Really? Headaches because too much vasodilation? Interesting, that's something I usually get from vasoconstriction. Got something to read about that?

I'm usually the type of person that never gets headaches for no apparent reason.

I think what i get is Hypotension.

Vasoconstriction can also cause headaches, but so can low blood pressure, and vasodiltion contributes to low blood pressure.

Thanks . Still not quite convinced though. I often drink cacao in water in high amounts for the specific purpose to use as an vasodilator, and never experience headaches this way (not even with harmalas), so maybe there's something else to it in my case.

Maybe, but it does seem to be well known that too much vasodilation can lead to low blood pressure which can cause headaches and stiff neck/shoulders and upper back pain (which seems to be what i experience). Maybe it is something else in your case. But chances are it's not just vasodilation, there's other things Harmalas do as well, but when the Harmala reverse tolerance is built up and the negative side-effects go away, it's a lot easier to tell if something is affecting you or not. I don't seem to get any vasoconstriction from Caffeine that i can feel, but like i said i think i do from Coffee. There could perhaps be something else in tea that's doing it besides the Caffeine.

Yeah sorry mate of course you're right about the vasodilation thing, otherwise ergot wouldn't work. Didn't had this filed away in my brain properly.

Still must be some other issue with me personally because I don't get headaches from other plant vasodilators in combination with tea.

I can't confirm the reverse tolerance, but I don't get nausea or other negative effects anyways. I had suttle nausea maybe once or twice, but it went away in 5 minutes both times.

ShamensStamen, I believe Coffee and Tea have completely different profiles when it comes to their active ingredients. Tea is typically a smoother "Buzz" as compared to Coffee. My source says it contains Theobromine along with a number of other things that coffee lacks. They are two completely different substances with similar effects although one may have effects that the other does not.

Source: Why Tea is a better Buzz

On the Harmala note, I have taken Syrian Rue 3 times. Every time, no matter the preparation (have not tried pure freebase yet) I get severe nausea that sneaks up on me in the form of projectile vomiting (one time 45 mins after consumption, the other 2.5 hours after consumption, and the other 1 hour after consumption.) Along with the nausea I get severe motion sickness , severe slowing in visual tracking (when I look say, to the left from the right my vision lags), and on top of that I too get the headache, although I would say for me (and I haven't been sick for awhile so this comparison may not be adequate) Rue just feels like a psychedelic flu.

JohnIce2 - Yeah i haven't tried tea yet in combo with Harmalas and haven't had tea in quite awhile. Every now and then i'll have Coffee, but for the most part i just drink caffeinated soda. But i am now interested in making some sweet tea soon and giving it a whirl. As for the Harmala sickness, yeah it can be quite rough on occasions lol.

What's your dosage been? 3 to 3.5 grams of Rue seed (or 180 to 185mgs of Rue extract) doesn't seem to cause me any nausea/vomiting and doesn't have a bad body load, but if i take like 4 to 4.5 grams of Rue seed (or 200mgs or more of Rue extract) that's when the nausea/vomiting and rough body load comes. Though the extract does feel cleaner and lighter on the stomach than Rue seed, but can definitely still cause nausea/vomiting with a high enough dosage.

But yeah if you were to take strong dosages of Rue daily or every other day for a week or two, the undesirable side-effects of Rue will die down/go away, and it feels much cleaner and much more usable/tolerable, allowing you to handle stronger dosages better. And Lemon EO can block out the nausea/vomiting and cleans up the body load ime, so it can be used for the first little bit until the reverse tolerance is built up enough that you don't need the Lemon EO. But i still don't know much about how Lemon EO would affect the DMT, so i'd take it with the Rue and then take the DMT after the reverse tolerance is built up a bit to make for a cleaner feeling experience.

hermes111 - Not saying it's not the tea, because it could be, but it's most likely something the Harmalas do, but i plan on making some tea in the next few days and i'll give it a go. If it is an interaction between something in the tea and the Harmalas, i should experience it because i'm taking a heavy dosage of Rue daily. Another reason it could just be the Harmalas, is because medications that do similar things can have a similar side-effect profile, once you look at what all the Harmalas are known to do, like the enzymes they inhibit and receptors they bind to, and you look at medications that do the same, you can usually see that they cause similar side-effects. And i think that as the Harmala reverse tolerance builds up, perhaps certain receptors it binds to downregulate, while it's main properties remain intact, thus reducing side-effects. Because once i have the reverse tolerance built up, it's quite easy to tell what affects me and how it effects me when it comes to taking something with Rue. Though i still don't see much in the way of foods giving me any interactions with the Rue.

ShamensStamen - Well the times I did Rue it was 6g made into a tea. 4g raw seed (Baaaaaaad bad bad bad idea). and then 4g made into a tea. I was attempting to use it for a experience (and I got one. but the side effects far outweighed that of the benefits due to my tolerance at the time of consumption). I just couldn't get passed the motion sickness. Like it was so bad that I could not keep my eyes open and even after completely purging out my stomach contents I was still gagging in bed until I passed out. The motion sickness gets me every-time and its hard to see without feeling Nauseated if that makes since. I know that Dramamine can help with motion sickness but I have sworn never to take that or related chemicals ever again.

