^of course not,
its just what people do when they wanna buzz and lack grow skill / infrastructure.
to actually say it, would be bad taste. so...... people gloss that over.



^ IMO , a full new age shaman education includes grow arts.
stone age hunter gatherers, may not feel the need,
but i believe the modern shaman is as full spectra as possible.
there is no limit to the talents a shamanette can master.

if your shaman is not a grow master,
my deepest condolences.
it doesnt limit the skill range of the rest of us in any way.

i never encourage dependency.
i teach empowerment on all levels to my students.
i ask, "when im gone then what?"
then i tell them what,
thats when your mission BEGINS.

being an islander of the carribean,
i can surely attest that the severe coca addicts,
are indeed miserable for months after stopping.

cocaine as a sacrament?
lol .only at the club.

Where exactly do all these Peruvian ayahuasceros source their medicine?

How about these fancy treatment centers like Takiwasi?

Surely someone has to be tending a medicine garden to keep the kilos of vines and leaves brewing. If it's all coming from the ever shrinking Amazonian wilds, sooner or later this poaching is going to catch up with us (See: Iboga). Can we really call it healing if overcoming our own personal disturbances and dependencies comes at the expense of the greater ecosystem?

100% on board with Annie here, any curer who is not first and foremost a gardener (or perhaps a chemist) is not worth their salt. How could anyone ever hope to cultivate a relationship with the plant spirits, let alone master the medicine, when they are busy relying on someone else to produce, prepare, and practice the path for them?

Actually most curanderos do have their own medicinal garden, so they grow their own plants they need, although they will often buy plants like Caapi from those that harvest it.

If you know anything about curandero's having apprentices, you will understand that they are frequently passing on valuable knowledge onto the next generations to keep their traditions alive. How lucky we are today that the Spanish did not sucessfully stamp this culture out.

And yes, the Coca leaf is highly sacred and used in various ways. Btw, please try not to confuse one substance with another.



Good point, but in 2016 doesn't everyone have their own job?

Times have changed, many curanderos work for retreat owners, but even so many retreats do plant a lot of their own chakruna and dieta plants, etc, even Caapi, however demand often means buying from the suppliers.

It's no secret that many of the Ayahuasca vines are actually cultivated, probably by farmers working for retreats/curanderos. It won't run out because new ones are constantly being planted, however Stocks of 'wild Caapi' are diminishing from what were once plentiful, but perhaps your ideas of the duties of what a Curandero 'should do', are simply unrealistic because of the current market dynamics,( thus are the way things are now done in the Jungle?)

Imagine and suppose...

that Peru-shaman(ism) gets records after records of healing where western doctors have given up all hope, and that the word gets in the world big time, that it's no longer an alternative niche, but suppose every mainstream bureaucrat over the world starts thinking like "Well if my docs can't help me further then there's still Peru."

That would lead to an overly massive invasion of Peru (or SA) visitors and become a real game changer.

Even when the sourcing of plants gets straightened out, and enough retreats of good conduct take care of all those visitors, then the economical footprint of this changed game will be massive accordingly. Can you imagine that 50% of cancer patients start flying over there just to be sure or increase chances for their curing?

Having the same treatment at home regions? What time does it take for western laws to adapt to the situation, decriminalizing aya, knowing that the white-pills-predominance will block such adaptation at all costs? And if it's the shamans influence more than aya, then there's little chance you can ever get same treatment at home regions.

Just a thought experimentation
(I know it's silly to do much of suppose, suppose...
but we must beat that "The thread that never ends" somehow )

I thought that if someone wanted to actually really know about what Amazonian curandismo of today involved, then surely they would embrace understanding the spiritual POV of the natives and respective dietas, icaros, etc, so they could at least assimilate some real knowledge about the subject?

Surely only when someone actually understands properly that this is more than simply consuming Entheogens, that they could then make informed comments about the subject?


So called 'new age' shamanism should be based upon knowledge from the old ways that work, but i often wonder if they are, especially if some people refuse to have any interest in the old ways because of stubborn ego based ignorance, rather than anything else. (A healthy ego is a good thing because it protects good stuff, but an unhealthy ego means that reasonable judgement and awareness gets compromised.)

