We've Moved! Visit our NEW FORUM to join the latest discussions. This is an archive of our previous conversations...

You can find the login page for the old forum here.
CHATPRIVACYDONATELOGINREGISTER
DMT-Nexus
FAQWIKIHEALTH & SAFETYARTATTITUDEACTIVE TOPICS
Is DMT better than LSD because the chance for a bad trip is a lot lower? Options
 
swimwithlove
#1 Posted : 9/22/2016 8:29:40 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 82
Joined: 22-May-2016
Last visit: 23-Oct-2016
­
 

Explore our global analysis service for precise testing of your extracts and other substances.
 
Psilosopher?
#2 Posted : 9/22/2016 9:26:39 AM

Don't Panic

Senior Member

Posts: 756
Joined: 28-Dec-2014
Last visit: 01-Oct-2022
Location: Everywhen
Ever hear of hyperslaps? Yeah, they're no joke.
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."
 
fathomlessness
#3 Posted : 9/22/2016 9:53:57 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 975
Joined: 24-Jan-2015
Last visit: 28-Feb-2023
Bodhisativa wrote:
Ever hear of hyperslaps? Yeah, they're no joke.


I agree. It is very much dose dependent.

If you smoke a sub-breakthrough dose of DMT your chances of a bad trip will be lower than a 10hour long LSD trip PURELY because the length of the LSD trip allows for my time for possible negative scenarios and thoughts to influence thought itself. Smoked DMT however is short and doesn't often allow one to process and get caught up in loops until one starts upping the dose more.

A better question would be, "how does a hyperslap compare to a bad LSD trip?"

I have heard reports of hyperslaps, it sounds the epitome of evil but at the same time all that is being described is words that point to experience and it is hard to get the meaning across of what WAS ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED. ("absolute torture" All suffering the world has ever felt" "feeling the essence of pain forever"Pleased those kinds of things.
 
TGO
#4 Posted : 9/22/2016 11:55:08 AM

Music is alive and in your soul. It can move you. It can carry you. It can make you cry! Make you laugh. Most importantly, it makes you feel! What is more important than that?

Welcoming committee

Posts: 2562
Joined: 02-May-2015
Last visit: 04-Sep-2023
Location: Lost In A Dream
IMHO, no psychedelic is inherently better than any other psychedelic. It is a matter of perception and interpretation and is almost always directly related to set and setting as to whether or not one has a positive or negative experience.

New to The Nexus? Check These Out:



One Fish Two Fish Red Fish Blue Fish

 
3rdI
#5 Posted : 9/22/2016 12:08:17 PM

veni, vidi, spici


Posts: 3642
Joined: 05-Aug-2011
Last visit: 22-Sep-2017
in my world DMT is better than everything. no contest.
INHALE, SURVIVE, ADAPT

it's all in your mind, but what's your mind???

fool of the year

 
entheogenic-gnosis
#6 Posted : 9/22/2016 2:36:26 PM
DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 2889
Joined: 31-Oct-2014
Last visit: 03-Nov-2018
I think it is in total error to compare these compounds in terms of "is one better than the other"

I see them as vehicles, if your traveling, you can take a car, a boat, a plane, a bus, and so on, each vehicle has its own advantages and disadvantages, and one vehicle may be better suited for some situations than others...yet you wouldn't say that any one vehicle is "better" than the other, they are simply different from one another.

-eg

 
smoothmonkey
#7 Posted : 9/22/2016 2:49:45 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 291
Joined: 12-Jan-2016
Last visit: 24-Jan-2021
Location: here and now boys, here and now
To add to what the others have said:

I don't think it's the substance you take -- it's who's taking it, where you take it, with whom, and what your mental/spiritual/psychological state and intention are before ingestion.

I've had much more terrifying experiences with DMT than LSD (i.e. hyperslaps).
реР рдЕрд╕рддреЛ рдорд╛ рд╕рджреНрдЧрдордп ред
рддрдорд╕реЛ рдорд╛ рдЬреНрдпреЛрддрд┐рд░реНрдЧрдордп ред
рдореГрддреНрдпреЛрд░реНрдорд╛ рдЕрдореГрддрдВ рдЧрдордп ред
 
universecannon
#8 Posted : 9/22/2016 2:56:32 PM

тШВ

Moderator | Skills: harmalas, melatonin, trip advice, lucid dreaming

Posts: 5257
Joined: 29-Jul-2009
Last visit: 24-Aug-2024
Location: 🌊
Instead of creating 2 DMT vs LSD threads at the same time, next time please just edit your original post and add the questions to the original thread

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...&m=758156#post758156

IMO these questions are sort of pointless since there's no generalized answer, its a personal question. To me, 9 hours of a hell acid trip is always worse than 5 minutes of DMT. LSD at high doses in the right setting can be far more hyperspacey than most users realize. But some have had worse trips on DMT of course.

