Are enlightened monks people who have broken through on endogenous DMT?

There are plenty of anecdotes on the web that DMT is endogenously released during the deepest of the deepest states of meditation.

Also, the Tibetan Buddhist monks that Terence McKenna gave DMT to confirmed that what they saw (during their non-endogenous DMT trips) were "the lesser lights of the bardo".

SWIM knows nothing is certain and proof of this or that is impossible regarding these matters, but SWIM would just like everyone's two cents. Is an "enlightened" monk someone who has broken through to the other side, or does it mean something else?

-swimwithlove♥

I don't think so.

DMT seems to me to be a short cut to certain levels of consciousness (quite deep ones possibly), and it gives you little control. Other medicines will do this too it seems, but each with their own flavour.

I think you could realise "enlightenment" on DMT, whatever that is - given that these meat bodies, brains and egos cannot comprehend or communicate the greater whole it is clearly not the human who attains enlightenment in any true sense, I think it is better to think of the process as awakening. All these paths lead to Rome, but some walk - others take the bus, but you will want at some point to have a good experience of the scenery.

SWIM? how is this possible when everyone is you.

....what does SWIM say? Why not tell us SWIM's 2 cent on the matter first ??

edit: ....have we met before?

I would guess that part of it is endogeneous DMT and 5MeoDMT, but also other factors, perhaps perfect balances of other things like pinoline, anandamide, dopamine, etc.

Considering anandamide was only discovered about 25 years ago, seems like there are probably more surprises out there waiting for us to discover that could be involved too.

Enlightenment probably produces a unique cocktail in each individual (even our neurons differ genetically from one to another within the same brain due to mutations, so each enlightenment is likely unique as a sum of parts both physically and neurochemically).

My recollection of the monk who took DMT was that he said something along the lines of it being as far as you can go into the bardo without actually dying... "but he also stated that it was about as far as one could go into the Bardo and still return to the physical plane afterward"

I would argue that having more than 1 dmt breakthrough would give you anything more in life. This depends on you, your capabilities of proceeding, your goals.(it depends on the whole existence that I dont yet understand...) Enlightenment is such a strange word also? Are you enlightened and when exactly?
Will enlightened people statistically beat themselves in things such as helping others, general health-care, open mindfulness? Maybe a hive-like intention huh..
I think for this you need a healthy, clear body and mind!
Is DMT the answer to that?
No, you are!
but no, honestly, its you+your environment scaled as (10-x)+(10-y)
or???

I think part of "enlightenment" is understanding, everything has a minimum of 2 parts that go from 1 to 10. When ever you think of something remember it's not fully one sided.
It isn't just red.
And if you think it's red.
Your next move will have some random uncalculated green in it.
Always watching how problem blooms, and try to fight the formula not the current numbers?
These are helpful. Problem solving.
But what is Enlightened?
no idea...


b

I like to think of it as enlightenING vs. enlightenED. One is a process, one is an event.

In some of my visionary states, I have sensed my consciousness as being at the bottom rung and bottom level of an infinitely high pyramid. My best guess is there is no end to the process.

But in terms of the individuals mentioned, however it happened exactly, they underwent, to use the words of Robert Anton Wilson in the book Prometheus Rising, "massive brain change".

To your list you might also add the prophet Mohammed, who basically took a trip through something like 7 heavens and came back.

As to the possible link with the pineal, if it is the pineal that produces it, then stress could indeed be a factor. The major neurochemical trigger of the pineal for production of things like melatonin is norepinephrine, basically a major stress catecholamine.

Interesting to note that chemically, melatonin - (one carbon and 2 oxygens) would have the same chemical formula as DMT, though probably not structure (I don't know enough organic chemistry but that is my assumption, and Dr. Steven Barker from the Spirit Molecule movie does not know any process for decarboxylizing melatonin so I defer to him).

However, have read some intriguing articles about how many mystical states seem to involve low CO2 blood levels... fasting in the desert would be one way to accomplish that. Not moving at all as in sleep paralysis would be another... respiratory alakalosis would be another as in Pranayama and holotropic breathing... the rabbit hole goes deep there IMO.

I won't say it's impossible that enlightenment involves some kind of endogenous psychedelic, but this is a claim that is almost impossible to test.

How do you know if someone becomes enlightened? If they do, how could you possible determine if it involved endogenous psychedelics?

Enlightenment? Define enlightenment first.

I have always taken some issue with monks and the supposed enlightened ones. Many of these monks are brought up in an enlightened way. Day in and day out they received training about enlightenment. Are they the enlightened ones? Or it is another form of enlightenment? What would the world look like if we all retreated to some cave for years?

Was Ghandi enlightened? Mother Teresa? How about Terrence McKenna or Timothy Leary? Who assigns this enlightenment? Is there some sort of scale? Was Anton Lavey enlightened? Are Christians or Buddhists more enlightened? Is your local shaman more enlightened?

More division is what I see. Enlightened this and enlightened that. The word is thrown around with wild abandon with other words like love. Define love. Define enlightenment.

In my opinion enlightenment is something that is felt. It has no words. There is nothing to compare it to. It has no reference point except it's opposite, un-enlightened. Light needs shadow. Shadow needs dark. Good needs evil. Enlightened needs un-enlightened. I see no need to assign value. Paraphrasing Alan Watts (he likely borrowed from Jung) he said something like: "The darkness within ourselves is not something that should be condemned. It is something that should be recognized as contributive to one's greatness and positive aspects. The same way that manure is contributive to the sweet smell of a rose." (going off memory)

Where is it? Where is the enlightenment? Chop wood, carry water. It hits you and then you are. What you do with it is your choice. How far you carry it is up to you. Just because you are not changing the world like Ghandi, does not make you any less enlightened. Just because you did not retreat into a cave for months or years does not make you less enlightened. The monk's enlightenment is not the foundation of enlightenment. It is not the benchmark for which we all should strive for.

DmnStr8 beautiple

DmnStr8 - A great response, needing little expansion, but I can't help but also respond.

I was sure I was feeling it at one point. I understood a complete oneness and felt it in everything, I still do sometimes - but holding that feeling can be hard work and is pretty detrimental to chopping wood and carrying water. Is it enlightenment? No.

I think Enlightenment is like "Up" or "Tomorrow", when you are there its not that any more, its just here or today and there is a new Up, a new Tomorrow. Some say that God, or All That Is is not complete or perfect, but also developing and getting there.

The most enlightened people, that I consider to be so, are those who seem to know or feel more about what I want to know or feel - they are my Gurus. Are they enlightened? I am pretty sure they didn't think so. I currently rank Alan Watts, Robert Munroe, Carl Jung, Seth amongst mine. Will I always agree with them? I don't know, but when I can get to where they are I will tell you. Will I back them up dogmatically? No - Question everything.

As for drugs, chemicals and brain processes, LOL thats like associating the destination with points on the road, sure they are things to see as you go - but don't think they are the cause or the only path. That is like listening to a preacher and thinking they are God, its easy to grab the "real" thing nearby and worship it, look beyond, look inside.

You took DMT and felt more enlightened, but "Enlightenment = DMT", is like saying I drove in a car and got closer to town, so "town = car".