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good or bad acid. Options
 
dragonrider
#1 Posted : 7/21/2016 8:48:15 PM

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I just saw in the 'LSD-overdose' thread, benzyme mention that not all batches of LSD have the same mixture of isomers.
I found that intriguing because i've Always wondered if differences i experienced between different batches of LSD where just in my mind, simply the result of auto-suggestion, or correct observations.

There seems to be some controversy over whether there realy is such a thing as good or bad acid, but benzyme surely does seem to know what he's talking about.

Have other people experienced differences between different batches as well?
And would this isomer explanation also apply to other synthetic substances (2c's, MDMA, etc.)?
 

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endlessness
#2 Posted : 7/21/2016 9:26:32 PM

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The isomer that is more commonly found appart from LSD is iso-LSD which isnt active but might competitively bind to the receptors diminishing the effects of LSD. I am unaware of any other psychoactive isomers of LSD. Our statistics were something like 70% of samples were pure lsd, 10% were lsd with iso-lsd, and 20% were NBOMEs/DOx. There are variations depending on time and location, sometimes in parties we see more nbomes or dox's, sometimes less, but that is the average we've been finding.

I dont think there has been any investigation regarding ratio of isomers and qualitative aspects of the trip. I think a lot of people claim differences in "quality" but I think it's also very likely to be self suggestion. I'd like to see blind tests. Ive seen people give "good" and "bad" reviews of acid which analytically were shown to be the same.

I think that even the same exact substance and dosage in equivalent set and settings may have vastly different trips (or different substances/dosages may at times have very similar effects), it's part of the unpredictable nature of psychedelics.
 
benzyme
#3 Posted : 7/22/2016 4:23:40 AM

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it is highly probable that what people experience are the various vasoconstrictive/somatic effects from the inactive isomers.
those effects are visceral, not psychoactive nor imagined.
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
 
soulfood
#4 Posted : 7/22/2016 11:31:08 AM

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benzyme wrote:
it is highly probable that what people experience are the various vasoconstrictive/somatic effects from the inactive isomers.
those effects are visceral, not psychoactive nor imagined.



Thanks for putting that to bed. I swear I have some tabs that make me feel like i'm about to pop!
 
Swarupa
#5 Posted : 7/24/2016 9:59:17 AM
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I've come across some LSD that seemed odd, with strong physical effects but lacking visuals and the all-round effects of an LSD experience, when tested it came back 40-60% iso-LSD.

Some say 'good/bad acid' is just in your head, that if you take more of the impure LSD then it'll have the same effects as pure LSD, as the impurities are inactive. I didn't find this to be the case; while the impurities may be inactive by themself, I think they may sit in similar receptors and alter the activity of the LSD.

I still agree that most of the time it can just be in the mind, it seems to be rare to have LSD so impure that it significantly affects the experience.
 
dragonrider
#6 Posted : 7/24/2016 12:22:09 PM

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benzyme wrote:
it is highly probable that what people experience are the various vasoconstrictive/somatic effects from the inactive isomers.
those effects are visceral, not psychoactive nor imagined.

Would that also be true for other synthetic drugs?

And also, what causes these differences? Is it a matter of different precursors? I think it would make sense that natural precursors have different isomer ratio's than synthetic precursors as nature seems to have a preference for certain isomers.
 
endlessness
#7 Posted : 7/24/2016 12:27:57 PM

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benzyme wrote:
it is highly probable that what people experience are the various vasoconstrictive/somatic effects from the inactive isomers.
those effects are visceral, not psychoactive nor imagined.