But regardless, asking if this makes it "better" is meaningless and subjective until you define "better"



<Ringworm>hehehe, it's all fun and games till someone loses an "I"
 
тЧЛ
#9 Posted : 9/22/2016 2:58:19 PM
DMT-Nexus member

ModeratorSenior Member

Posts: 4612
Joined: 17-Jan-2009
Last visit: 07-Mar-2024
Laughing

Wut?
 
Ulim
#10 Posted : 9/22/2016 5:11:55 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 1023
Joined: 19-Mar-2016
Last visit: 07-Apr-2024
Where did you get that idea?
The chanche of a bad trip is not dependend on the compound, if you know what you are taking.

Its 100% the person. People can have bad trips on MDMA, Weed and much more of drugs that are "easy".

The bodyload of LSD and the effects of salvia are all things that dont actually do anything to you. They just "trigger" your bad trip response.

For me Salvia and LSD have felt bad during the trips at some point but I have been over the negative effects to enjoy the trip.
 
FLeP
#11 Posted : 9/22/2016 6:03:31 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 223
Joined: 30-May-2015
Last visit: 01-Sep-2020
Location: Terra
I personally would rather smoke something that is endogenous to my species rather than ingest something somebody synthesized. No hating on the LSD though. Had some amazing times.
 
entheogenic-gnosis
#12 Posted : 9/23/2016 3:24:57 PM
DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 2889
Joined: 31-Oct-2014
Last visit: 03-Nov-2018
Ulim wrote:
Where did you get that idea?
The chanche of a bad trip is not dependend on the compound, if you know what you are taking.

Its 100% the person. People can have bad trips on MDMA, Weed and much more of drugs that are "easy".

The bodyload of LSD and the effects of salvia are all things that dont actually do anything to you. They just "trigger" your bad trip response.

For me Salvia and LSD have felt bad during the trips at some point but I have been over the negative effects to enjoy the trip.


DMT is horrifying for me every time, that's not to call these experiences "bad" though...

Look at a birth, it's very traumatic for both parties, there's screaming, crying, blood, and so on, it looks like a person is being torn in half, and it probably is not pleasant for either party involved, but it's not a "bad" event, it's a beautiful and natural event, it's the gateway to the miracle of life, my DMT experiences can be thought of in this context, they are traumatic, they are an ordeal, but there's nothing "bad" about them, I posted a report of my first DMT experience below, this was a benchmark event, a true point of positive transformation, yet it was incredibly difficult and I honestly would not want to repeat it.

Quote:


*note: the dose range in this report is highly inflated, there is NEVER any reason to ever dose this high*

