Being content helps me sleep and thats about all I can say on that. Sure, I feel pretty content after a deep breakthrough.. but it also leaves me feeling pretty excited about what i've just been witness to...like being a kid with a new toy. I probably don't want to hit the hay cos I too excited about this new toy I got (obviously in this case the toy is reflection)..

I'd advise strongly against using dmt at the breakthrough dose just with the intention of getting to sleep.. with smaller doses there may be a relaxed aftermath too but I'm still not sure sleeping should be the central intention for firing up any dose.. its perhaps a little disrespectful to the experience otherwise. best put the vial under your pillow and wait till another time.

Plenty of other allies better suited to the task

the eerily similar nature between the DMT flash and lucid dreaming makes me wonder why you would refer to a connection between the two as "patently false"

Because there's no evidence for DMT being involved in the genesis of dreaming experiences or the sleep-wake cycle at all. All that stuff about DMT being released when you dream/die/whatever is wild speculation at best, and pseudoscience at worst.

There may be phenomenological similarities between the DMT experience and some dreams, but that is correlational data at best. You wouldn't say that because there are phenomonolical similarities between the heroin high and the post-coital afterglow that opiates are involved in making babies, would you?

Blessings
~ND

I believe i've read somewhere that sexual activity actually DOES tend to trigger the release of endorphins.

But i think you're right about the DMT-dream connection. In the sense of there probably not being one, that is.

I think it's the fallacy to try to explain everything in terms of neurochemistry. There's so much more to the brain than just chemicals.
If any ripple in counsciousness that would bare some resemblence to the DMT-state, would require the release of endogenous DMT, then just thinking about DMT, or to recall or reminisce a DMT-experience would require DMT-release.

Well the few times I used it I slept like a god. I was dreaming each time. It really makes you sleep when you take it right at sundown and then sleep.

I can remember that research showed that taking too high a dose of melatonine was counterproductive for regular sleep. The best dose was pretty low at about 0.2mg I think, taken under the tongue about half an hour before sleep.

Also know that looking at blue light prevents the production of melatonine in the brain. So better not watch a screen (TV, computer, smartphone, tablet, etc) before you go to sleep.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

Not sure that's a great idea. Ache inhibitors have been linked to dementia numerous times. Bad habbit.

I've been struggling with insomnia. Chamomile tea and melatonin seem to do the trick. If absolutely necessary, a strong beer, a good read, and some cannabis ejuice will get me there.

Ymmv, 1ce

I could be in the wrong here but your example seems a far stretch to me.

I think a better example would be say, if someone tried dmt, then a high dose of psilocybin, and noted that the similarities of the effects/experience were so close there was probably a connection, that would not be a ridiculous hypothesis.

So far as I am aware, the Pineal Gland has been shown to secrete dmt naturally. I know this was a subject of debate and speculation for a long time but I also remember that recently a connection was objectively shown. I understand your hesitancy in this area but I hardly think looking for a connection between altered waking states and the dream state is a waste of time or a closed discussion as of yet.

edit: after double checking I found that there are several studies showing the existence of DMT in the Pineal Gland of rodents.

Existence of a substance in a certain part of the body does not mean it is produced in that part. DMT gets transferred in the blood all over the body, so having it also in the pineal gland should be no surprise just like it would be no surprise to find it in your pinky toe.

Be careful for confirmation bias!


Kind regards,

The Traveler

I appreciate the advice but I'm basing the direction of my opinion on the literature that shows DMT is also probably produced in the lungs and liver, as well as possibly elsewhere, combined with the "knowledge" of the Pineal glands existence (and alleged function) going back to societies that forbade dissection of a human corpse, therefore raising the question of how they even knew there was a part of the brain there.*

In essence, what I take from the literature is that dmts production in the Pineal is highly probable, although I accept it has not been actually shown producing it. Part of that of course is how fast the body breaks down the substance and the rest of the gray area I attribute to lack of research.

*my personal theory is echoes of medical(and other) knowledge handed down from the Mother society that fractured during the Younger Dryas and was eventually obscured via the sands of time and purposeful misinformation enforced by ruling authoritarian institutions.

That is just silly. In the past many things were 'known' that were in the end not what people thought at that time.

Using this to make a point about something that has nog been proven is just looking for scraps to pretend something is a fact while it is not.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

I always find it amusing when people simply dismiss cultures that were capable of manipulating, cutting, stacking and transporting stone blocks weighing 80 tons as being nearly absurdly primitive.

Trav not a fan of Graham Hancock and Randall Carlson I take it?

Yes many things in the recent past (the last few thousand years) that were taken as true have been shown to be false. What I am talking about with the "Mother" culture is so called "deep" history, with the dividing line being the Younger dryas period (9000 or so BC to about 12000 B.C.)

