^..subtle not lol...like i said, don't necessarily try this at home

i was in my late 20s..into 'warrior' 'shamanic' stuff haha
She (it)'s a power plant to be sure...

I can definitely echo some of this, from my limited experience. It was late '99 - early 2000 and my first time drinking with a maestro. Even though my companions had participated in several ceremonies with this maestro previously, he insisted the the first week of ceremonies would be vine only. To put the quantity of vine that goes into a traditional brew (at least, the ones I have seen) into perspective; there were several armloads of forearm-length vine (multiple kilos/pounds) that went into a huge cauldron to be simmered for many hours and then filtered and reduced to less than the volume of the plastic liter bottle, where it was kept.

The maestro had some fairly strict dietary recommendations: No processed sugars or grains, no dairy, no salt, no pork, etc. We were basically restricted to boiled or roasted yucca and fish. Even several weeks into this diet, the ceremonies gave me overwhelming nausea. My initial reaction to my companions' suggestions to participate in their observance of 'la purga' to relieve this, had come across as disrespectful to the plant, and downright wasteful. Nausea quickly became my ally. It became irrefutable to me, the nausea came on when I was having negative thoughts about myself or others - it was wonderful mind training.

I noticed little difference between the vine-only brew and the others, which had modest proportions of chacruna by Nexus standards. There was the standard parade of issues of self assessment. I would also fade in and out of total immersion but the visions were dreamlike or daydream like. They were deeply moving and powerfully psychologically transformative experiences.

We did find that the ambient jungle microbes were responsible for some of the nausea in the effervescent brews, and discovered that if we reboiled them, it helped reduce the worst of it. After a few weeks of doing this, my vision frustrated companions talked me into assisting them with raiding our teachers chacruna bushes, adding several magnitudes more chacruna to the brew, and reducing it by 75%. There was to be a special ceremony that night, where we were to be given Shipibo names. Needless to say, the ceremony ran rather long, but I did get named Roninsina that night. And we never saw that particular brew again .

On a dietary note; after several weeks dieting and vine heavy-brews, the return to "civilization" necessitated more prudence than we possessed. My buddy and I were in the Pucalpa airport and got tempted by the airport Dunkin Donuts. After gobbling down a few of the greasy, sweet treats, we were nearly convinced that we had been intentionally poisoned or had come down with some severe tropical influenza. Intense gastrointestinal pain and nausea, accompanied by a splitting headache. Diet can be important IMO, with regards to high dosage over sustained periods.

These effects might feel dreamlike, but they are nothing but dreams in their content see "The Antipodes Of The Mind: Charting the Phenomenology of the Ayahuasca Experience" by benny shanon, fantastic book!

I believe the reason so many people see ayahuasca as "oral DMT" is because they are really overdoing the DMT. If the ratio is out of whack, the DMT will dominate everything. Personally, i'm not a big fan of vine only brews, at last not taking a rather low dose of vine (~50g) . Just a pinch of DMT illuminates everything.

Not sure i would want to experience more "sideeffects" of caapi by upping the dose just because it is legal.

I don't think vine only ayahuasca has the same healing potential as vine with DMT, and I don't feel that the ceremonies with it would be what most people in the west are looking for. It is a highly visionary experience when you drink enough, but it has never been as profound or enlightening as when DMT or psilocybin is present, and the side effects are not conducive to most peoples lives outside of a vacation type thing. You have to pay attention to everything you eat at doses in the hundreds of grams of vine. If I eat one spice 24 hours after those types of doses it can send me vomiting. It is not what most people are looking for. Most people want vine plus DMT, even if in the jungle it is not what is necessarily preferred. I think we need different things in the west.

The tea is just always better with a little bit of tryptamines for myself.

Also, for a heavy harmala experience, I think rue is more visionary. Harmaline seems to be the more visionary of the beta carbolines. I would like to someday try around 10g of rue by itself. Even Claudio Naranjo felt this way about it, that harmaline was more like iboga where harmine was less of a psychedelic. More nausea and ataxia with harmaline, but that's what ya get I guess.

i didn't mention the physical side-effects of high dose vine, which can be intense to say the least, depending on one's system too

but also, like i said i was in late 20s 'warrior' 'shamanic' mode - so no it was not about 'fun', more cleansing and learning..i think meeting the vine at that level once is enough...it's like an initiation to it...but it takes a while to get 'clean' enough to withstand it without the most disruptive of physical side effects...and like i said don't try it at home..
after that the shamans i mentioned then introduced the chacruna, echoing roninsina (good post btw)

and yes, most people want some more colour in their visions, hence a tryptamine plant..and we get to the more common modern usage of the term 'ayahuasca' to mean a synergy of two plants (but calling it by the name of the vine), when traditionally, as travsha alludes to, the ayahuasca vine is partly used to 'study' a range of other plants..
also the physical healing of the vine could be seen in many cases as more crucial than any visions