The point i am trying to get at is that untill the bare basics are properly understood, then a conversation about the topic, is pointless. You could take enormous amounts of Entheogens, read every book on the subject, but what has that got to do with actually dieting a teacher plant in secluded isolation, on a very bland simple diet? What has that got do do with having a ceremony with a trained Curandero?

...And, that is just relating to modern day Amazonain Curandismo. What about other Shamans, like in Siberia?

There is a lot that we can incorporate into our lives in the West, but if we refuse for whatever reason to at least try to understand/ give the old ways a 'real proper try', then our ignorant ego's will completely prevent us from experiencing any possible benefits. Our sheer ignorance is our own worse enemy!

There are too many 'thinkers', and 'ass-umers', but not enough do-ers.

Most of the curanderos I met in Peru have a friend that grows their medicines. The healers are usually busy full time with healing people, and just like in our society many times they will specialize jobs and work together as a community. They really value community and working together in South America - something I think we could learn better from them.

A lot of the curanderos who have their own gardens also have a friend or family member who does the gardening for them. They like to share work.

But of course - many shamans dont use plant medicines and dont need a garden for those things at all.... The Q'ero shamans I study with in Peru are considered the most traditional and most powerful group of shamans in the Andes - and they dont use any plant medicines. They practice the same medicine as the Inka did - which is offerings to the earth and mountains, prayer, condor feathers and altars. No plants needed. They do farm for food though.

Shamanism isnt just about psychedelic plants. I think most shamans dont actually use psychedelic plants at all actually. Seems like a lot of people here equate getting high with being a shaman and think they are the same thing.... But that's not really the case.


I think there is a lot of truth in what you say.

If someone wants to learn to be the best guitar player, they study the greats that came before them, and then they improvise and make things up from there. If you want to be the best doctor you study medicine before and then create new medicines from there. If you want to be a great chef you study the cooking of others and then improvise for there.... Seems like there is a pattern here!

I think the best way of moving forward is to first learn from the past.... You will get further faster, and most likely they tried many of the things that are new to you and already learned a lot that you can benefit from.

This is one reason why I think there are benefits to people studying these older traditions but then localizing them to where they live.

Of course there is the option of growing the same plants near home (there is lots of San Pedro growing all over USA now) but you can also apply the same principals learned from the traditional cultures to the plants growing by you at home. Diet local plants. Work with psilocybin or Amanita mushrooms. Learn practices that dont require plants ect....

To me, I think this is the future of shamanism - people living in modern culture learning the traditional ways and then taking the same principals and finding new ways to apply them at home in the modern world. I know many people doing this with success. I know that at least where I live there is actually a huge number of healers trained by traditional shamans but now living in and offering the same work in USA. This means that now people wont necessarily have to travel as far, although one sore point is that for people studying only the plant based traditions, many of these plants are illegal. This is actually one reason why I started working heavily with Amanita Muscaria, Salvia Divinorum, Mapacho (tobacco) and cannabis. All 4 are legal where I live, all 4 can be used in ceremony and have been used traditionally in ceremony, and all can be sourced right where I live (Salvia, cannabis and mapacho can all grow here easily and Amanitas are easily found in the wild, or the Amanita fleece can be grown indoors very easily).

And of course, for people really stuck on Ayahuasca who want a legal option - there is the option of using vine-only brews which are 100% legal where I live and still effective for healing (though not as exciting for the thrill seekers).

This guy went to "The Jungle" and ultimately became MASTER Shaman:
https://www.facebook.com/MaestroHamiltonSouther?ft[

Btw in 2014 someone drowned (!!) during one of his healing sessions with aya.

I would not ever take a session again with the persons I started my path with, as I find them fony-ish now a bit, but it was part of my path nonetheless, and dices got rollings and glad with the result now.

Wow, i never knew about that. Do you have a link please, Jees?

