted each varient of those and dosed independantly you would feel the difference, this is achieved via varying PH levels in the basification stage. You will find that the more you have of either one the more tired and stuporous you will become. I have found from searching on here mixed reports about personal preference over which one feels more less teaching, guiding, or "grounding". Some prefer rue, some caapi.

2. That makes no sense, you can't have pharma with caapi alkaloids, that would make ayahuasca. caapi=aya / rue=pharma. You really have to distinguish here that there is no other component to either a brew or an concentrated extract, it is the SAME compound... Harmala/Harmaline/THH

3. The same as number 2

4. Once again you really have to distinguish here that there is no other component to either a rue brew or a concentrated extract, it is the SAME compound... So the middle ground would be taking harmala alkaloid in any format. If you are thinking of taking high doses of rue like 500mg+ then you would want to think of extracting it, even if you dont want high doses you want to exract it... nobody like vascine, especially not pregnant women lol.

Side note: I have never heard of people taking 400g of caapi... perhaps you are thinking of a brew that is divided amongst 5 people. That high a dose would send someone to sleep before having an absolute vomiting fit

From my understanding, Pharmahuasca is using Harmala alkaloids extracted from both Rue or Caapi. But Pharmahuasca also applies to using something like Moclobemide instead of the Harmalas.

Using ground Rue seed in capsules, or Rue seed tea, it may not be Caapi, but the Aya aspect is there ime, which btw Aya means Spirit, Huasca means vine.

Perhaps fresh (water holding) wood. That weight should be divided by 3 to 4 to come to the dry wood weight.

Oh yes, good point. Just like fresh & dry mushrooms.

No, as I pointed out in the post above... Pharmahuasca= Rue or pharmaceutical MAOI like moclobemide / Ayahuasca= Caapi

These are just the terms people use on the forums. They are just meant to talk about where the alkaloids came from either caapi or rue. The compound is the same, Harmala, Harmaline, THH albeit in varying levels of potency.

There is no Aya aspect in rue seeds. There is pharma aspect. Likewise, there is no pharma aspect in caapi, there is only caapi aspect. They have the same compounds in BOTH planet materials.

These are definitions of words you are talking about here.

You use words in English to describe things like how apple refers to that green fruit on the table and not the orange fruit called an orange.

What you are trying to do is like saying that an apple definitely has orange aspect to it. Yes, it is round but it is not an orange... it is an apple.

Caapi is Caapi, Rue is Rue. Ayahuasca is Ayahuasca, Pharmahuasca is Pharmahuasca.

"There is no Aya aspect in rue seeds. There is pharma aspect."

Incorrect. Rue does indeed have an Aya aspect, if you don't know this, you either haven't taken it enough or you haven't taken a high enough dosage. Secondly, while it has a medicinal aspect, there is no "pharma" aspect unless you use purified Harmalas over Rue extract or Rue seed, ime. I've taken Rue quite alot, probably worked with it more than most people have, imo.

And yes, Aya means Spirit and does not necessarily belong to the Caapi plant. Rue does indeed have very similar uses/potential as Caapi.

Many people refer to oral dmt activated with extracted caapi alkaloids as pharma......it's not ayahuasca because caapi contains over 9 different betacarbolines....it isn't just harmine, THH, and harmaline......so not it is NOT the same compound.



Can't be the same as number 2....it's a different question. Rue contains vasicine and other undesirable products.....and most people say that extracted rue harmalas feel different than a full rue brew, so how can a high dose of extracted harmalas feel the same as a medium dose rue brew....that would be counterintuitive.



Is that not a contradiction? Saying it's the same compound and so it feels no different but then going on to state that it's better to extract if using high doses because of the vasicine?



I meant under 400mg of caapi alkaloids........I was wondering why if 50g of vine contain like a gram of alks, why do people take only like 300mg or so of extracted caapi alklaoids per dose.......

We get that we're talking about definitions.

I just don't believe you have the right definition in mind.......

Caapi contains more than harmine/THH/harmaline, so saying that those three alone in the caapi ratio is ayahuasca, is just as valid as saying that if one eliminates the THH with another extraction and leaves just the harmine/harmaline in the caapi ratio it's still ayahuasca. Or if someone left only the harmine in the amount found in the vine, then it's still ayahuasca......."it still came from the vine so it's aya"....yeah no.

Or fresh vs dry anything

So if you are answering ALL of your own questions, why ask them in the first place?

All of the answers could have been got by a few simple searches on the site.

Just to clarify. You asked questions, someone (me) responded, you didn't agree so you denied that it was true and provided what the answer was... thereby defeating the point of your own thread.



You have also disregarded the fact that people (me) come on to these forums out of their own free will and in their own free time to respond to questions. You can at least say thank you for the responses of which provided you some information (your other threads which you presumably created whilst knowing the answer to already) rather than DEFENDING every single point you don't agree with and not acknowledging the ones you do agree with.