the first time I used N,N-dimethyltryptamine I smoked 200mgs of translucent yellow crystals on top of a small amount of high-grade cannabis, I consumed it in a single inhalation. I held the hit in less than 5 seconds when the rush began, "I don't believe it!" I kept repeating in my head, "this is impossible".... my surroundings began to quiver and slither apart, faster than anything I had ever seen everything began moving away from everything else in a mash of brilliant color geometric form, and speed, before fully shattering the "reality" in my visual and mental field, it came on like a freight train, I remember thinking "oh fuck! Get this stuff out of me!" And frantically trying to exhale. It was pure terror, I thought "now you have done it! You killed yourself!" After brief mourning at the life I had just departed from I began to pay attention to the present, I remember feeling like I was at the bottom of a foggy mountain with dirt roads, the clouds felt like a domed ceiling, everything was wet, misty, cloudy and rainy, I was overcome with an intense feeling of panic and deja-vu, I felt like a lost child, everything I knew about who I was or my life or earth seemed like a distant dream, like I dissolved out of existence, I interpreted this as dying, I knew that I was dead, and I was emotionally overwhelmed while confronting the event of my death, just like sand slipping through finger cracks I tried to hold onto this all as my entire identity as a human was dissolved, I remembered my name, the earth, my family, who I was, being a human, and life, but like grabbing at smoke, it was futile, all of this slipped away and nearly faded entirely out of my memory, impossible to cling to all this, I had to let it go...I kept thinking "what the fuck was life?" ...I could not tell if I was breathing or not, I would take air in, but couldn't feel it, I began taking in panicked deep breaths, thinking that none of the oxygen was entering my system, then noticed a pain in my chest, a giant mantis like being had its claws in my chest! It proceeded to tear open my chest and stomach removing all my organs and insides, I was about to go into shock when I saw a bright green light flash over my shoulder, it nearly hit me, it then became a beautiful fractal-geometric object, morphing and color changing, at times it was metallic at other times it was a beautiful jewel, and all the while to look into it was to view endless geometric fractal patterns, moving, morphing, and changing color. The mantis then put this object in my torn up body, he began to make billions of these objects, each one unique and radiating beautiful colored light, and the mantoid filled my body with them, billions of them, becoming small as atoms to construct the new insides of my mangled corpse, then I was sealed up and propelled into an orange light where I was resurrected, my conscious-being (soul) was becoming reunited with the physical world ...then I felt as if I was being pushed head first through a thick gelatinous membrane, violent gesticulations of the membrane surrounding me were forcing me through this thing...I was being born...slowly I began to recognize my surroundings, my face still covered in tears, I looked up and saw the branches of a tree in the yard all slither in sinister fashion in from all directions to take place and solidify as the tree in the distance, the world began to slither back into place, most things moved in an elegant liquid serpentine slithering motion, or like the dancing movements of a flame, as the world constructed itself back into the familiar, so did my conscious state and memory, I was still disoriented, and fairly traumatized, I thought I had been gone for millennia, "how long was I gone I asked?"...."about 20 minutes" was the answer ....those who were there said in reality I curled up into a ball and began to cry for 20 minutes, I was wondering why my face was wet, because it felt like I had actually just been through being born, I was still covered in tears...any way the immense deep spiritual and psychological implications of this experience left me for ever transformed, reborn as a new person entirely, it was the single most meaningful thing that has ever happened to me, and changed me in many significant ways, all for the better.
-eg


Below terence mckenna offers some insight regarding the element of fear in DMT events:

Quote:
One of the interesting characteristics of DMT is that it sometimes inspires fear - this marks the experience as existentially authentic. One of the interesting approaches to evaluating such a compound is to see how eager people are to do it a second time. A touch of terror gives the stamp of validity to the experience because it means, "This is real." We are in the balance. We read the literature, we know the maximum doses, the LD-50, and so on. But nevertheless, so great is one's faith in the mind that when one is out in it one comes to feel that the rules of pharmacology do not really apply and that control of existence on that plane is really a matter of focus of will and good luck.

I'm not saying that there's something intrinsically good about terror. I'm saying that, granted the situation, if one is not terrified then one must be somewhat out of contact with the full dynamics of what is happening. To not be terrified means either that one is a fool or that one has taken a compound that paralyzes the ability to be terrified. I have nothing against hedonism, and I certainly bring something out of it. But the experience must move one's heart, and it will not move the heart unless it deals with the issues of life and death. If it deals with life and death it will move one to fear, it will move one to tears, it will move one to laughter. These places are profoundly strange and alien. -terence mckenna


Now, this is common to DMT, and though it can occur on psilocybin or LSD, it often doesn't.

-eg
 
entheogenic-gnosis
#13 Posted : 9/23/2016 3:56:55 PM
DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 2889
Joined: 31-Oct-2014
Last visit: 03-Nov-2018
FLeP wrote:
I personally would rather smoke something that is endogenous to my species rather than ingest something somebody synthesized. No hating on the LSD though. Had some amazing times.


LSD is only semi-synthetic, well, at least it was until the total synthesis of lysergic acid was perfected, regardless the core of the compound is plant derived, either through claviceps fungi or through the seeds of several species of vine. The seeds of Ipomoea violacea even have a long history of human use as an entheogen.