what the McKenna brothers found i recall was that, in the deep mono-lingual amazonian brews (more 'traditional'), while the amount of caapi is 3 or more times the amount required to activate the trypramines, the dmt plant was kept stable at an amount corresponding to 20-30mg of dmt...never more..this is a very different kind of brew to what people drink usually today, and is seriously powerful..here the transformation is astonishing, with increasing 'realness'..being there, or changing form...transformations..
the cleansing action is, if not sometimes cathartic, also powerful..it's in a way deeper kind of thing than 'modern' aya ratio drink..i also think that higher dmt levels too, as oblighui says, may not be more helpful..i think the synergy concept of the drink (usually) is the most appropriate, which is a balance..
re visonary effects, there are differences (more noticeable this level) between different varieties of caapi here..

but the trade off is, without rigorous, nay severe diet, and working towards it progressively, and going through the intense continuous purging a few times, and have serious motivation to...it can't be tolerated..it can even be quite dangerous, not just unpleasant..and the kind of dietary/metabolic state that the kind of cleansing that seems to be needed is, as roninsina's story shows, and jamie, ridiculously over-sensitive to the modern average food available..

higher dose caapi (with or without chacruna) isn't for many, no doubt...but the indigenous very old tradition exists (by a thread), and indicates a more 'engaging', immersing and demanding kind of ayahuasca path of bygone tribal days..
and that vine's not subtle in that context..

It's not that hard to diet with modern foods. I do it all the time. Go get some trout and cod at the store (perfect fish for dieta), get some white and brown rice and potatoes, get some veggies and fruit, and you got more then enough eating options for a little while. I personally find that even with consecutive high doses of vine that chicken breast, eggs, lentils ect can also go good. I am sure most people would rather eat more foods and have oils and sugar and such, but that doesnt mean that good dieta foods are not easily available.

I do think most westerners would like more DMT in their brew though. We like excitement and the DMT brews are a bit more visual and exciting in that way. I do know a number of westerners though that prefer vine only brews and a number of them say the vine only brews are more insightful and healing for them. Many of these people I think are more sensitive - I have heard some claim that the visions are too distracting for them and they get more with the subtle brews. So I guess everyone is different.

As far as my limited experience goes,
(not enough redundant to generalize though)

the more direction "vine power":

the more I experience body load;
the feeling to become exhausted;
my energy level going down deep;
the more I get knocked out;
the more susceptible I become for heavy (dark) energies floating in the group;
the more I want silence and get away from it all;
the lesser a good time I have;
the faster I want the ceremony to be over;
etc...

I realize that:
aya is not about having a good time;
that it illustrates many of my in-build "resistance" talking out loud;
I get slapped for probably good reasons;
many of my negative connotations are result of insufficient dieta;
etc...

Yet:
the more direction "vine power" a brew goes, the more the importance of tobacco becomes, is my add here.
This was more than clearly shown after I had a (Mapacho) tobacco drink & purge tons of water to flush it out, in the morning. Game change. The ceremony of that following night, I was on top of it all, and literally none of my usual burdening top list above was present.

It became my first real good aya session where everything fitted perfectly, and it set the mark of how it is when in-tune with the vine. This was no coincidence, and it reflected all that I heard before between the combo aya - tobacco (but warded it of as shamanic romanticism). I did smoke mapacho before during ceremonies but that was not sufficient this way to get the effects of the drink-routine. I'd say that smoking is good to touch the tobacco effect unless maybe I suppose one smokes a ton of it but that is not my way of treating the lungs.

I'll skip detailing the tobacco drink session, but in effect tobacco simply turned the whole vine heavy aya experience into bliss. It also let me believe that not much of my burdening-list was really my "fault", I just lacked the right assistance, support, cleaning, tune-vibe-whatever, that tobacco could deliver.

I tend to believe that the drunken tobacco really changed (poisoned?) my nervous system in a hardware way with beneficial effect, like I got suddenly the ceremonial "balls" of a shaman
It lasted a while, but lost it again gradually, slowly. I think drinking the tobacco once a month should keep it up, maybe someone else with merits can say more on this?

---

PS: please don't get the quick idea to start drinking tobacco tea because it is simply dangerous, tobacco poisoning is real as people died from it in both drinking or enema form.

That's a very interesting experience! Tobacco really is the king. Perfect partner for Ayahuasca.

The Shipibo claim that they learned how to make Ayahuasca from tobacco actually. I even know some Ayahuasqueros who claim they cannot work with other plants without having tobacco to protect themselves and to use as offerings - they use tobacco for so many things and they all agree it is the best plant for protection.

