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Do Plants Have Consciousness? Options
 
woogyboogy
#41 Posted : 5/11/2016 12:23:26 AM

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Consciousness is along with love, at least for me, one of the most confusing and arbitrary used words of our time, espescially in the new age scene.
You hear people talk about living a conscious life, walking the conscious path. practising consciousness, and so on. Same goes for love. I dont have anything against it, and usually I understand what the people are pointing at the way they use the word, sometimes even find myself using it in various ways.
But for a discussion one needs a more pin-point definition, that I agree.

Consciousness comes from being conscious and therefore to me means awareness or being aware of my physical perceptions/thoughts.

The question is if consciousness is a by product of the physical world or something that is being „channeled“ through our brain, a forest, or mycelium network, and then tweaked into different perceptions by various cells and nerves. I think no one can answer that in a way true to scientific standards.

I have no reason to imply that a plant shouldnt be aware of things. I know a plant can sense certain signals and react to it. So do humans. I dont know though if a plant can „consciously“ decide to react in a certain way, but neither do I know for certain if I can.

That how ever is just a direct and simple answer to the question, but doesnt really do justice to the depth of the topic, the question is pointing at.

The problems arise with the question if plants do have emotions, can they feel grief for their out weeded neighbors? Does a mycelial network feel pain if one of its fruits is picked?
And if so, will we stop using and abusing them? Where is the border on how much compassion we can have for other beings, without loosing the game of evolution (of course at the moment we are far away from that and should set lower gears asap, the question is just moral theory)?

EDIT: Not directly related to the question, but as others have talked about similar things here.

The idea that plants have kind of "manufactured" animals and humans, whom have these highly compressed networks as brains + being able to change location (compared to plants with their more widely spaced out networks, locked to a certain position), and the implications those newly emerged species with their feet have for plants/fungi hasnt let go of me lately.

Unfortunately I dont know too much about plant physiology and why for example dopamine is produced in them, and what is its use in plants, but the connection between them producing neurotransmitter precursors which are then consumed by humans, and how these could potentially have shaped the architecture of our brain over the millenniums is very intriguing.

I really enjoy this theory, that we are designed by plants, as their highly evolved farmers and seed spreaders. Also with the notion and possibility of them communicating and teaching us with their "messenger molecules", in the hope of turning us more respectful towards them, the earth and ourselves.

Of course theres also the possibility, that plants and humans are designed by something else, and thats where the similiarities come from, in example the DNA, being in that theory a for fitness striving entity. Something, like the "selfish gene-theory" from dawkins. But I dont know too much about that...


 

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DmnStr8
#42 Posted : 5/11/2016 2:41:38 AM

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OP, I believe plants are conscious as is the entire planet earth. I believe all the planets hold some form of consciousness. A rose's consciousness could not be comprehended through the mind of a human. The rose's consciousness can not tell us what it is like to be a rose. But these plants do communicate with us.

90% of communication is non verbal. Just because a rose lacks the 10% doesn't mean it is not saying something. It is saying something to you and me. It is saying something to the bees. It opens and closes. A rose can stop you right in your tracks with its beauty. Take you into a memory with it's sweet scent. It can make you cry when given as a gift in the right moment.

The rose says so many things to us. It shows us so many things, as does anything in nature, if we look to how these plants are communicating. I have had my mind completely at joy staring at a rose. Thinking of nothing else. Becoming one with it in some way. Nature is amazing and is our greatest teacher. We are not separate from nature. We are part of it.

Just the other day my four year old daughter saw a rose. She stopped immediately and was very excited. "Daddy, Daddy!! Look!! It's so pretty!" We stared at the rose and she asked if she could talk to it. I told her yes. I said that plants can hear us and like when we talk to them.

She got very close to the rose and said "You are so beautiful! I love you sooo much!" Then she acted like she was listening to the flower, poising her ear towards it. She then said the rose talked to her. Interested I asked what it said. She stated to me that the flower said "I wish I could grow as tall as that tree. I want to be really big!!" She motioned way up in the sky and pointed at the tallest tree. "the flower also told me that it loves me very much!"

Imagination of a child, but she had a full on conversation with this little rose. Without it this whole odd conversation with vegetation would have never occurred. It was as if the rose stopped us to chat. Now I don't believe the flower actually whispered in my daughters ear but it is very interesting to think that maybe it did. Maybe the rose's only concern was how big it could grow? I like to think like a child too sometimes. Imagination is a wonderful thing.

I have spent a lot of time in nature. When you are by yourself in nature for hours and hours. Nature communicates. It can be a therapist. It can be a friend. Whispering to us. Just have to learn how to listen.