The discovery of LSD was absolutely unusual to say the least, a Swiss chemist doing fairly mundane research synthesized a series of compounds, one of which was LSD, sandoz, who he was working for, said "it's uninteresting, move on", and he did. Then for some unknown reason years down the road, Hoffman synthesizes the compound again, and claims to have accidentally gotten some into his system resulting in a psychedelic event, after this event he began to bioassay the compound under controlled conditions.

I don't think that Hoffman accidentally got the compound into his system, he was a meticulous Swiss chemist, getting an unknown compound in your system could mean death, and I'm certain Hoffman made every precaution to prevent this. I think he re-synthesized the compound and intentionally consumed it, now, just consuming untested and unknown compounds is highly irresponsible, and could have marred Hoffman's reputation, or perhaps his employers would have fired him for such an act. I think for whatever reason Hoffman re-synthesized and consumed the compound, and after its unexpected activity, he claimed it got into his system by mistake.

Whatever made Hoffman re-synthesize compound, and however it got into his system, the result was a reawakening to the psychedelic experience, which had been absent from western mass-consciousness since eleusis, which is a miracle, out of seemingly nowhere, a Swiss chemist forever changed history and the human experience.

...what made Hoffman re-synthesize LSD?

unusual to say the least...

Below David E. Nichols speculates that Hoffman never ingested any LSD that first time, he suggests Hoffman had a mystical experience, which he attributed to the compound, which by coincidence happened to be a psychedelic capable of inducing mystical experience...Nichols interpretation leaves more to "the other" or "fate" or "God" than my theory on this topic...

Regardless, it was unusual to say the least.

Quote:
We know that Albert originally synthesized LSD in 1938 as part of an ambitious program to make a number of lysergamides. LSD-25 was only the 25th in the series. I actually don't know how many of those compounds he made, but let's assume he only made 30. So we had up to 30 in the series. He may have made many more actually, but at least say 30. And they were all tested; he sent the pharmacology department LSD-25, 24, 23... and so forth. They then say, "LSD-25: not interesting." The assays of that day really didn't provide much information; they were very unsophisticated. But five years later, Albert has a hunch that the pharmacology department missed something on this 25th in the series.

Now that's kind of peculiar. I'm familiar with the drug industry, and I've actually started a small company myself. Imagine you're a musician, and you've created this musical piece. It's really wonderful; it's one of the best pieces you've ever written; you play it for people, they think it's great. And this one artist comes down. He's very creative but he has no musical talent at all, really tone deaf, he listens to your music and he says, "Man that sucks. You missed something. There's something missing." Now you as a musician are probably going to have some sort of a gut reaction to that. And even though the pharmacologist at Sandoz was probably a friend of Albert's, can you imagine this chemist coming down the hall and saying, "You know, I made this compound five years ago, out of this whole series, and there's this one compound, LSD-25, that you said was uninteresting... but you must have missed something. I just have this 'peculiar presentiment,' this strange hunch that you missed something." You're going to look at Albert and say, "You know, really, I'm an expert in pharmacology Albert. We tested it very well."

The Germans and the Swiss are very precise chemists, and pharmacologists, and scientists. There wouldn't have been any question about this being somehow mis-analyzed the first time.

This is another interesting point. Why the 25th? We know that only the 25th in the series was active. Any other compound that he made -- and I've made many of them, we've tested many of them -- none of the others approach LSD, either in its sophistication or in its potency. Only the 25th. And this is unusual. In pharmacology often you have a regular series. If we think of things like DOB, and DOI, there's a kind of regular progression. They all fit into a kind of subgenus. And LSD doesn't. We don't call the other members of the series Albert made as LSD something or other, but if we had LSD-23, 24 and 26, they would all be one-tenth the activity of LSD-25. Peculiar presentiment indeed!

As I've said, Swiss and German chemists have a reputation -- today and back then -- for being absolutely meticulous. If we had gone into Albert's lab at Sandoz in 1943, we would probably have found everything in its place, organized in an obsessively neat manner. No dirty glassware, no trash on the floor, meticulous. How in the world did a meticulous Swiss chemist get 50 to 75 micrograms or more of LSD into his body? We don't know.