I was able to connect with tobacco from smoking it, but it took me about a year of smoking somewhat often. I am still not a recreational or habitual smoker, but I use it in ceremony with other plants or on its own as a meditation aid. After I had been working with mapacho for a couple years I also started working with rapé snuff's which are mostly mapacho based - another great way to connect with tobacco is through your nose! (either rapé or rapote)

I havent done a tobacco purge yet but I am going to do one next weekend with my friend. We were supposed to do it yesterday but had to reschedule.... Talked to one person recently who told me they had been trying for years to heal depression with Ayahuasca, but didnt have any luck till they tried a tobacco purge. Tobacco purged a spirit out of him that had been causing his depression and he hasnt had depression since....

I am also thinking of dieting tobacco soon. Hoping to deepen my connection with this plant because it has so much to offer. Originally I was going to try a 3 month apprenticeship to a tobaquero this summer but I think I have to put that off another year, so now I am considering just doing my own week long dieta with mapacho in the meantime... We will see! Maybe the tobacco purge this weekend will get the ball rolling on that.... (dieting mapacho involves doing a daily tobacco purge)

Interesting.

travsha, in your opinion, for a tobacco purge, what amount of tobacco would be good for a beginner, in ordering to build up healthy tolerance to the nicotine without any negative, harsh side-effects? Just thinking back to the reports of deaths from those overly sensitive to it.

Better to be safe than sorry... smoking tobacco has always made me fuzzy-minded, so I have been avoiding it, but perhaps that was the 1000 or so horrible chemicals put in industrial tobacco. Mapacho might not have the mind-wrecking effect.

For doing a tobacco purge even beginners would use the same amount of tobacco - you need enough to make your purge.

The purge is generally safe unless you already have health issues. I read up on the 2 cases where someone died (very low number of deaths considering how many people do these) and it seemed that at least one and maybe both had compromised organs beforehand. So if you have a weak heart or liver, maybe better to skip the purge unless you have someone CPR trained nearby. Generally it is safe though and tobacco purges are pretty routine.

BTW - neither of the deaths was caused by nicotine poisoning. If I remember correctly, they were both caused by complications from puking too hard for their body to handle (or perhaps one of them couldnt puke? Its been a while since I read the details).

If you do want to get more used to tobacco.... You could start with smoking pure mapacho (which is totally different then other tobacco - it is lacking the 1000+ chemical additives!). You can also start with snuffing rape' or rapote' - rape' you would have to buy or learn how to make.... Probably easier to buy online (some online shops sell rape' and it is really nice - I usually do it a couple times a week). Rapote' can be made with regular mapacho similar to how you prepare a tobacco purge - you soak some tobacco in water for a few hours or overnight, and then you snuff that water off of a spoon (you make this version with less water then the purge though so it is a little thicker).

The snuffs are really great. Bring cleansing, grounding, focus, awareness, sensitivity.... Also cleanses out mucous which is really great for your health.

Generally the way I have seen tobacco purges made is you take one cigarette of mapacho and soak the leaves in room temp water overnight - then you strain out the leaves, drink the juice, wait a few minutes and then chug 2 liters of water to help induce purging. It can be very powerful. To diet mapacho you would do this daily for a week or longer while eating a strict diet and following the usually dieta guidelines (no sex or touching, no media ect). I have heard this is a plant you especially want to follow the guidelines close when dieting....

This is a bit the pattern I've witnessed IIRC:
* 0.5 liter of luke warm tobacco water drinking (it was 1.5 to 2 white-paper mapacho sigs);
* keep it in as long as possible, allow the purge to come out;
* then 3 liter of luke warm water drinking in mugs, purge in between;
* keep water drinking/purging till everything that comes out is as clear as water;
* if the initial purge doesn't start after 5 minutes, the water cups get some Agua de Florida in it as a purge promoter.

I think it is not good for people to just drink tobacco water and see what happens. I've seen people having trouble getting it out, and some guidance from inclined people would really be a good idea when that happens. The "trip" will seriously disorient one at astronomic levels of sickness feelings. No good idea to have no one stand by when something unforeseen happens then.

I've posted that pattern above but is NOT my advise to actually perform in a self study way, it is just one example, indicative only, it was under guidance.
Second, it's not the drinking alone, its a frame much more necessary to follow than just some shamanic showcase, here with tobacco you must comply for your own literal sake, like on empty stomach, no eating afterwards, really hardware concerns.

If there ever comes a more serious tobacco drinking guide, it should be a dedicated thread IMHO. Having some lines in a post is not enough me thinks. I would not like to take the responsibility for such, as you never know how people take things to hearth and I feel not expert enough. I don't want to make it sound complicated, but any directions should be very complete, or else not called How-To.

My suggestion: do NOT do it on your own behalf unless you have already a fair ground of experience with it under tobacco drinking guidance.

Safety first
Thoughts travsha?