LSD itself also has vasoconstrictive/somatic effects. Why do you suppose that they are so different? I'd really like to see blind tests to see if people can really tell the difference statistically.
 
benzyme
#8 Posted : 7/24/2016 2:40:48 PM

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the different isomers exert varying levels of vasoconstriction, due to varying affinities at allosteric binding sites.
I forget the book, but it cites Ki values. The other suspect is ergonovine/ergometrine, the intermediate which exerts greater vasoconstriction than LSD.

those properties were the basis for the development of bromo-lsd...vasoconstriction without the psychoactivity.
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
 
endlessness
#9 Posted : 7/24/2016 4:24:37 PM

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I don't doubt they have different affinities but my question is if there's any evidence that humans can notice those differences subjectively in this case.
 
benzyme
#10 Posted : 7/24/2016 4:37:42 PM

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I'm sure it's very noticeable, especially at common to strong doses (200-450+ug).
vasoconstrictive effects are hard to ignore.

the "metallic/electric taste" perception is probably more of a mental manifestation than somatic side effects.



dragonrider wrote:
benzyme wrote:
it is highly probable that what people experience are the various vasoconstrictive/somatic effects from the inactive isomers.
those effects are visceral, not psychoactive nor imagined.

Would that also be true for other synthetic drugs?

And also, what causes these differences? Is it a matter of different precursors? I think it would make sense that natural precursors have different isomer ratio's than synthetic precursors as nature seems to have a preference for certain isomers.


yes


and the differences are due to binding site affinities. for example, S and R ketamine..
R isomer has a stronger affinity for NMDA than the S Isomer, and will have stronger central effects.
Same analogy for d and l amphetamines with dopamine receptors.
it has to do with the orientation of the molecules side groups, and how they interact with the side groups of receptors.

the ergolines are fairly complex small molecules, thus bind numerous receptors and their subtypes i.e. serotonin, glutamate, norepinephrine, dopamine, even histamine (low affinity). it's the adrenergic and 5HT1 receptors that are responsible for vasoconstriction.
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
 
pitubo
#11 Posted : 7/25/2016 1:37:34 AM

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After many years of questionable blotters and dropper bottles holding a purple-brown liquid, REMOVED

These drops are quite potent and without the body tension that I have in the past regularly experienced with lesser grade acid. There is an amount of stimulation that interferes with my ability to succumb to sleep, but this may be inherent to the substance.

I hope that I am not becoming a permanently spoiled acid snob now.
 
benzyme
#12 Posted : 7/25/2016 1:45:44 AM

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there are various "grades" of lsd solution... lavender, amber, champagne, silver, and needlepoint (clear), respectively. REMOVED

the amber is indicative of degradation products present, and iso-compounds.
any purplish color indicates intermediate byproducts present, i.e. lumi-compounds and unreacted lysergic acid..and depending on the source material, unreacted elymoclavine, and ergopeptines.
IMO, lsd should never have any purplish color. that shows laziness in filtration (chromatography).
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
 
endlessness
#13 Posted : 7/25/2016 11:20:01 AM

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Pitubo, often LSD is diluted in solutions that aren't clear (for example I've had LSD that was dissolved in propolis extract, which is brown), so just because the solution has a certain color don't necessarily assume the LSD itself is impure.

If anybody is curious about their LSD quality, they can just send to EC's international drug testing service and have any doubts resolved. Much better than speculation.

PS: Im still skeptical that people can reliably differentiate between LSD with small amount of other isomers like iso-LSD from pure LSD judging by (supposed) small differences in somatic effects, specially considering both somatic and psychoactive effects can be so varied even with the same batch. And while it's interesting to speculate whether people can or can't tell the difference, these will just be opinions from either side, until someone actually goes ahead and does blind tests.
 
pitubo
#14 Posted : 7/25/2016 12:51:09 PM

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Endlessness, you are of course correct that color, or any other macroscopic appearance, is not an indicator of the purity of an lsd solution. The same can probably be said of taste.

There really are different grades of acid out there. I would not be surprised if some of the material that I have ingested at times, contained less then half the advertised amount of micrograms as the right isomer of the right molecule, with the other half (or more) being impurities and decay products. Apart from the noticeable difference in potency, I feel that somatic effects can also become quite apparent.