I saw his 2014 'metamorphosis' video to be highly informative, although i am not really a fan of his personality or icaros.


https://youtu.be/dz0XLVUq3WI

This was the thread on nexus about it, seems the link to the press article is no longer working:
aya retreat death in the U.S.

It looks like his emphasis has changed from jungle-aya toward a more philosophically approach of self-reprogramming techniques. I have no doubt that for some people it helps. https://hamiltonsouther.com/

I have no regrets to have met some fony-ish people on my course, even when 90 BS then 10% had value. I simply did not know of better guidance at a point. One starts somewhere, and then the path continues, luckily it does so.

I'm happy you are ok with that Jees.

Whatever, we are lucky with the internet which allows people to source as much information as possible before deciding. I'm sure many people would like to know which places you thought were b/s and which had value.

I had to express myself better, it was not like some were 100% okay and others were 0% okay.

I meant at a given person/course/workshop/meeting/etc I was only gaining by a minority (say for example 10%) of what was offered and I dumped like 90% of what was brought forth. But that is individual as I think of it like a store: nearly nobody has same shopping cart content.

Then again the label useful-part-or-not is only an analysis aftermath that does not cover everything. Much of influences are unseen and besides that the serendipity[1] escapes the direct reasoning. That's why the no regrets.

[1] “always making discoveries, by accidents and sagacity, of things which they were not in quest of”

Ah..So i'm assuming that you're referring to the now quite commonplace so called, 'Workshops'...

Yea, many centres incorporate this malarky into their programmes. Some offer talking about experiences, preaching their own spiritual perspectives on life, plus yoga, meditation, crystals, etc, etc.

It seems various centres will try to appeal to as broad an audience as possible by use of these 'additions'. Are these really like new age, 'ad mixtures'??

Hmmm....I have my own ideas about this Jees. What are your opinions about these things? How beneficial are all these 'add ons', or do you believe they are more of a sales gimmick?

It's both in my experience.

I stayed at one center that had 3 owners. A Shipibo shaman, a western doctor and a artist from Canada. All 3 were curanderos but the center also had a large space for making art (no classes or workshops - just space and materials), and also had an interest in science and medicine from a modern perspective. I felt like these were useful add-ons - art is a great way to explore yourself and to help integrate ceremonies, and understanding things from both a western and traditional view can be helpful for some.

I am not into yoga, but I dont see how that would hurt. Could be helpful for some. I am also not into meditation, but I see how that could be helpful for some.

Whether or not a workshop is helpful or gimmiky probably depends largely on the person teaching it, and the subject....

I am lucky enough that I have really liked every center or non-center type place I have ever stayed in Peru.... But I also did a lot of research and get really good referrals.

What a gimmick is to me could be very much necessary for another, or vise versa.

Or what a gimmick is to me now, could become a useful thing for me later, or vise versa. So: hard to say.

For me the most important thing is, if you pay, there must be a good fit between the person who offer service and you, a "click". No absolute need for "nice" (that would be a good plus though) but somehow I like to feel a resonance for lack of better word. In school my best teachers were not nice, but I felt respect and an urge to learn from them nonetheless. Hard to put in words.
Dunno if that is a prerequisite for others, we all differ.

You said not to fancy the icaro's and personality of Hamilton S., maybe that's what I'm referring to as an example of no-fitting.

I've been working with a single shaman, this man is from Peru, and doesn't speak fluent English or Spanish, I went to school with this man's grandson, on a school trip to canyon de chelle, Arizona, we were there to plant peach trees (long story), me and this individual participated in a peyote ceremony, after which we became close friends and I began working with his grandfather...

Other than this, all I have is books and the anecdotes of travelers.

Are the things this guy is telling me really that far off from what would be expected?

He is a great guy, he knows a ton about plants, and says he learned Entheogenic shamanism from his father and grandfather, he is a good teacher, and I like him, but it seems there's many more perspectives on shamanism (I've noticed extreme differences between Navajo and south American shamans, and have been told that even in Amazonian villages which are only miles apart shamanism can differ drastically...