"Nature is not mute. It is man who is deaf" ~Terence Mckenna
"In the universe there is an immeasurable, indescribable force which shamans call intent, and absolutely everything that exists in the entire cosmos is attached to intent by a connecting link." ~Carlos Castaneda
 
roninsina
#43 Posted : 5/11/2016 4:44:08 AM

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I have really enjoyed all the perspectives here, but realize I never addressed the OP's original question. Though, in my defense, the thread title threw me off the scent a bit.

I think people appear not to care about the destruction of the Amazon and other such places because, like all living things, our primary motivation is self perpetuation/self replication. Most of us are just trying to get by; trying to take care of ourselves and maybe a family as well. These motivations are not intellectually based drives. We (most) do not realize that basic survival has been met and then cease to strive for basic survival (ie we don't stop with adequate food and shelter - we get "superior" food and shelter). Some are so overwhelmed by these motivations, that they don't even recognize the suffering of those within their own social groups in their quest for ensured survival. Most of us even feel the need to hoard resources - right in the face of widespread shortages for others. Something so foreign as plant life and possible plant sentience, doesn't elicit compassion, I think, in the population at large. It's way off the radar.

I suppose we all recognize that the world is slowly becoming aware of the symbiotic nature of life; that we may very well not survive without places like the Amazon. This is one drop in a cascade of data that we are fed - and every drop in the cascade is directed to us by someone's motivation for survival. I think it is a rare capacity to be able to maintain an awareness of survival on the higher order of magnitude of allowing something like rainforest survival to drive your actions. Though, obviously we all should.
"We dance round in a ring and suppose,
while the secret sits in the middle and knows." Robert Frost

 
entheogenic-gnosis
#44 Posted : 5/11/2016 2:09:19 PM
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hug46 wrote:
entheogenic-gnosis wrote:

Eben Alexander III is a neurosurgeon, in 2008 while in a meningitis-induced coma he reports having an NDE (it's a trip too, it could double for a DMT breakthrough)

Supposedly his brain was in a state where it was "brain-dead" to some degree, and should not have been able to produce consciousness, yet Dr. Alexander reports having intense conscious experiances...

Quote:
Eben Alexander III (born December 11, 1953) is an American neurosurgeon and the author of the book Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife, in which he describes his 2008 near-death experience and asserts that science can and will determine that the brain does not create consciousness and that consciousness survives bodily death. -Wikipedia



I remember reading about this guy and it was very interesting but the thing i don't understand about his experience was that, if he was conscious and aware non locally from his brain and he was seeeing all this stuff and having these experiences, how did he remember them? Arn't memories stored in the brain? Or is exterior consciousness able to store memories and bring them back to download into the hippocampus? But what do i know?
This guy is a neurosurgeon, he must be right mustn't he??

entheogenic-gnosis wrote:
After an intense DMT breakthrough in 2012 I reached the same conclusions, that consciousness is not a product of the physical body, I also experienced death and non-physical being...


Yes but surely you experienced these states of non physical being because of what DMT did to your brain. If you physically didn't have a brain and someone administered a breakthrough dose of DMT to you more than likely wouldn't have had the same experience or come to the same conclusions. Or any conclusions for that matter.


This is up for debate...

We know that if we damage the Hippocampus, New memory formation becomes impossible...

So, we know memory is connected with the brain...

...but I don't feel it always has to be...

With ebin Alexander, his brain was not able to receive input to form memories, his brain was essentially "dead", yet he reports these amazing conscious experiences...

It's not easily explainable, but for myself personally, my experiences have convinced me, and when I hear similar stories like ebin Alexander's, it just seems to confirm my initially feelings...Though scientifically I can't really make an argument.


Quote:
I now think of the, the brain as a receiver of the phenomenon of consciousness. That- I don't believe that, that consciousness is generated in the brain anymore than that television programs are made inside my TV. You know, the box is too small. -Terence mckenna


-eg
 
someblackguy
#45 Posted : 5/15/2016 8:50:39 AM

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"Do plants have consciousness?"

...Do you?

A man can assumes himself to conscious without much effort at all—the digital alarm clock assures him of the fact at precisely the same time every morning, as it has done reliably for years. It's a matter of routine. He might take the fact of his own consciousness for granted, rarely giving the matter a second's thought if any attention at all. Unlike his heart rate, his cholesterol count, and his tax return which all must be accounted for maintained though a regime of medical science, public and private entities, self help paperbacks, personal accountants, regular exercise and "therapy animals" all at great personal cost—his consciousness has thankfully always been a granted fact. Aside from a cup of coffee or an occasional cycle of antidepressant medication, consciousness is a pretty low-maintenance bodily function for him. The terms of his consciousness do not have to be renegotiated like the mobile phone plan he has to renew every two years, which is to say nothing of the constant firmware updates and equipment upgrades—it's much less hassle than owning a car in most cities. While he has to ration his mobile data or face steep overcharges, the consciousness he uses to process that data comes in seemingly unlimited abundance. In fact, he has the opposite problem—too much of it, too much consciousness accumulating on sidewalks, littering public thruways, evaporating into the atmosphere and contributing to climate change, waste product consciousness in quantities requiring whole industries around the process of its removal by alcohol intoxication, high-end bedding, hypnotic mass media, and other CNS depressants.