Consider also this: when recrystallizing an impure batch of lsd, the resulting crystals will be more pure, but the more impure mother liquor will nevertheless still contain a lot of lsd. I somehow doubt that this dirty mother liquor is always properly discarded into the chemical waste bin.
 
entheogenic-gnosis
#15 Posted : 7/25/2016 2:18:17 PM
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Quote:
Timothy Leary, who realized that impurities were a threat to the spreading psychedelic revolution, uttered prophetic words of warning at a Senate committee hearing in 1966, in exchange with Teddy Kennedy:

Senator Kennedy of Massachusetts: "What is it in the quality that you are frightened about?"

Dr. Leary: "We do not want amateur or black-market sale or distribution of LSD."

Senator Kennedy: "Why not?"

Dr. Leary: "Or the barbiturates or liquor. When you buy a bottle of liquor-"

Senator Kennedy: "This is not responsive. As to LSD, why do you not want it?"

Dr. Leary: "On possession?"

Senator Kennedy: "Why do you not want the indiscriminate manufacture and distribution? Is it because it is dangerous?"

Dr. Leary: "Because you do not know what you are getting..."

Despite Leary's warning, LSD was made illegal on October 16, 1966.
https://www.erowid.org/c.../lsd/lsd_writings1.shtml


Even Leary, a man credited with irresponsible LSD promotion, realized the complexity of the chemistry involved, and the need for skilled chemists to be on the front lines of LSD production.

How much of that "amazing" 60s LSD came from sandoz or Eli Lilly?

Quote:
Owsley's fellow alchemist, Tim Scully, admitted to me that the 1965 batch was impure, but claims that Owsley and he perfected a purification process in 1966. Many who used both Sandoz and Owsley - the latter came in tablets of purple (Purple Haze) and white (White Lightning) of 270 micrograms - say that Owsley acid was less mystical and had more stimulant side reactions than the Sandoz product. https://www.erowid.org/c.../lsd/lsd_writings1.shtml



The information below may be a bit out of date, because yes, none of the underground literature elucidates these key processes for purity, however, the information is easily available, specially through the internet, though if your attempting an LSD synthesis you should already understand chromatographic processes...
Quote:
Most of the books on the market that give details on the LSD process - for example, Psychedelic Guide to the Preparation of the Eucharist, by Robert Brown, Basic Drug Manufacturing and The Book of Acid, by Adam Gottlieb, as well as Michael Valentine Smith's book - fail to describe the efficient chromatographic procedures, like zone-melting chromatography, necessary for the manufacture of pure LSD. Timothy Scully told me that both he and Owsley believed the tolerable limits of impurities to be one tenth of a percentage point (requiring 99.9% purity) - far from the 50 percent figure of Michael Valentine Smith! Until careful studies are done, the true figures for tolerable impurities will remain unknown. https://www.erowid.org/c.../lsd/lsd_writings1.shtml


It's fairly simple to separate iso-LSD from LSD. The iso-LSD can then be converted back into LSD.

Quote:
onvert iso-LSD to LSD. Add 50 ml of ethanol and 5 ml of 4 N KOH per every gram of iso-LSD. Let this mixture stand for 2 hours at room temp. Evaporate in vacuo to get the LSD.

Separate iso-LSD from LSD. Dissolve the residue of the mixture of LSDs from the end of the formula in 120 ml of benzene and 40 ml of chloroform. Add tartaric or maleic acid to precipitate the LSD, filter off, add a little ether and put in refrigerator for several days to get a little more LSD, which is filtered off and added to the rest. Evaporate the filtrate in vacuo to get the iso-LSD and convert as above.
from "Recreational Drugs" by buzz


This would be worthwhile for the chemist, as more LSD could be obtained, though the general consensus seems to be that the iso-LSD is benign, and that leaving it in really is "not a big deal"



http://www.chemistry.mcmaster.ca/~chem2o6/problems/96ansmt1.html

http://i.imgur.com/YEnUHOx.gif
I had some pictures of the isomers of LSD, I'll try to post them, but I'm not sure that they saved properly, this link shows the for isomers of LSD.