Another fact: I've made LSD in my lab on many occasions for research purposes, possibly in not so meticulous a manner as Albert Hofmann. Nothing ever happened. I had several graduate students who made LSD as an intermediate for projects. No accidental ingestion of LSD ever occurred. A technician in my lab makes it routinely because we use it as a drug to train our rats. He's learned by experience that he never gets high, nothing ever happens. And yesterday I was talking to Nick Sand, and Nick said, "I made a solution of LSD in DMSOтАж" -- DMSO (dimethyl sulfoxide) is a chemical that greatly enhances absorption of other chemicals through the skin -- he says, "тАжI painted it on my skin. Nothing happened." A concentrated solution and nothing happened! How did this very meticulous Swiss chemist get the LSD into his body? I don't know.

The other fact we need to think about is when Albert was a child, he had a spontaneous mystical experience. Now depending on whether you're a psychologist or a psychiatrist or whatever, we could say that Albert had a predisposition to altered states of consciousness.

So what facts do we know? I'm going to formulate a hypothesis. He took a dose that by your consensus should have lasted certainly more than two hours, but it only lasted two hours. He was a meticulous chemist -- a Swiss chemist. Anyone I know who's worked with LSD -- and Nick Sand painted a solution of it on his arm -- didn't get high. This doesn't make sense. And what is this peculiar presentiment? Why the 25th in the series? Inexplicable! And, he was predisposed to altered states of consciousness.

The only hypothesis I can come up with that's consistent with all of these facts is that on April 16, 1943, Albert Hofmann did not get LSD in his body at all. He had a spontaneous mystical experience!
https://erowid.org/gener...indstates4_nichols.shtml


LSD also has the mono-methyl-tryptamine moiety burried within its structure, and NMT is an endogenous compound as well.

After tryptophan is decarboxalated to tryptamine , the indole amine methyl transerase S-Adenosyl methionine donates a methyl group to the tryptamine, becoming S-Adenosyl-L-homocysteine as it does so, giving NMT, Which is again methylated by SAM which becomes SAH, giving DMT...so as an intermediate to the biosynthesis of DMT, NMT will exist in humans endogenously.

(If you look at LSD, and start at the benzene ring, then move over to the pyrrole ring, then from the far right edge of the compound follow a two carbon bridge up to a nitrogen with a methyl group attached, position 6, you have just traced out the NMT moiety burried with in the structure of LSD)

Any tryptamine or phenethylamine psychedelic is at least related to your higher neurotransmitters, as they are also tryptamines or phenethylamines (serotonin, melatonin, dopamine, adrenaline, etc...) I consider LSD a tryptamine, well it's a lysergamide, but it also fits into the tryptamine category.

-eg
 
swimwithlove
#14 Posted : 9/25/2016 9:04:33 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 82
Joined: 22-May-2016
Last visit: 23-Oct-2016
entheogenic-gnosis wrote:
FLeP wrote:
I personally would rather smoke something that is endogenous to my species rather than ingest something somebody synthesized. No hating on the LSD though. Had some amazing times.


LSD is only semi-synthetic, well, at least it was until the total synthesis of lysergic acid was perfected, regardless the core of the compound is plant derived, either through claviceps fungi or through the seeds of several species of vine. The seeds of Ipomoea violacea even have a long history of human use as an entheogen.

The discovery of LSD was absolutely unusual to say the least, a Swiss chemist doing fairly mundane research synthesized a series of compounds, one of which was LSD, sandoz, who he was working for, said "it's uninteresting, move on", and he did. Then for some unknown reason years down the road, Hoffman synthesizes the compound again, and claims to have accidentally gotten some into his system resulting in a psychedelic event, after this event he began to bioassay the compound under controlled conditions.

I don't think that Hoffman accidentally got the compound into his system, he was a meticulous Swiss chemist, getting an unknown compound in your system could mean death, and I'm certain Hoffman made every precaution to prevent this. I think he re-synthesized the compound and intentionally consumed it, now, just consuming untested and unknown compounds is highly irresponsible, and could have marred Hoffman's reputation, or perhaps his employers would have fired him for such an act. I think for whatever reason Hoffman re-synthesized and consumed the compound, and after its unexpected activity, he claimed it got into his system by mistake.

Whatever made Hoffman re-synthesize compound, and however it got into his system, the result was a reawakening to the psychedelic experience, which had been absent from western mass-consciousness since eleusis, which is a miracle, out of seemingly nowhere, a Swiss chemist forever changed history and the human experience.

...what made Hoffman re-synthesize LSD?

unusual to say the least...

