Those snuffs are usually Bufotenine, with traces of 5 meo, and dmt. Not the same, different material, application, ritual. Sometimes used with Caapi vine chewed, according to a source i cannot be bothered to currently link...

I was gonna say about the snuff's, but that isn't the same sort of practice IMO, as using dmt, which IMV isn't suitable alone because of its overly brief and intense action, which can make it unworkable and just too screwed up for many people. I would avoid at all costs someone saying they could find it to be as healing as Ayahuasca is, for example.

The exit of this debacle is to not compare them in the first place.

I had not heard that McKenna quote you posted there gnosis, but I think that hits it on the head, right on.

And certainly there could be a dmt shaman, absolutely. As far as I know I don't know of any existing legit ones, but to say it's not possible is to ignore the fact that shamanism isn't just an art of the past but something that is continually evolving today. And now that something like changa exists I'm sure it could be incorporated into a shamanic practice

True. However there seems to be a definate 'link' in the way they are traditionally used together. Sure, Shamanism can involve many techniques and methods, i just think that DM alone isn't an intelligent choice. I think there is a reason why some started adding Caapi and making Changa???




Changa is changa because of those Alkaloids. There is a reason it was invented.... stop and think why.

Yeah I find changa to be much more in line with spiritual and shamanic experience than dmt alone. For sure

Some experiences are common across culture.

We all dream and wish for good dreams.
We all breathe and benefit from taking time to do so consciously.
We all need to stretch and move our bodies.
We all need plants for food and medicine.
We all gather around a warm fire on a cold night.
We all stargaze in wonder.
We all dance when the drum beats.
We all set intentions and pray for good fortunes.

The same sun and moon rise and set over all our heads each day. No culture/tribe/tradition/ owns the act of giving thanks for that.

So weave a dreamcatcher! Watch the breath! Push into downward facing dog! Drink the tea! Sing a song! Look up! Shake your hips! and always walk gently.

If you are living your own personal daily practice with sincerity, trust that you are honoring the traditions, for that's been their purpose all along.

Now to the actual topic. There is a certain responsibility inherent in being a keeper of the powerful transformative agents we refer to as psychedelics, particularly if you are initiating others into these experiences. In this manner, while you may or may not vibe with the nomenclature of the dirty shaman word, (which you will inevitably be deemed if you share the strange plants we discuss round here with other people), by sharing these substances you are accepting a certain level of responsibility from that other person. This relationship can take several roles: sitter, facilitator, guide, teacher, master/student, partner-in-crime, sadist/victim etc...

This is why it's important to be extremely cautious if you should choose to seek out a shaman (provider/facilitator/guide/), remain particularly wary of any self proclaimed sham-mans eager to sell you an experience. This is also why integrity and sincerity in your own person and practice is integral if you are planning on providing other people with these experiences. Examine your own motivations, are you a bit too eager to sell the experience yourself? Any good facilitator should always be clear in their intentions.

All that said, this forum is full of competent changaleros whom I would be honored to have at my side for the tuff puff.

And that's rather why this site is here in the first place now, innit?

yeah this has been my experience as well, and I certainly don't consider myself anything close to a shaman figure nor do I even use dmt at the frequency that would actually be required by that of a typical shaman, so I agree that it is a case of getting glimpse of a subject they aren't common to and putting it on a pedestal..

something like dmt breakthroughs I don't think requires any sort of shaman figure as they allow the participant to be their own shaman.. on high doses theres nothing the external observer can do to guide the journey other than shut the "f" up for a few mins while they're gone and then be there for them as a friend when they come out (and beforehand) if that is what they need

the plant is the teacher.. and a compound as immersive as dmt really takes the reigns on these journeys- I would say the figure that some people see as a dmt shaman is really just a friendly person who is happy to gift an experience that they too found helpful.

Yes but I could see where the need for a dmt shaman exists. It would be great if like with ayahuasca shamans can invoke Icaros and spirits to influence the direction of the experience. Don't know if it's possible or not but would be helpful in guiding experiences tword the positive and reducing chances of hyperslaps for sure.

When you smoke dmt you are putting yourself Ina vulnerable position and I think opening a doorway to the spirit realm but often with little knowledge of spiritual protection. So this is where a shaman with knowledge of spirits and protection comes in.

