TheNtt, I definitely see your point of view, and totally agree with your points for the most part... but the thing about this responsbility for your own actions thing is something I disagree with in this case... first of all, as 69ron said, a lot of people say weed is fine, weed is great and the real potential dangers are actually not said enough... then there is the other aspect of responsibility, this particular drug works in an extremely slow subtle way, it also robs you of your responsibility to some extent, that's why I'm agreeing it's dangerous... it's a sneaky drug, I'm a responsible person, I've been able to pull back from many different substances and have had several addictions, but you see, those had noticeable side effects, really stand-out effects, it doesn't take long to realise why heroin and coke sucks... it takes maybe 1-20 years b4 you realise weed got you. I bet tea and coffee is similar... I have to quit caffeine just to see what it's like!... first things first

I don't think all dope users are idiots or anything, but I don't think they realise they've made a lifestyle choice that will stick with them until they stop... they may think they have a choice over which lifestyle they're leading, when in fact they don't... I'm just trying to be honest with myself here.

This is my last post in this thread because the subject makes me depressed. It reminds me of when SWIM was seriously addicted to cannabis and on the verge of ruining his life. I don't want to be reminded of that again. SWIM still has family members who are seriously addicted to it and it makes him sick. He can see the damage it’s caused.

As a closing statement, I do believe it is possible in some cases for cannabis to be helpful, especially if done only occasionally (once a month or so), or when it’s needed for a real medical condition. (I know most people using it for “medical purposes” are not really sick, they just got a doctor to write them up a prescription to get high. I think we all know this).

When used once a month it has some beneficial psychedelic potential. It’s the daily usage that’s damaging and most users end up getting into that category of use. SWIM has not known people to smoke it occasionally except people who don’t actually like it who just use it socially like alcohol. All the people SWIM knows who use it who like it, use it all the time, whenever they can. If they don’t have money for it, they will call all of their friends to find a friend who has it.

Should it be illegal? I don’t know about that. It’s not as harmful as alcohol is. Many alcoholics suffer very serious problems far worse that cannabis addicts. I’ve seen at least three alcoholics die of liver damage in my life. When put up against alcohol, cannabis doesn’t look so bad.

I don’t think banning something that’s addictive is a solution to the problem. Cannabis is already illegal in many places and yet people still use it. Addictive substances like cannabis can’t easily be controlled. I think selling it legally is a better choice. Same as alcohol. Banning it just makes matters worse.

If a person doesn’t mind living their life in a cannabis fog, that’s fine. It’s your choice. If you know the detrimental effects it has on the mind, and you know how addictive it can be for some people, and you still choose to use it, that’s your business, no one else’s. It’s certainly not as bad as alcohol is. SWIM doesn’t like alcohol either, and it’s for the same reason he doesn’t like cannabis. Both have detrimental stupefying effects on the mind.

Please don’t address any future posts to me in this thread. I’m not even going to look at it again. It’s too upsetting to me.

Cannabis is seriously addictive. This is a scientific fact. It also turns most frequent users into zombies.

I have been such a hooked zombie for some time myself as well, until i decided to quit with the stuff.
I haven't touched the stuff for more then 2 years now.

Still i must say that if you don't use it regularly, it can be a very valuable psychedelic. I have had some genuinly deep experiences with large amounts of oral cannabis.

The reason i don't do that stuff anymore is because i find ayahuasca and shrooms more valuable. But besides being an addictive debilitating drug, i find it can also be an important psychedelic.

If you would use it only 3 to 4 times a year, you can have profound psychedelic experiences with it, without harming yourself.

I must be a zombie :]
Feels great.
(Dont eat the Puffer Fish!)

You can smoke weed everyday for decades and not have any serious health consequences. By serious I mean permanent brain damage. Marijuana does cloud up the mind and the memory but its reversable it can also contribute to a depression and lack of motivation (for sure this is well known). The longer you smoke the longer it takes to get back to a clearer mind. Drugs like meth can cause serious nearly irreversable damage to your mind.

Equating cannabis with drugs like meth is absurd. Anyone who has seen or been through hardcore heroin or cocaine addiction knows the difference is obvious.

SWIM knows plenty of people who smoke cannabis occasionally and never have any problems with addiction. SWIM knows plenty of people who smoke every chance they get and are addicted. SWIM knows people who lie in between.

I think its quite biased to say that marijuana is all bad. Maybe those of you who got into addictions and clouds don't realize how much marijuana helps other people. Marijuana is a medicine for thousands of people across the world. Yes there are plenty of people who say they have some medical condition so they can get weed easier but who can judge them? If marijuana honestly helps you with headaches and makes you feel better who is to judge you and say that its wrong for you to smoke it? Nobody.

People can benefit from marijuana in much the same ways of people can benefit from psychedelic drugs. Lets not forget the dangers of drugs like ayahuasca and lsd. They can drive people insane. They can make people seriously delusional. Just because it works well for you doesn't mean it works well for everybody. Some people prefer marijuana some prefer shrooms some prefer beer.