Below David E. Nichols speculates that Hoffman never ingested any LSD that first time, he suggests Hoffman had a mystical experience, which he attributed to the compound, which by coincidence happened to be a psychedelic capable of inducing mystical experience...Nichols interpretation leaves more to "the other" or "fate" or "God" than my theory on this topic...

Regardless, it was unusual to say the least.

Quote:
We know that Albert originally synthesized LSD in 1938 as part of an ambitious program to make a number of lysergamides. LSD-25 was only the 25th in the series. I actually don't know how many of those compounds he made, but let's assume he only made 30. So we had up to 30 in the series. He may have made many more actually, but at least say 30. And they were all tested; he sent the pharmacology department LSD-25, 24, 23... and so forth. They then say, "LSD-25: not interesting." The assays of that day really didn't provide much information; they were very unsophisticated. But five years later, Albert has a hunch that the pharmacology department missed something on this 25th in the series.

Now that's kind of peculiar. I'm familiar with the drug industry, and I've actually started a small company myself. Imagine you're a musician, and you've created this musical piece. It's really wonderful; it's one of the best pieces you've ever written; you play it for people, they think it's great. And this one artist comes down. He's very creative but he has no musical talent at all, really tone deaf, he listens to your music and he says, "Man that sucks. You missed something. There's something missing." Now you as a musician are probably going to have some sort of a gut reaction to that. And even though the pharmacologist at Sandoz was probably a friend of Albert's, can you imagine this chemist coming down the hall and saying, "You know, I made this compound five years ago, out of this whole series, and there's this one compound, LSD-25, that you said was uninteresting... but you must have missed something. I just have this 'peculiar presentiment,' this strange hunch that you missed something." You're going to look at Albert and say, "You know, really, I'm an expert in pharmacology Albert. We tested it very well."

The Germans and the Swiss are very precise chemists, and pharmacologists, and scientists. There wouldn't have been any question about this being somehow mis-analyzed the first time.

This is another interesting point. Why the 25th? We know that only the 25th in the series was active. Any other compound that he made -- and I've made many of them, we've tested many of them -- none of the others approach LSD, either in its sophistication or in its potency. Only the 25th. And this is unusual. In pharmacology often you have a regular series. If we think of things like DOB, and DOI, there's a kind of regular progression. They all fit into a kind of subgenus. And LSD doesn't. We don't call the other members of the series Albert made as LSD something or other, but if we had LSD-23, 24 and 26, they would all be one-tenth the activity of LSD-25. Peculiar presentiment indeed!

As I've said, Swiss and German chemists have a reputation -- today and back then -- for being absolutely meticulous. If we had gone into Albert's lab at Sandoz in 1943, we would probably have found everything in its place, organized in an obsessively neat manner. No dirty glassware, no trash on the floor, meticulous. How in the world did a meticulous Swiss chemist get 50 to 75 micrograms or more of LSD into his body? We don't know.

Another fact: I've made LSD in my lab on many occasions for research purposes, possibly in not so meticulous a manner as Albert Hofmann. Nothing ever happened. I had several graduate students who made LSD as an intermediate for projects. No accidental ingestion of LSD ever occurred. A technician in my lab makes it routinely because we use it as a drug to train our rats. He's learned by experience that he never gets high, nothing ever happens. And yesterday I was talking to Nick Sand, and Nick said, "I made a solution of LSD in DMSOтАж" -- DMSO (dimethyl sulfoxide) is a chemical that greatly enhances absorption of other chemicals through the skin -- he says, "тАжI painted it on my skin. Nothing happened." A concentrated solution and nothing happened! How did this very meticulous Swiss chemist get the LSD into his body? I don't know.

The other fact we need to think about is when Albert was a child, he had a spontaneous mystical experience. Now depending on whether you're a psychologist or a psychiatrist or whatever, we could say that Albert had a predisposition to altered states of consciousness.

So what facts do we know? I'm going to formulate a hypothesis. He took a dose that by your consensus should have lasted certainly more than two hours, but it only lasted two hours. He was a meticulous chemist -- a Swiss chemist. Anyone I know who's worked with LSD -- and Nick Sand painted a solution of it on his arm -- didn't get high. This doesn't make sense. And what is this peculiar presentiment? Why the 25th in the series? Inexplicable! And, he was predisposed to altered states of consciousness.