There is a difference too between shaman and facilitator, facilitator merely provides a safe context for the experience, but this doesn't make him her a shaman. Any of us with knowledge of dosage and responsible use could and probably have been facilitators at some point

Be cool to have a mechanical barbers chair with orientation settings akin to a telescope that aims your third eye at star systems while you smoalk.

Call it the shamans toilet.

That is true.. I guess it differs for everyone, but in my experience surrender is crucial with dmt and if I do that then I am in good hands from then on in. I feel that with a true breakthrough dose the initiate should perhaps be left to go through the experience themselves.. deep personal insight can come of the scary parts too... should we really be trying to cushion their experience? It seems one thing to be guiding something like ayahuasca where the participant is still somewhat grounded in the physical realm... but to be "guiding" something as inward and intimate as a dmt breakthrough I worry about a little.. I wonder if it could become imposing in some way... I certainly find silence and lack of sensory stimulation enough for the plant to do its work

I guess it beckons the question, are the "malevolent entities" freelance beings that take abode in the dmt realm? or are they manifestations of a person's internal atmosphere at the time? if the former, then yes I can totally see where it would be hugely beneficial to have a shaman figure present, if the latter then I dunno.. a part of me feels that they should face that and try to understand it

In my experience, feelings of malevolence during dmt journey's usually arise out of giving energy to thought and losing focus on the unfolding moment... but it wouldn't be right for me to say that is what everybody else is experiencing.. so..yeah... complex issue

I do not presume to tell people what they should or should not do, especially in the context of their own belief systems, but I think these things should be frankly discussed, especially given the historical context a lot of this takes place in.

Part of what I want to ask (and hopefully get people to explore) is this question of why we (and by we I mean comparatively privileged Westerners into recreational drug use) use symbols and structures from non-Western and Indigenous systems the way that we do. If your understanding of chakras or skin-walkers, or 'shamanism' is consistently and demonstrably different from the beliefs and religions of the people you claim to be inspired by, then what are you doing? Why do you need these particular symbols is you're not going to use them correctly?

Null and Praxis did a really great job of elaborating on my point, and I kind of wanted to avoid the words 'cultural appropriation,' as they make people irrationally defensive (a fact that I think is worth dissecting in-and-of itself), but it's a conversation we need to be having in psychedelic circles. I think basic compassion (which is a lesson that I hope we all learn from love and oneness of psychedelic drugs) sort of requires we think about, not just our own individual 'right' to do something, but how that thing affects others, especially if those others have been oppressed or abused.

Imagine you are an Indigenous American. Statistically speaking, you are more than likely to living in overwhelming poverty, your culture and your people have been on the receiving end of a genocide that has lasted several hundred years. Your ancestors were brutalized and murdered, and your people were forced, often at gunpoint by the state, to abandon their beliefs and assimilate. You are a lucky survivor, but still massive systemic racism means that you are unlikely to achieve the level of wealth or security that many Americans take for granted.

Now imagine that someone, someone who has no connection to your culture, who has not suffered ANY of the costs associated with being Indigenous (racism, media silence, etc) has decided that they are going to take your personally significant spiritual symbols, and parade them around as a sign of their 'enlightenment.' These are the same symbols that your fore-bearers were forced to give up on pain of pain. Not only that, but this person isn't even describing or using them correctly, and they're mashing them together with a hodgepodge of other beliefs, some of which directly conflict with yours.

This person gets all of the style and flash of your identity without any of the difficulties or suffering that come with it. They can cut their hair, put away their beads, and get an office job when they get bored. You will still be you, with all the unfair struggles associated with that.

If you can imagine that, and decenter yourself from your own experience for a moment, then you might get a sense as to why some people think cultural appropriation is a big deal, and why all of those Indigenous groups get mad when people start playing 'Plastic Shaman.' It's why groups like New Age Frauds and Plastic Shamans exist.

The question we should all be asking when we talk about 'shamanism,' or taking things from other cultures is:

Do you need that to have a more useful, authentic experience? What is your relationship to these symbols and the people who created them? What would your practice loose if you let those things go?



The question is: is the knowledge and wisdom of that culture something that is available to you? Do you have any right to it? Or are you just taking it, regardless of whether the actual members of that culture feel about your involvement with it.

I think it's a leftover of Western Imperialism that we (and I am guilty of this as well, all the time) think that any information, any practice, is available to us by right, and that we can just walk in and take it. Or purchase it.