I've been advised against going to any retreats or centers, which seems to be an area where you are knowledgeable, what's your opinion here? Is it worth it to explore these centers?
(Keep in mind I'm thorough in my research and not very susceptible to nonsense, so thorough research and finding a place where I would be comfortable is key)


-eg

You're right that beliefs and styles and perspectives can vary greatly. Each tribe has its own perspective, and then the members within that tribe also have unique perspectives and then there is also the mixing of perspectives that happens as these people all meet and influence each other....

I wouldnt say there is one right or wrong way to work with the medicine - there are many different possible ways to work with the medicine and many of them work great. There are so many potentials out there and I think the potentials grow more everyday....

People also have different personal experiences.... Some people visit the wrong center and get real turned off of all centers after that. Some people stay at a great center and love it. I know some people who cant stand dieting in villages because you have all these people asking you for cash or motorcycles and things going off - so they prefer the quiet retreat centers where they can focus on their inner journey and the medicine.

I also know some of the older shamans get jaded after a while.... Or sometimes people have a little racism clouding their views.... Or maybe competition with other shamans and retreat centers clouding their views. Many things can altar peoples perspectives.

I wouldnt say anything he says is wrong.... But maybe it is one perspective. Maybe other perspectives can be just as valid. I also can't say what would be best for you..... I think one of the most important things though is to find a guide that resonates with you and dont settle for someone who rubs you the wrong way. Feel good about the people you drink with.

So far I have had good experiences at centers, but I also did a lot of research beforehand to find a place that felt right. Almost felt like I was led there to tell you the truth.... The person I vibed with the least was a village shaman I met who I sought out because I had the idea in my head that village shamans would be better then the shamans at retreats.... In this case, I was wrong. The language barrier made things difficult and the village was very distracting for me. Also - this shaman didnt see as many clients as the retreat shamans and so had a little less experience, and her experience was more with indigenous type problems then western problems.

The most gifted shamans I met are also not necessarily the ones who taught me the most or helped me the most. I learned a lot from them, and I can tell how gifted and skilled they are.... But sometimes it is easier to learn from people you can relate to more. I think the two people who have taught me the most are actually a little less experienced then some other shamans I know, but they also understand me better and can explain things in a way I understand better. That helps a lot.

Thank you for the response it is much appreciated.

When I was a child my parents and their friends would go to "Rendezvous", this is where you live in tepees, dress in traditional native American clothing, and live by traditional ways, I guess the white people have a "mountain man" theme to it, but as my family's friends were native Americans that's the tradition I was around...I remember the shaman would come and smudge the children with sage, so I knew sage and smudging even though I was probably only 5, one night I saw two natives smoking a joint, I was too young to know what cannabis was and thought it smelled like sage, I asked "are you trying to smudge your insides?" They laughed...

my first experiance with an actual shaman when I was old enough to benefit from it was with a Navajo individual, I was at canyon de chelle, Arizona on the reservation, on a school trip, apparently when the white people first came through they chopped down all the peach trees as a means to starve the natives, so the school I was with does trips to replant peach trees. It's a hippie school, couches in all the classrooms, no grades, no dress codes, teachers are called by their first names, the first week if school you go on a camping trip, and so on. Any way on this trip to canyon de chelle I spent a good deal of time with the shaman and was asked to join in a peyote ceremony, I was the only person asked aside from my friend, who was a south American, his father and grandfather are from Peru, and claim to be fully indigenous without any Spanish mixed in, this individual was asked as well, I'm not sure what he said to the shaman, but all the other natives said it was very rare for outsiders to get to participate, they also told me that I was the first white person they had ever asked to participate, they kept calling me the Navajo words meaning "walking snow", I got teased quite a bit for being white, and I'm sure there is a good deal of resentment towards white people in that community, so I never took it personally.

Then the other individual who sat in, who I had gone to school with for two years, told me for the first time that his grandfather, and to some degree his father were Entheogenic shamans. It actually took quite a while before his grandfather would open up to me, and I'm sure that racism has some part of this, though I hear him refer to first world people of all races as "white". He is actually a fairly grumpy and reclusive individual, but then again so am I. I think he is a great teacher, but,

As you said, shamanism is very broad, and I probably should not limit myself to a single individual.