Next time I may indeed try Lemon EO! I hear that in-itself is mildly psychedelic (probobly due to D-Limonene) so it may have great synergy with the Rue! I do not think I am quite ready for Aya. yet though. Hell if I prepare that wrong I could be tripping for a few days (even after the chemicals where off I have heard some are not down to baseline until a few days later and I have allready had this experience with other Hallucinogens so I believe if I use it I may not make it back down from the Astral realm for quite some time).

Spiritofspice thank you for emphasizing the other components aside the (mansked) extracted components. I've heard before of their good tasks in the body (taking into account abortical properties). What were your boiling times pls?

Also, thanks for mentioning dose + whole seeds. Who tries the same with ground seeds is in for a harsh surprise I recon

Did anybody mention that Ergotamine tartrate was used in medicine to treat migraines due to its biological activity as a vasoconstrictor?

-eg

6-methoxy-tetrahydro-beta-carboline (pinoline) is a product at the end of a long line of endogenous chemistry.

First, tryptophan, an essential amino acid enters the body through diet, this tryptophan then can take one of two paths, one, it can be 5-hydroxylated then decarboxylated to give serotonin, which is the path relevant to this discussion, or it can be decarboxylated to tryptamine, methylated to N-methyl-tryptamine, and then methylated again to give DMT, however, we are speaking of the pathway to pinoline, so, once we have 5-hydroxy-tryptamine this compound is said to enter the pineal gland where it is metabolized to N-acetyl-5-methoxy-tryptamine (melatonin), which is then further cyclized to pinoline. However, this pathway is disputed.



So, the neurogenesis produced by similar beta-carboline compounds should not be all that surprising.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih....mc/articles/PMC3841998/#!po=9.25926
The above link elucidates the benneficial effects of peganum harmala seeds, it's very easy to understand, and the link provides the entire article, rather than just the abstract.

Peganum harmala has been used worldwide to treat cardiac disease and hypertention. extract of the seeds of P. harmala have antispasmodic, anticholinergic, antihistaminic and antiadrenergic effects. Various studies have shown different antiparasidal, antifungal, antibacterial and insecticidal effects of the alkaloids derived from P. harmala seeds.

The potentials of tryptamine and beta-carboline compounds will never cease to amaze me..

-eg

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih....pmc/articles/PMC3841998/

The link did not work in my last post, sorry.

-eg

I can attest to the antidepressant effects of rue seed nd extracted harmala use over extended periods, sometimes semi-frequently following a fasting and restrictive diet regiment. Also, it has been very beneficial to me for fighting addictions of various sorts, as well as providing a generally more psychically aware and protected being to my consciousness. I find it very intriguing the harmala alkaloid profile has been referred to as telepathine.

Terence mckenna offers some insight on this exact topic:



-eg

And how many weeks goes that on please? One advice that comes back often is to cycle with plants, not to continue for too long. I guess that one Sunday off is not enough to call it cycling plants?

Second, TBH I would not be able to go to work on 6 gr rue
So you take that in at the evening to be able to operate the next day?
TY

This is my stance with every psychedelic, you must dose high, however, I have found that PHS will produce nausea and physical discomfort at higher doses, without much pay off..

-eg

Spiritofspice I think your relationship with rue is legendary to say the least.
O my god I am more thinking of spiritofRue

Where did you get the inspiration to do so?
Are you a sole artist or do you have a 'club' of rue riders?
Do you live in a rue-usage supported society?

Have you any idea what happens if you stop? Or how to stop such a deep practice?
Is stopping an option? Do you ever want to stop?

Is such a deep practice documented/cultural supported or is this discovering raw terrain?

Sorry for the many questions but I find this all very intriguing.

Then next:
do you find the origin of the rue plants to be a factor of influence?
The times I was active in ayahuasca forum, there was a Turkish guy very much devoted to rue and he concluded that the strains he had from certain regions in his home land were of special signature compared to those available from internet - Iran. I don't know if this is any of your concerns, but just asking if so. Also, he mentioned different tunes of experiences if the seeds were token early or late in the season of seed production. Any remarks welcome.

Thank you!

It feels very healing, And it's the best and cheapest Anti-depressant.
It puts you in a deep meditative state and it doesn't mess with your mind.
Your mind becomes a lot more clean and clear.. I love it, It's super relaxing, It's like being gently loved by heaven.

It's said that the ancient Amazonian natives were likely brewing decoctions based solely on the banisteriopsis caapi vine, without any DMT admixture plants being present, and then over time plants were added to the brews, eventually resulting in the discovery of ayahuasca.

I've been very interested in consumption of beta-carboline containing plants without the DMT admixture...

However I've found that to obtain heavy psychological effects you must also endure heavy physical discomfort, for me any dose above 4g will produce terrible physical distress with very little psychological pay off... there are psychological effects at the 3-4g dose, which is a great dose for mono-amine oxidase inhibition, but they are mild, and it's possible that they are supposed to be mild...

I'm more interested in how you guys are using peganum harmala to obtain these effects.

(I've heard extracts of caapi vine are amazing, I've heard these extracts produce the psychological effects with less physical malaise, but I have not tried these extracts, and I have not preformed extracts of my vines or seeds. I've found that for monoamine oxidase inhibition the seeds in capsules or brewed or brewed vine work just fine. )

-eg