Yet for the majority of recorded history, and into modern times, humans were not automatically considered innately consciousness by mere virtue of their being humans. It has taken quite a bit of revolution and struggle for even the assignment of universal consciousness for _humans_ to catch on as a popular notion, and it's terms and treaties are still being worked out in some quarters. The case for plants seems far flung, at this rate of progress. Historically the assumption that humans, all humans even the brown humans, even the women humans, even the queer humans, are fully conscious beings has been a matter settled by wars and social upheaval, and endless bloodshed, protest and counter-protest rather than by the philosophical or scientific debate that takes place in academic settings. Perhaps It was never a matter of any one group being anatomically more or less human per se; Even the most detached members of the conscious gentry would likely not deny of their presumed lessers, that these creatures were nonetheless some ilk or breed of homo sapiens—it was not their humanity but their consciousness which was the issue in dispute.

Consciousness appears in the West as that quality which after the "fall of man" distinguishes human from animal, perhaps less controversially distinguishes animal from plant, but again becoming vague in the interval between plant and mineral. Far from an inborn human capacity, this presumed Cartesian self-knowledge had up until the past few decades been treated as the sole provenance of landed white males in the West, the "white man's burden" to some. Though it has its various counterparts elsewhere, rare is the social order that it has not directly informed by that of the European colonial adventure. This doctrine of the elect has been further refined over time, its recipients distinguished as a class in Post Enlightenment societies by their ability to vote, to testify in court, chose marriage partner, own property, run for public office, drive an automobile, invoke parental rights, to seek employment, operate heavy machinery... These functions of consciousness (called "rights" when they involve the interests of other such consciously endowed beings) are further reserved in these societies for individuals over the age of majority (18 in most of the US) who are assumed to have the capacity for autonomous decision making, for abstraction and inference, for human intuition up to and including some degree of critical self-awareness. If you want to drive a car, besides the vision test, these are the requirements. As far as I know such a standard standard has never seen application in plants, and farther up the food chain it has only been in modern times that animal rights and welfare have become issues of public awareness in the West.

Vegan literature (like that propaganda that is the currency of the anti-abortion movement) often relies on graphic, visual depictions of mistreatment and cruelty—animals not only brutally mutilated by hand and machine, but left to suffer on what seem like intentionally cruel kill floors. Suffering is a function of consciousness, some ancient schools of thought hold that suffering is the hallmark if not the primary function of the conscious mind. Like victimless crime, we cannot conceive of one without the other—necrophilia is distinguished from rape under the law, criminal intent is distinguished from from insanity, in US courts premeditated murder and manslaughter stand at bookends in a spectrum of different degrees of murder. Aside from the philosophical discussion as to what is possible though modern medical intervention, there are no such degrees of death for the victim to consider (dead is dead, there are no "degrees" of dead) but there exists a hierarchy of murder based solely on the perpetrator's intent—their consciousness of the consequences of their actions, what was in their mind at the time of the killing. This is made no plainer than the very sad case where a child commits a murder when they are well under the age for being considered for adult prosecution. The courts are often confounded at the task of finding fault and judges waver in their assignment of remedy in such tragic cases. What does society do with an eight year old child who fatally shoots his classmate with his brother's handgun. Where is Awareness? Intent? Consciousness?

...oh yeah "plants" (sorry I got way off topic)

Houseplants... livestock... companion animals (dogs, parakeets, goldfish)... gay people in most jurisdictions... ethnic minorities in post colonial societies... women and girls in some traditionalist theocracies... objects and non-living materials (human remains, teddy bears, religious idols, political effigies, all manner of dolls from voodoo to Barbie, various cultural fetish items, money, corporations, etc) ... all of these may or many not be allowed to assert their capacity as conscious, thinking, feeling beyond the automated maintenance of their vegetative and/or simple domestic functions; this is regardless of what level or quality of consciousness they or others might claim for them. As a resource the mere presumption of consciousness is one that is jealously conserved. The reasoning varies by culture and circumstance but its results tend towards a longstanding pattern: from the depopulation of the North American continent of its millions of indigenous inhabitants, to chattel slavery where humans were used as machines and treated as beasts of burden, to Jim Crow racial hygiene laws in early 20th century US, to Nazi antisemitic pseudoscience, all of these come to the same justification on the basis that while these creatures might be indisputably human, consciousness is not inborn quality extended to humans by nature, but rather is a quality extended by humans to humans... but plants?