The Navajo shaman I sat in ceremony with never held open ceremonies, they never let people participate for money, this was a closed event to the community, and many people told me that outsider participation was extremely rare. This shaman did not like the term shaman and considered it somewhat offensive, and was not willing to give up very much knowledge to me, he also discouraged any shaman willing to practice for money or openly teach the secrets of their craft, he told me not to trust centers and claimed this was "charlatan pseudo-shamanism"

My south American friend is similar in that he only shamanizes for his community, and now that he has moved out of that community he is pretty much retired, but he is willing to share with and teach me, he also advises against centers, however I'm not sure how much he actually knows about recent centers, he is old, he does not watch television or use the internet and he is not overtly fond of social interaction, so I'm not sure he actually knows about the centers or retreats, rather it seems he is more opposed to the principle behind it.

I'm willing to give the centers a chance, well, at least to look into.them.and to.see if I can find one that I could learn from...I'm not so much interested in the tourist experiance, rather I would want tovwork and learn from people, preparing and consuming the medicine with them, and absorbing every bit of knowledge that I can. It seems the centers just want to give you a psychedelic experiance and then send you on your way, and that it's not really a situation where you get to know the shaman or his craft very well...

...but again, I know very little concerning centers and retreats, though I have been cautioned against them by several people...

I have large samples of nearly every shamanic/Entheogenic plant, I also have the knowledge to prepare and consume these things, and I do, this personal exploration is a huge aspect of my spiritual practice, however, I'm interested in the wisdom of others, the wisdom of those that have been doing this far longer than myself, the wisdom of those that have been doing this for generations is even more preferable...

Though in the end, I feel spirituality is a very personal thing, it's great to take wisdom and gnosis from others, but it all comes down to your personal understandings, growth, wisdom and connections to the non-physical. It's up to you to understand and define your own spiritual path and practice, and that this is not something that should be "put into the hands" of others.

I think it may be benneficial for me to explore these centers, if anything else just for the life experiance and the opportunity to learn about how these things work first hand.

-eg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiF-kA_xC30
Mckenna and metzner : shamanism before and beyond history

In the link above, On the topic of shamanism, which is very broad, terence mckenna and Ralph metzner touch on nearly every aspect they can within a 6 hour period.

I highly recommend this lecture, though it's fairly long, it's a complex and diverse topic, and I'm sure that even in this six hour lecture not everything is touched on, but nearly everything that could be covered by these individuals was, not only is it an educational and informative lecture it's also an entertaining listen.

---

I also must recomend

"The Shamanism Bible: The Definitive Guide to Shamanic Thought and Practice"
by John Matthews, published originally in 2014.

I've always been a fan of the classics when it comes to ethnobotany and shamanism , Richard Evans schultes, Gordon wasson, Jon ott, Christian Rätsch, Ralph metzner, terence and Denis mckenna, and so on...

But this book is great, it outlines shamanic practice throughout almost all historical periods and from almost every location and culture, I think the author did his best to illustrate the diverse and complex nature of the practices that fall under the term "shamanism".

For a recent publication on the topic, this book is great, I highly recommend it.

-eg

---

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dD72W57wEJc
Manifesting the mind: footprints of the shaman (2009; full film)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf9OPyjQECI
Terence mckenna briefly outlines shamanism in 15 minutes

---

-eg

The perspectives you describe are fairly common ones.... I dont necessarily agree with them, but I understand where they come from and why people would see things that way.

To me keeping your medicine from outsiders because of race or because they offered you money feels wrong (turn down the money if you want to, but not the person I say!). They probably need healing just as much as anyone else. If you really want to restrict who can partake in your ceremony, personally the only restriction that would maybe make sense to me is: only allow sick people to attend.

When someone is sick they dont care what their skin color is, or what yours is, and they dont care if they have to pay.... As long as they can afford. They just want healing, and I think it feels wrong to deny them that for superficial reasons. That is just me though - each person has to make their own choices about what is right for them/