Maybe it's not about you. Maybe there are other things more important than your own desire to feel enlightened. Maybe there are times when the world might better if we all stepped back and said "I may want this, but what I want isn't important now, so I'm not going to take it."

No one, and I repeat, no one, is going to send armed goons to your door if you want to play 'Indians,' but if you listen to the vocal discussions about the issue coming from actual Natives and then shrug and say "eh, I'd still rather do my think and don't care if it hurts you," you may be a dick.

Blessings
~ND

There has been a tendency to condense all of the world's spiritual traditions into one. I understand why it happened because after learning many of these traditions in depth I have come to the conclusion that a lot of similarities exist between them. Various methods to achieve altered states exist throughout the entire world. One would have to be extremely narrow minded not to see any correlations between them all.

I think one point you have missed entirely is that there isn't a framework of western tradition (that's commonly available) which people use to explore these various altered mind states. Individuals are forced to learn from other culture's that are far more open minded as opposed to the science age that has dominated the west. As a consequence, people have appropriated far more... then they should have. By combining everything into a large pool one looses the unique flavors each tradition has. Not only that, as you said, it's actually insulting to the cultures as well. I'm part American Indian and even I wouldn't dare dress like one lol.

That being said, there's a lot of good knowledge and technique out there to learn, from various culture's throughout the world. Just because i'm not from India doesn't mean I won't learn about their beliefs of the third eye chakra! What I love about Ayahuascqueros or shamans (if I want to piss you off) is that they believe each plant has a spirit. And when one learns about their traditions deep enough one learns how to contact those spirits as well... but i'm probably getting a little too far out there for mr science man Just pulling your leg Nathaniel.

I sincerely don't see the need for any DM Shaman whatsoever. If youre gonna be performing healings, then do so seriously, and employ the most beneficial practices possible. Use protection, and tools, and better substances that create a more smoother and longer workable environment. Of course if you just wanna have crazy visuals, then that's fine, but to try to heal with that?



People need to educate themselves so if they are looking for a healer that they know how to find a good one because 'healings' shouldn't be performed by the misguided/ ill informed. There are many 'so called' shaman/curandero's/ Ayahuasquero's, cropping up, but at least you can research and find a good Curandero if you need one.

I don't trust a 'new age' guy using a dream catcher and zen meditation, or Facilitator, unless they know how to protect space, hold space, and work with the energies that can be released in ceremony. I personally would rather trust in the abilities of a proper trained Curandero to be able to diagnose and potentially heal certain illnesses with a combination of Icaros, Mapaccho, Ayahuasca, and Plant remedies chosen specifically. I would also know that a proper trained one would have dieted certain master teacher plants, which would give them knowledge and power over someone who didn't. I would also know that to them the vine is the tool, rather than dm, or light. The visual aspect is not so important to those people, although many Westerners misunderstand this point. I have a deep, healthy respect for this traditional work.

A proper trained Curandero would be able to help a client 'purge out' sickness, and work on them to offer help and protection.

> In contrast, i would NOT visit someone who called themselves a DM Shaman, simply because they are missing out on a very healing and important aspect of the vine. I also wouldn't trust their 'abilities' to be able to work with it, regardless of whatever other techniques they may employ.
(I have yet to hear of any Curandero who would avoid vine, and work exclusively with DM.)

Of course, some tribes employ the use of Snuffs, and although they may include traces of DM, it isn't the same, neither is changa. It also appears that the snuff's tend to be used more for recreational purposes. Ayahuasca tends to itself to healing for many reasons as well as it's smooth prolonged action.

Even if one would use those symbols "correctly", it remains a game, projections, attachments & identifications.

It is all good, we use f.e. those symbols/practices for self-expression/experience. Life, a colourful carneval in garden eden.

Here we are, we play and want to have fun, while experiencing the illusion that consciuosness slowly matures.

tseuq

Your totally mis construing what i said. I said clearly that people should be able to practice the spirituality of their choosing. I also said that if a guy wants to mix dreamcatchers yoga and ayahuasca, no problem, but i followed that up by saying IT IS A PROBLEM IF HE CALLS HIMSELF SHAMAN and claims some deep understanding and spiritual power. So im not saying such a person is a shaman, im just saying they should be able to do what they want to do. Does that make sense to you? So you misinterpereted what i said into somehow saying I think all guys who use dreamcatchers and do yoga are shamans? no not at all, way way off.