But to act all high and mighty because you only do psychedelics once every few weeks or so to get your spiritual fix (thats really what it is its a fix just like anything else, a much safer fix when compared to hard drugs but still you want something from these substances and you get it when you take them) but critisize people who smoke weed for similar purposes is hippocritical.

another intersting part of cannabis addiction is that after a while as people get older they respond differently to it. it makes them feel uneasy not relaxed and happy. this has to do with the bodies endogenous cannabinoid system and how it changes from constant exposure to THC and similar drugs its really fascinating how the homeostatic regulatory function of the cannabinoid system in a way regulates its own addiction by making people feel unpleasant after much use. then most users stop and go back to normal.

does meth or cocaine work that way? no not at all and it has to do with the way they hit the brain. they are just take me and you get pleasure always more more more more hit hit hit hit. addiction is interesting from a neurochemical point of view. sorry i am rambling.

The effects cannabis has on the endocannabinoïd system is exactly what's responisble for it being seriously addictive. Like the endorphine system is your own private opiate system that protects you from to much pain, the endocannabinoid system is a natural protection against stress. This is probably also responsible for the neuroprotective properties, cannabis, according to some scientists has.

So when you spoil the endocannabinoid system, your nervous system will react when you suddenly quit using the stuff. It will show increased symptoms of exactly that wich is normally getting depressed by the oevrload of cannabinoids.

I find it important to state that cannabis has two sides. A very positive side and a very negative side.

You can not seriously compare cannabis with methamfetamine, but the stories that it's less harmfull then smoking cigarettes are also bullshit; if you smoke cannabis on a daily basis, depending on how much you smoke, you probably polute your lungs more severely then with just nicotine.

It can be a very valuable psychedelic, but also very addictive and numbing.
Besides that; some individuals are more sensitive to it's darker side. When i smoke a joint i am no longer able to have a meaningfull converstation myself, while many other people appear to be almost immune to this numbing effect. Yet others eventually end up in psychatric clinic's, wich also happens. Frequent cannabis use, more then doubles the risk of shizofrenia and other types of psychotic disorders.

I think the true story of cannabis isn't as one-sided as the ones who love it and the ones who hate it often picture it.

It's no killer drug, it's an interesting psychedelic and it has many valuable medicinal properties, but it's not the tame animal the hippies thought it was. With too frequent use you have a great chance of reaching the opposite of what you want, and then it's no longer an enrichment of your life, but the exact opposite of enrichment; a burden.

Remember, no thing is positive or negative, it's just a perception, a way you allow yourself to perceive.

^^very true.



just nicotine or tobacco? this is actually a tough question. there has never been found a link between smoking cannabis and lung cancer and they have looked (govt wants to find such a link). but cannabis does damage the lungs it just doesn't seem to cause cancer (probably because cannabinoids can kill cancer cells). i think if you take a couple hits of cannabis a day (with strong weed thats all you need) and compare it with tobacco smoker who smokes few ciggs a day they are certainly going to be worse off in terms of lung capacity. but that depends how people smoke, most people you know probably mix with tobacco and weed which is the most damaging.



endocannabinoid system has much cross talk with dopamine system which seems to be responsible for the reward / want more behavior. physical withdrawl is mild compared to opiates. very mild.



the link between cannabis use an mental illness is very vaugue. ive looked into this before. they really have not much going for such a link.

but anyway how much do you think the numbing effects has to do with the strength of cannabis. the cannabis you are smoking is most likely very potent and SWIM personally doesn't like such strong high THC weed. its out of balance somehow.

Yes burnt got it pretty much right.. Cannabis damage to lung seems to be qualitatively different than damage by tobacco. Take for example the work of Donald Tashkin

He WANTED to find damage by weed smoke but couldnt.. Or rather, he found damage but it seemed more superficial, to not cause cancer, even prevent it. The cannabinoids have been shown to signal the process of apoptosis, which is like the 'suicide' of the cell (in this case cancer cells), helping in preventing cancer. I also remember reading (but dont know source so dont take my word for it) that the tobacco smoke makes more damage on the alveoli, which is where the passage of the gases happen in the lungs, while pure weed smoke accumulates/damages more supperficially in the upper trackts of the lungs, making it way less dangerous.

Of course, this is for people using weed only, no tobacco.. If we talk about vaporizing then, its even safer.

The other thing, as for abstinence syndrome and so on, and burnt may clear this for us if Im correct: IIRC, one of the reasons why that abstinence syndrome is more rare than expected is because being liposoluble, thc metabolites are released in the blood stream gradually, 'tricking' the body by not letting it realize it is completely without the substance (unlike more quickly metabolized and excreted substances such as opiates, which the body will realize the 'shock' of suddenly not having it).

I think that the biggest danger of marijuana is apathy/lack of energy, or as ron very cutely said, being a zombie This happens quite commonly with regular use, specially those that smoke during the day. Two things to notice is:

1- Each person decides whether this is good or bad for them. For some people they may want to be more quiet, enjoying life, being spaced out and creative (like artists for example), while for others this may set them back and make them enjoy life less, lose opportunities, become nearly anti-social. There is no generalization possible, one must look case by case.