A hallmark of medieval Western cosmology was the guiding principle that the universe and all it contained was organized into ontological hierarchy—a great "chain of being" extending from God to pope to king to lord to serf... to pheasant... to petunias[...] to bread mold[ ...] rocks, whatever. Embedded along with all creatures great and small in this was a system of power as mediated by the supply-side economists of consciousness. It is a premise of top-down consciousness, consciousness as "emergent" property rather than its being a quality perhaps more abundant in non-living matter, its presence growing ever weaker, rarer as organisms became more complex, other qualities coming to predominate their behavior and development, diverting metabolic resources elsewhere, obscuring all but the most primitive level of awareness—that of a particular, personal present. This food chain/supply-side/top-down consideration of consciousness, the undreaming eye atop the pyramid on the back of every US dollar note: "novus ordo seclorum", this is dark medicine, old. This may not be fully curable in the Western mind—even among its subculture born out of a rediscovery of plant gnosis. The advent of artificial intelligence in such a disparate world, where have-and-have-not have been culturally synonymous with think-and-think-not, raises the possibility that in the very near future it is foreseeable that some more advanced supercomputers might even wield more legal protections under the food chain of consciousness than some disadvantaged peoples do elsewhere on the globe.
Spellbreaking is the better part of alchemy, extraction, and the art of undoing—but a cocksure kind of lovingkindness, a clockwork clock, works time.

Nakhig lo shulun, Sharuku! Gorz nash!
“Where is your master? Where is he?”
Mig shâ zog... Undagush! Nakh
Atigat iuk no lighav wizard...
 
Ulim
#46 Posted : 5/23/2016 12:49:59 PM

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Squatting Bear wrote:
Plants can sense the light,smell chemicals,sense gravity and can even hear. Some plants like Mimosa pudica have been shown to have a long term memory and can even learn. When I drink ayahuasca I can sense their presence. Why is it that no one seems to care about the destruction of the amazon rainforest? Many People seem to care about animals but very few care about the plants and it doesn't make sense to me.

It really depends on your own definiton.
There are some pretty wierd experiments involving the "touch me not" mimosa or venus flytraps. For example they cant move their leaves or catch prey if they have been stunned with some
anesthetics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGLABm7jJ-Y

Or another phenomenon is crown shyness which is hard to explain because plants are with our understanding not able to communicate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_shyness

Does self awareness mean to you that it can communicate with others knowing that they are different beings then this might be true for you Rolling eyes
 
BundleflowerPower
#47 Posted : 5/24/2016 2:19:52 AM

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Shore they can communicate, both by releasing volatile compounds into air, and in a forest through symbiotic fungi which link the forest plants together.
 
Musiek
#48 Posted : 5/24/2016 4:54:42 AM

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Consciousness is that which is perceiving the words on this screen.

It defies conventional definition because it is not an object of our experience. Things, thoughts, feelings are all objective phenomena and therefore they can be defined in relation to other objective phenomena.

Consciousness cannot be objectified. It is that which perceives all objectification. Attempting to point at it will simply result in... pointing at more objective phenomena .

For me consciousness is an irreducible aspect of reality.

As for for plants... they exist in the same reality we do. So consciousness must be an irreducible aspect for them also.
The day is coming when a single carrot, freshly observed, will set off a revolution.
 
Spirit_Seeker
#49 Posted : 5/24/2016 6:01:44 AM

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woogyboogy wrote:

The problems arise with the question if plants do have emotions, can they feel grief for their out weeded neighbors? Does a mycelial network feel pain if one of its fruits is picked?
And if so, will we stop using and abusing them? Where is the border on how much compassion we can have for other beings, without loosing the game of evolution (of course at the moment we are far away from that and should set lower gears asap, the question is just moral theory)?



Hmmm
Are grief and pain necessary for consciousness?
If someone picked our sex organs from our body, yes that would be very painful, and the one picking had better feel some remorse, but that is because our organs are not designed to leave our body.
There are mushrooms that would prefer to grow alongside paved roads and cleared trails than off in the woods. It seems like they want to be picked by the animals walking by. Either they designed animals to spread their genetics around, or they designed themselves to be spread around by animals, but I would hardly imagine this as something that they do not anticipate.
It is that anticipation that proves to me they are conscious. I think the only reason we do not collectively agree on their conscious intentionality is simple because they move so slowly, we tend to see them as fixed objects, no more conscious that the light pole they grow around. But if we could see the entire lifespan of a great oak in 5 minutes, it would appear to behave much more like an animal in how it chooses where and how to develop.
On amazon video there is a documentary called, "Nature: What Plants Talk About"
Anyone interested in this topic should absolutely find this.

I am no one in particular

 
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