You shouldn't just believe what's said in those sumerian clay-tablets about extra-terrestial DMT-stuff. Take the nubians for instance. They clearly say in THEIR tablets:"don't listen to those fucking sumerians, they're full of shit". And the egyptian tablets say:"normally we think those nubian people are asses, but when it comes to what they say about the sumerian shit...we're with the nubians". And what about Swiss clay-tablets from the very ancient bradibrimbu civilisation that say:"Those sumerians are just joking man, don't listen to those clowns".

Wich brings me to the subject of clowns. So the terror-clowns now have made it across the atlantic and are now starting to harras the people over here in europe. So today, finally, some 14 year old boy stood-up to them and kicked the shit out of one of those terror-clowns. So the big question is: what kind of a terror-clown are you when even a 14 year old kid can kick your ass? See? Maybe it's just me, but i don't call that a terror-clown.

So i say to those shitty clown-losers: you either just go back to the freaking circus where you belong, or you learn how to properly beat-up 14 year-olds...because this kind of stuff aint worth the name terror.

obviously I can't read any of those old tablets. I'm talking strictly about the massive structres and oral traditions handed down.

A culture capable of aligning a structure the size of the great pyramid to true north within a tenth of a degree had probably figured out a thing or two about the human body. I'm not even touching on the astronomical alignments or the clear knowledge of precession.

I'm actually affronted at the lack of appreciation for history amongst entheogen enthusiasts. How is it not required education around here to study cultures that immersed themselves as a culture into these substances and the states that provide?

nb4 I need to explain the water damage on the sphinx and what the timeline of humanity actually probably looks like. Short Google list for anyone interested:

Gobekli Tepe
John Anthony West
the Magical Egypt series on YouTube
every JRE with Hancock or Carlson
Gunang Padang
Easter Islands unreadable writing compared with the writing found in (I believe Megiddo) the middle east
the emperical reference points of "sacred" sites to other "sacred" sites

Thoth/Hermes/Hu and the Armillary Sphere

But this is a thread about dmt for sleep

Indeed.

I didn't mean to run things quite so off track.

but I believe (as does pretty much every culture I'm talking about) that there is a deep deep fundamental connection between "ordinary" reality, dreaming reality, the psychedelic state, the goal of all the cultures that took advantage of them and used them to guide their decisions at a societal level, and whatever awaits us when we finally pass the final bardo and the Ineffable Light that there awaits us.

That's what I was struggling to get at.

edit: on topic of the thread

it has been found that a sub breakthrough level experience (or even a high level experience by someone skilled in navigating the come down) does not make falling asleep difficult at all. One has induced enjoyable naps with light music in the sun and even in fact prefers to "fully launch" in the same manner as they would when going to sleep. That is, in their own bed, in the dark, alone or with a real lover.

There are also cacti that contain mescaline does that mean we contain it too?
A lab rat is not a human. They work as an organism but arent nearly as complicated as we are.

The DMT/Psilo analogy is flawed because in the case of both of them, you're dealing with exogenous drugs, with similar mechanisms of action and chemical structures. This contrasts with the heroin/sex analogy because in that case, only one of those is an exogenous molecule, while the other is a natural physiological process that, as far as we know, does not require said exogenous molecule.

The DMT/Sleep question I think maps much better to my analogy than yours. DMT is an exogenous compound, sleep is a natural physiological process.

It may be true that DMT is produced in the pineal gland (so far, I think we've only found it in rats, not humans, but correct me if I'm wrong), but just because it's there doesn't mean that it's doing anything in particular. Biochemistry is a messy proces, right now, I see no reason to believe that it's not just biological white noise caused by the natural, stochastic interactions between molecules and enzymes which, ordinarily, would serve a different purpose. I may be totally wrong, but I'm very hesitent to hypothesize a role for endogenous DMT w/out evidence.

Here's something else that just sprang to mind:

If DMT caused dreams, or was related to them, we would expect dreaming to be attenuated by the administration of an antipsychotic, right? The exact opposite happens - a lot of atypical antipsychotics actually cause more vivid dreams and put people who take them to sleep (that's why they're before-bedtime drugs). By inhibiting your bodies ability to respond to it's own endogenous DMT, you're actually triggering the responses you're claiming DMT induces. That doesn't make sense to me.

I think that there is an argument to be made for a relationship between the psychedelic state and dreamed experience, but this whole DMT thing is not it, not by a long shot. Look at some of the papers coming out of the Imperial College where they show that psychedelics produce an entropic state similar to that of REM sleep. That is interesting, robust research grounded in strong, scientific facts.

Problems develop when people start putting too much weight in one or two individual, phenomenological experiences, largely because we know so little about how experiences of consciousness map to brain function that any attempts to bridge that chasm require unreasonably large leaps of faith.

What literature would that be, exactly?

Blessings
~ND