[/quote]

Here shulgin elucidates the weak positions on the LSD molecule, the carboxamide grouping at position 8 and the double bond between 8 and the aromatic ring.

Quote:
: LSD is an unusually fragile molecule and some comments are in order as to its stability and storage. As a salt, in water, cold, and free from air and light exposure, it is stable indefinitely. There are two sensitive aspects of its structure. The position of the carboxamide attachment, the 8-position, is affected by basic, or high pH, conditions. Through a process called epimerization, this position can scramble, producing isolysergic acid diethylamide, or iso-LSD. This product is biologically inactive, and represents a loss of a proportionate amount of active product. A second and separate point of instability is the double bond that lies between this 8-position and the aromatic ring. Water or alcohol can add to this site, especially in the presence of light (sunlight with its ultraviolet energy is notoriously bad) to form a product that has been called lumi-LSD, which is totally inactive in man. Oh yes, and often overlooked, there may be only an infinitesimal amount of chlorine in treated tap water, but then there is only an infinitesimal amount of LSD in a typical LSD solution. And since chlorine will destroy LSD on contact, the dissolving of LSD in tap water is not appropriate. Shulgin; TIHKAL


Here is some discussion relating to impurities and LSD, the full discussion can be located on the link provided at the end of the excerpts:
Quote:
How do these impurities change the optimum course of action of LSD and the experience it creates? One of the theories is that, because d-LSD-25 is like a key (its outer electron shell has a specific shape), it fits into a number of tiny locks called "receptor sites." These are located somewhere in the brain - nobody is sure where, but one theory suggests that they might be in the brain stem. It is known, however, that these receptor sites interact only with extremely specific molecular configurations.

The various ergot compounds, cycloalkamides of LSD and lumi-LSD plug into the same receptor sites as LSD does. But these compounds evidently don't turn the lock in the smooth, clean manner of LSD. Many of these compounds have effects similar to symptoms of ergot poisoning - the St. Anthony's Fire of the Middle Ages. These symptoms include inflamed joints, headaches, nausea, and hot and cold flashes.
Hi
Isomers of LSD are another possible contaminant and indeed are reported present by the drug analysis groups. There are four possible isomers of LSD, but only the d-lysergic acid diethyl amide form is active. The other rotation forms - l-lysergic acid diethyl amide, d and l iso-lysergic acid diethyl amide (contrary to recent reports!) - are inactive. they have no pharmacological role, except possibly as a catalyst for some latent effect of LSD, or to block the action of LSD at the receptor site.

If a contaminated batch of diethyl amine is used in the manufacturing process, or if the chemist purposely decides to make them, LSD homologues might be present in the final crystal. Molecules similar to LSD in structure but with some addition, subtraction or rearrangement of action, homologues plug into the same keyhole that LSD does.

Some of these homologues have profound effects that vary in course of action and potency. For example, the strongest of he homologues, ALD-52, has 91 percent the potency of LSD and is said to have a slightly different effect upon the mind (there is some dispute about this).

However, as Albert Hofmann puts it in "Drugs Affecting the Central Nervous System": LSD has the highest and most specific effect and may therefore be considered as the genuine prototype of psychotomimetic compounds."

Thus, all impurities found in LSD are like imperfect keys. Such substances as ergot alkaloids, cycloalkamides and other lysergic acid derivatives, and LSD homologues and lumi-LSD are drugs that might open the door part way. But only pure LSD opens the doors of perception all the way.

In addition to manufactured impurities, impurities can also arise from decomposition of LSD. Dr. Albert Hofmann points out in his paper "The Chemistry of LSD": "The free base as well as the tartrate of d-lysergic acid diethyl amide, like all lysergic acid derivatives, is very sensitive to light and oxidizing agents. All preparations must be stored carefully, protected from light and from oxygen of the air, to prevent them from being destroyed within a short time."