The only hypothesis I can come up with that's consistent with all of these facts is that on April 16, 1943, Albert Hofmann did not get LSD in his body at all. He had a spontaneous mystical experience!
https://erowid.org/gener...indstates4_nichols.shtml


LSD also has the mono-methyl-tryptamine moiety burried within its structure, and NMT is an endogenous compound as well.

After tryptophan is decarboxalated to tryptamine , the indole amine methyl transerase S-Adenosyl methionine donates a methyl group to the tryptamine, becoming S-Adenosyl-L-homocysteine as it does so, giving NMT, Which is again methylated by SAM which becomes SAH, giving DMT...so as an intermediate to the biosynthesis of DMT, NMT will exist in humans endogenously.

(If you look at LSD, and start at the benzene ring, then move over to the pyrrole ring, then from the far right edge of the compound follow a two carbon bridge up to a nitrogen with a methyl group attached, position 6, you have just traced out the NMT moiety burried with in the structure of LSD)

Any tryptamine or phenethylamine psychedelic is at least related to your higher neurotransmitters, as they are also tryptamines or phenethylamines (serotonin, melatonin, dopamine, adrenaline, etc...) I consider LSD a tryptamine, well it's a lysergamide, but it also fits into the tryptamine category.

-eg


Damn good post. Thank you for this. Albert's story is very intriguing, it's the eeriest thing SWIM's cousin's turtle has ever read. Today SWIM's cousin's turtle read the eeriest thing in all its years of living. "The other" reminds SWIM's cousin's turtle of "them" from Interstellar (2014). So very plausible and so very eerie.

SWIM's cousin's turtle has been thinking about that mantis-putting-jewels-in-someone's-stomach breakthrough trip a lot during this past year тАФ as it was very memorable for it тАФ but for the life of it forgot where it read it until now. It was a pleasure to read your first breakthrough trip again. The first time SWIM's cousin's turtle read it may have been in a different thread, as Google shows it's in multiple threads on DMT Nexus. Nevertheless, thank you for spreading the good word about such an amazing first breakthrough.

1. So eg, how do you personally think Albert got LSD into his system?
2. Why were they synthesizing LSD in the first place?
3. Why were they synthesizing so many different LSDs?
4. Even if you're extremely meticulous, is it possible to get high on LSD by accidentally touching your mouth or eye? Maybe he had something in his eye, like an eyelash or something, and wanted to get it out?

Thank you,
swimwithlove
 
entheogenic-gnosis
#15 Posted : 9/25/2016 6:02:29 PM
DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 2889
Joined: 31-Oct-2014
Last visit: 03-Nov-2018
Quote:
swimwithlove said:
1. So eg, how do you personally think Albert got LSD into his system?
2. Why were they synthesizing LSD in the first place?
3. Why were they synthesizing so many different LSDs?
4. Even if you're extremely meticulous, is it possible to get high on LSD by accidentally touching your mouth or eye? Maybe he had something in his eye, like an eyelash or something, and wanted to get it out?


(Just to shorten things up I copied your last questions and placed them on the quotation box, rather than re-quote the whole long thing)

(About the experience report, thank you! I appreciate that you enjoyed it, I've posted it many times here, I'm just glad it gets read, and that some enjoy it.)

1. I think he intentionally consumed it, keep in mind he spent a good deal of time developing these compounds, and sandoz basically said "it's uninteresting, move on", something told Albert to re-synthesize that specific compound, and I feel after he did so, he intentionally consumed it. Now, if a chemist told his employer he re-synthesized and consumed an unknown compound it would look very irresponsible, it could possibly scar his reputation, or cause him to lose his job, but because of the tremendous event he couldn't keep it quite, so he said it must have gotten into his system by mistake.

2. sandoz was exploring ergot alkaloids for mundane pharmaceutical research, and Hoffman was developing new compounds by reacting lysergic acid with various amines and other things, it's not like he invented just LSD, I think there were over 30, the number 25 in "LSD-25" was placed there because LSD was Hoffman's 25th ergot derived compound.