2- Apathy can be diminished/controlled by certain changes in how often, when and where one consumes. For example SWIM usually smokes only at night after having done his daily duties.. Then its no problem, he can look back with clear conscience at his day and relax and be in that smokey hedonic world without worrying he is losing on life.

Also taking a long break of at least a month once in a while for regular users (of any drug or of any habbit, even) is very recommended because it helps one get perspective in previous habits, realizing more if it needs changes or if it was fine, letting the body regenerate a little and so on..

^^good points endlessness..

Even Mckenna said that he wished he could get a better handle on his cannabis use..he stressed that the best way was probabily once a week..and I agree.

I love cannabis, I dont regret anything. It was my fault that I chose to smoke every day on the hour!..It's a lover/hate thing..I hate the social addicition to it that I had and so many other people in my life have. I feel that as long as I do not smoke socially than people will realise that and than I can just smoke once a week or once a month at night and be fine with that..

It's the constant social aspect of it that really drags me in..and than I absolutily HATE that feeling.

BTW..I did experience withdrawl symptoms that started on the 3rd day away from it...I felt completely disphoric, and anxiety ridden, shaky and uncomfortable...drinking lots of cocoa and rhodiola helped with that though..only lasted 2 days. I smoke a small hit about 4 days ago like I sadi somewhere above..just some leaf hash and those withdrawl symptoms did not come back. I feel much healthier now, and my dreams are more amazing than ever.

True about cannabis metabolites persisting. Also constant exposure could (i think its been shown too as well at least in animals) change expression levels of various enzymes and receptors involved in the bodies endogenous cannabinoid system. I think these changes can persist for a bit of time. I'd have to find ref's to back that up but I am pretty sure its been looked into.

Yes, it's true; here in europe, most frequent cannabis smokers, smoke their stuff with tobacco in a joint. We can agree, that with a few of those every day, in time, your lungs are gonna contain more asphalt then the streets of tokyo and yokohama combined.

If you use it orally or simply vaporize it, this is all completely different ofcourse.

I know that cannabis has no physical withdrawal symptoms like opiates, but there are withdrawal symptoms. They just manifest mostly on the mental plain, so to speak. What i meant is that many people seem to think that whether you become addicted or not, is purely a matter of personality. This is not entirely true. Ofcourse some people are more sensitive to this then others, but addiction is also partly a mechanical proces that innevitably takes place when you start taking addictive substances for a certain period of time on a daily basis. Everybody can become addicted to cannabis.
The withdrawal symptoms will be mainly psychologic effects and different for each person, but everybody will have some effects. For some people it's insomnia, for others anxiety, for others it's nervousness or feeling irritated or angry.

I am fairly shure that there IS a relationship between cannabis use and mental illness. Scientific study's are never contradicting eachother on this. The only thing that's not entirely clear is how much greater the risk of mental illnes is exactly, verying between 2 and 5 times as great.

It's not a completely safe substance.

If used responsibly, it is a great psychedelic tough.

Oh yeah.. i think that the numbing effects do differ radically from person to person. I know people who can smoke an awfull lot of very strong weed and behave completely normal.
Maybe it has to do with mental strength and discipline. One guy i knew, who seemed almost immune, worked for the dutch military-police. Those are often quite disciplined sort of lads.

Just some helpful basic info, I suggest watching the other PWT vids aswell...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9luNVYlT_E

If you know how to vapo already, just skip to 3:00

Swim was thinking that being a daily pothead, (usually a nice bowl or two after work, not an all day thing) for about 10 years now, he doesn't really realize what its like to be totally sober and clear-minded. The fog ron mentions, isn't so noticeable when your never really out of the fog. Swim has noticed his memory is effected, also he rarely ever remembers his dreams. The longest he was sober was maybe 3 or 4 months when trying to get a new job. Any ides or suggestions on how to cut down, or stop? Its just too easy to smoke after work to let the tension dissipate thats been building all day.

My first breakthrough actually encouraged me to cut down and I know it has done the same for a few on this forum.... not saying that it would work for everyone, but im curious, have you smoked spice?

Swim has a hard time smoking spice due to asthma, but has taken some pharma journeys. Definitely put some things in perspective, but not enough to shatter this weed habit. Swims not sure if he even ever broke through before.

http://www.drugs-forum.c....php?p=659838#post659838

the link between cannabis and mental illness is still unsure.. Remember, positive relationship doesnt necessarily mean cause and effect.

but in any case, yes you're right cannabis is not completely safe, nothing is..

cannabis can certainly make a mental illness worse or precipitate it. but whether or not it IS the cause is very difficult to say at this point.

Yes, causality is a bit of hard to establish.
It could be that schizofrenics are more likely to smoke pot then sane people.
And it could also be that, when cannabis get's higher in THC, this tendency becomes greater.
Just as it could be that people with a genetic curse of lungcancer are more likely to smoke cigarettes (sarcastic mood, couldn't help saying this).
It's a matter of statistic's.