Even if, by some chance, an underground batch were made pure, it would turn to bunk in time, especially if put in conventional underground packaging (blotter or windowpane) that does not protect it from light or air. Pharmaceutical LSD is stored in vacuum vials in nitrogen gas. A pure, viable form of black-market LSD should find its way to the consumer in a tablet coated with pure, inert buffering material or in a vacuum vial, but this expensive packaging is certainly not reconcilable with dealing for profit.

Why is it that most of he underground LSD in the United States is made wrong? There are several other possible explanations. One chemist, for instance, told me that it was "because all the pros are out of the field." That is to say, most underground chemists, whether motivated by altruism or greed, are incompetent to manufacture pharmaceutical-grade chemicals. https://www.erowid.org/c.../lsd/lsd_writings1.shtml


I hope there was some useful information provided above.

I'm an organic chemistry student*, and have been utterly fascinated by lysergamide compounds, again, I'm still learning, I don't know everything and I occasionally make mistakes, though my knowledge regarding psychedelic tryptamines, phenethylamines, and lysergamides is quite vast and growing daily, I enjoy encountering those who are more knowledgeable than myself, and am hoping to learn as much as I can in this area.

*though I've taken a brake from academia

-eg
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benzyme
#16 Posted : 7/25/2016 3:33:21 PM

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I've personally observed LSA tartrate in ethanolic solution in a clear dram vial (not actinic glass) turn from clear to amber with exposure to light and a bit of air.
the same would happen to LSD tartrate.

that being said, it isn't far-fetched to observe that a less potent batch (less psychoactive) would exert noticeable somatic effects.
that, IMO, is bad acid.
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
 
GMM
#17 Posted : 10/5/2016 7:56:30 PM

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thanks nexians , you answered a lot of my questions in this thread Thumbs up

is there a simple way to "clean"my"bad"acid ?
 
downwardsfromzero
#18 Posted : 10/5/2016 8:25:37 PM

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GMM wrote:
[...]
is there a simple way to "clean"my"bad"acid ?

Ha ha!

Sorry, no. At a guess, you are unlikely to have sufficient quantities for the process to be worthwhile.




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
The Traveler
#19 Posted : 10/5/2016 8:45:55 PM

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HI all people taking part of this thread.

I dislike to say this but I have removed all parts of peoples posts regarding obtaining/aquiring/etc LSD due to well known reasons.

Too bad I had to do this again while you all should know better now.


The Traveler
 
Bancopuma
#20 Posted : 10/6/2016 10:58:02 AM

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I had always considered the whole purity of LSD affecting the trip thing something of a hippie myth, given the potency of the drug; I figured how it could really make a noticeable difference to the experience. But given more experience, I've changed my views on the matter; I think purity of one's LSD can and does affect the experience. A little while back I got to sample some "White on White" tabs, laid with high purity white fluff LSD. I sampled these with a friend and long term tripping companion who is experienced as I am. We were both surprised at the difference, at how profound it was. The come up on these tabs was much smoother, less turbulent, dark or anxiety prone (these effects become more noticeable on higher doses), and also less body issues such as stomach gas compared to other tabs...my friend often dry heaves and sometimes purges on the come up of LSD, and he didn't get that on this or other occasions consuming these tabs. These tabs induced an incredibly clear and crystalline head space...you were very much in the space, but it was so clear and one felt so on point that it felt pseudo-sober at times. There was less turbulent electrical brain effects as well, and the overall the experience just felt cleaner, clearer, smoother on body and mind. These effects were experienced dependably and consistently, irrespective of setting.

So I would say, as someone else did when I first reported my observations here (linked in the post below), that cleanliness is next to Godliness when it comes to LSD, and it is worth seeking out the good stuff if one has the means to do so.

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=29961
 
 
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