I'll let Hoffman himself explain:

Quote:
Looking for a new field of research, I asked Professor Stoll to let me continue the investigations on the alkaloids of ergot, which he had begun in 1917 and which had led directly to the isolation of ergotamine in 1918. Ergotamine, discovered by Stoll, was the first ergot alkaloid obtained in pure chemical form. Although ergotamine quickly took a significant place in therapeutics (under the trade name Gynergen) as a hemostatic remedy in obstetrics and as a medicament in the treatment of migraine, chemical research on ergot in the Sandoz laboratories was abandoned after the isolation of ergotamine and the determination of its empirical formula. Meanwhile, at the beginning of the thirties, English and American laboratories had begun to determine the chemical structure of ergot alkaloids. They had also discovered a new, water-soluble ergot alkaloid, which could likewise be isolated from the mother liquor of ergotamine production. So I thought it was high time that Sandoz resumed chemical research on ergot alkaloids, unless we wanted to risk losing our leading role in a field of medicinal research, which was already becoming so important. -Hoffman; LSD my problem child



The answer to 3 is about the same as 2, they were exploring many different ergot derived compounds for rather mundane chemical and pharmaceutical research.

Quote:
Lysergic acid proved to be a rather unstable substance, and its rebonding with basic radicals posed difficulties. In the technique known as Curtius' Synthesis, I ultimately found a process that proved useful for combining lysergic acid with amines. With this method I produced a great number of lysergic acid compounds. By combining lysergic acid with the amino alcohol propanolamine, I obtained a compound that was identical to the natural ergot alkaloid ergobasine. With that, the first synthesisтАФthat is, artificial productionтАФof an ergot alkaloid was accomplished. This was not only of scientific interest, as confirmation of the chemical structure of ergobasine, but also of practical significance, because ergobasine, the specifically uterotonic, hemostatic principle, is present in ergot only in very trifling quantities. With this synthesis, the other alkaloids existing abundantly in ergot could now be converted to ergobasine, which was valuable in obstetrics.
After this first success in the ergot field, my investigations went forward on two fronts. First, I attempted to improve the pharmacological properties of ergobasine by variations of its amino alcohol radical. My colleague Dr. J. Peyer and I developed a process for the economical production of propanolamine and other amino alcohols. Indeed, by substitution of the propanolamine contained in ergobasine with the amino alcohol butanolamine, an active principle was obtained that even surpassed the natural alkaloid in its therapeutic properties. This improved ergobasine has found worldwide application as a dependable uterotonic, hemostatic remedy under the trade name Methergine, and is today the leading medicament for this indication in obstetrics.
I further employed my synthetic procedure to produce new lysergic acid compounds for which uterotonic activity was not prominent, but from which, on the basis of their chemical structure, other types of interesting pharmacological properties could be expected. In 1938, I produced the twenty-fifth substance in this series of lysergic acid derivatives: lysergic acid diethylamide, abbreviated LSD-25 (Lyserg-säure-diäthylamid) for laboratory usage.
I had planned the synthesis of this compound with the intention of obtaining a circulatory and respiratory stimulant (an analeptic). Such stimulating properties could be expected for lysergic acid diethylamide, because it shows similarity in chemical structure to the analeptic already known at that time, namely nicotinic acid diethylamide (Coramine). During the testing of LSD-25 in the pharmacological department of Sandoz, whose director at the time was Professor Ernst Rothlin, a strong effect on the uterus was established. It amounted to some 70 percent of the activity of ergobasine. The research report also noted, in passing, that the experimental animals became restless during the narcosis. The new substance, however, aroused no special interest in our pharmacologists and physicians; testing was therefore discontinued.
For the next five years, nothing more was heard of the substance LSD-25.
-Hoffman LSD my problem child

http://www.psychedelic-library.org/child1.htm you can read the whole book here.

For number 4, I highly doubt it, you must keep in mind that exposure to an unknown compound could mean injury or death, and Hoffman was well aware of the hazards of ergot, and ergot poisoning, and these Swiss chemists were known for their precision and meticulousnesss, and he was in a corporate, well funded laboratory. It may have been possible, however the first times Hoffman synthesized LSD and the other lysergamides this did not happen, none of the other many compounds he was working with ever got into his system...so I doubt it...

Five years after sandoz said it was uninteresting, Hoffman mysteriously re-synthesizes this compound and it mysteriously got into his system...and the world is awakened to LSD as a result, for the first time since eleusis psychedelics had entered the mass psyche of the west...

-eg

 
 
Users browsing this forum
Guest (2)

DMT-Nexus theme created by The Traveler
This page was generated in 0.084 seconds.