And i agree that plastic and shallow shamans are bad, very bad. Im not arguing for plastic shamans. Now do i think a white or western person has the capacity to shamanise? Absolutely, cause they are human, just like indigenous people.

And if they use tidbits from other cultures, but do so effectively and in a way that is true to that culture, more power to them.

I am in favor of and am currently trying to develop a modern modality of shamanism for those like me with no cultural basis to operate from. And yes part of this would involve taking knowledge that already exists from other cultures. Your free to have your opinions about it it, but i have the right to practice my spirituality however i choose and no ones words could influence that. I can understand instances where such appropriation is very bad, but also think it depends how you go about it, if you come from a place of real respect and understanding, and also make sure it doesnt negetively affect the culture you are borrowing from.

For example if three white guys set up a sweat lodge in the backyard and have a private sweat, and dont involve anyone else, is this practice really hurting the natives whos practice it is? expecially if they keep it private i dont see how it affects them...

and an example of how this could turn sour, could be, these white guys start allowing paying clients into their sweat lodge and profit from it and call themselves masters of the sweat, that would clearly be very bad. Simple logic must be applied on a case by case basis

To give yet another example, lets say one white guy studies with a native american medicine man and learns the techniques of the sweat lodge. He dedicates himself to the learning and is very respectful. Then after years of work he is ready to open a commercial sweat lodge and offer healing services. Where does this stand on the scale of acceptability.

I also think it is interesting to note that not only indigenous cultures are victim of appropriation. Think about the pre Christian pagans, the Christians took many of their festivals and ceremonies and turned them into Christian holidays we have today. In this case it was very damaging to the cultures. In fact much more information still exists on indigenous shamanic cultures than exists about European pre Christian cultures... Which is one reason some find themselves searching for indigenous wisdom

I think that is a very easy position to take if you are not someone who is going to be living with the costs and history of those cultural symbols.

It's simple to say 'oh it's all make-believe, let's have a grand old time' if you can take on and throw off those elements with no consequence. If you are someone for whom these symbols are a way to maintain your pride and sense of self in the face of odds that are overwhelmingly stacked against you, then it's a lot harder to imagine saying "it's all fun and games."

I would argue that compassion requires we think about how other people relate to the symbols that we use.

As an example, let's look at dreadlocks. I (a white person) could easily grow my hair into dreads, keep them as long as I like, use them as a fashion statement, and then cut them off when they become inconvient, or I get bored of them.

I can make the argument that it's all just hairstyles and we're too attached to our vanity very convincingly because, for me, it's true. It is just a hairstyle. Maybe I like the way it looks, maybe I feel like it really expresses something about me, but at the end of the day, it's just that: all about me, and I can take it or leave it whenever I want.

Now, if I am an Afro-carribian man, dreadlocks occupy a very different social and cultural context. Dreadlocks were a sign of religious devotion, and of standing by your religious devotion in the face of massive oppression, dating back to the era of chattel slavery, but still going very strong today. They're a very personal connection to a much larger identity and symbol of resilience and pride.

There are LOTS of thinkpieces online by black men and women discussing how they feel when they see white folks with dreads and they all make very similar arguments.

Again (and I cannot say this enough) no angry jackbooted SJW gestapo are going to arrest or shoot you for wearing dreads, BUT if you try and live in accordance with the principles of compassion, I think it would be important to think about how your actions effect the feelings of those around you, ESPECIALLY if those people in question are already suffering in ways that you're unlikely to ever experience, and may, in fact, be profiting off of.

Blessings
~ND

I say let's keep the old times close and create new times.



I am totally serious with the symbols I gather myself around with, full awareness. Love is the message and if you don't understand and want to persist on the past and make it the future I still love you.



I feel you, I am you.




Dreadlocks are my natural hairstyle, homo sapiens sapiens.




People, animals, plants, the earth suffers because of my luxory life I live, even if I pretend to keep it low, it produces suffering. I am facing this, because I can watch my steps and its consequences on this planet, right now.

How you conceptually (mis)interpret my apperance is a different battle. Love is the language of life, love is understanding, evolution, healthiness, sustainability, is one is infinte. I am.

tseuq