Imagine you had to make one liter of ayahuasca
what plants would you use, in wich quantities, to make a perfect brew? (please dont copy paste recipes from the internet, what im curious about is the personal preferences of the experienced users here)
if you add other plants besides caapi/chali/chacruna (like alicia/muricata/bobinsana etc) please tell what you feel it adds to the experience, or what properties it adds to the brew.

I dont know what would be my perfect brew, but I can mention my favorite brew I drank so far. I dont have plant amounts though - it was made by a friend in Peru.

All fresh ingredients. Ayahuasca, chacruna, tchai, coca and pinot blanco.

Tchai is a small cactus the Shipibo use which has small amounts of mescaline. All 3 plants are incredibly "light" or heavenly plants that bring in lots of love and light type energy... But they are not overpowering - you can still go deep into the dark stuff for sure.

I really liked these admixtures - they made a very pleasant, helpful and noticeable effect on the brew.

I also really like toe' or datura with Ayahuasca, but I havent had that mixed with the above plants.... I have a feeling I would be into it though. I have a really great relationship with datura and it really adds some power to the tea.

Fresh chaliponga as admixture takes Ayahuasca to the next level. Emotional intensity, visionary intensity, and overall experience is taken to a very serious place.

But perfect brew? Is there such a thing? I don't think there is such a thing. All brews are tools. Use the right tool for the job.

come on guys, "perfect" as a subjective concept for your favorites, or as what works best

the original purpose of this thread was to get compairsons of quantities of material used, and then i used the chance to also get to know the personal taste of the nexians.

It is the first time im making a brew outside of the forest, with dried material and such a small quantity of materials, and wanted to get some opinions on that.

So im gonna share here the recipy i will use:

1,5 kg of Caapi var. Caupiri (or called tuku-uni by the yawanawa, the one with big knots)
1 kg of muricata red vine
200g of a called Yagé Tigre from colombia
100g of black Alicia
1,2kg of Chacruna, wich 200g are freshly harvested, but allready dry
500g of Chaliponga
whatever quantity i will have avaliable of Bobinsana

the intention is to concentrate all this in a liter, or less, i really would like to make it really thick, but with this amount of material i doubt that i get such a 1 liter brew, probably would end up with like 200 ml to make something really honey like

Would it still be considered an analogue if I use banisteriopsis caapi vine as the "force" and acacia confusa rootbark as the "light"? (As well as a few other admixtures)

...seeing as how the only thing traditional about this brew was the use of caapi vine, I was not sure if it would be appropriate to post it here.

(...I can also speak to the power of analogue brews, and while most will not accept them as true ayahuasca, they are tools of equal power...)

-eg

well, i think its time that we all clear some concepts. ive been calling other mixtures as analogues to facilitate comunication, but truth is sirian rue+acacia has an history and energy of its own, and some people call it somakecia (not sure if its the right spelling, just writing as i heard it) but is good to separate them as distinct universes instead of calling analogues to all other dmt+maoi mixes.

there are some northeast brasilian indigenous that use jurema and caapi together, and they give it a specific name also, and im a real fan of it, i know its a really powerful medicine.

so even if its not for the purpose of this thread im also interested in what you have to share about this particular mix (caapi+acacia). i usually brew acacia or jurema separatly and use it more ate the end of a ayahuasca session, right after the 3rd cup of aya. please share proportions of ingredients, and how you use it, and any personal thoughts of what these specific energies add to the experience. thank you

and thank you all for the sharing

I agree. Chaliponga, even if it ls dried leaf, seems to be on an entirely different level than any other light plant I've used.5 or 7 g of it is quite an experience.

I haven't tried all the sorts of caapi yet so idk which would be perfect with it.

Wikipedia's chaliponga alkaloid content information:



What was the consensus regarding the alkaloids being produced by chaliponga?

According to Wikipedia, 5-hydroxy-dimethyltryptamine, 5-methoxy-dimethyltryptamine, and N-methyltetrahydro-beta-carboline are components of chaliponga

I can see the 5-meo-dmt as having a noticeable effect...

In the case below, a man died from homebrew ayahuasca containing 5-meo-DMT...

I wonder what plants this man used?

His 5-meo-DMT levels were high ( 1.88 mg/L )




I've been hesitant to try chaliponga as I don't want to ingest 5-meo-DMT, now, I know there was debate as to whether chaliponga even produced 5-meo-DMT, and I'm still not certain what the final consensus there was...

-eg

(These recipes are scaled for a single person, and can be scaled up if needed, though the quantities are on the high end, so two may be able to split a brew)

°basic yagé recipe

·54g powder banisteriopsis caapi (I generally use "mckenna red caapi" or "cielo caapi" ; picture attached)

·18g powdered acacia confusa rootbark (Hawaiian)

·1.5L H2O (approximate)

Powder Caapi is placed in glass dish, water is added, the mixture is then brought to a medium rolling boil, held there for about 3 hours, then is filtered, the filtrate is saved in a clean dish and set aside and the filter-cake is returned to the boiling pot where fresh water is added. This is done a total of three times.

The same procedure is preformed with the ACRB, only the boil is much lower, the mixture is brought to a gentle, low, boil, held there for around 3 hours, filtered, the filtrate is set aside in a clean dish, the filtercake is returned to the boiling pot where fresh water is added. This is done a total of 3 times.

Next the combined caapi filtrates are mixed with the combined ACRB filtrates in a clean Pyrex dish, and are reduced to the desired amount.

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°Kaya-huasca (ratios are per person)

·4g peganum harmala seeds
·18g acacia confusa rootbark
·7-12g cannabis extract
·1L h2o (approximate)

The powdered ACRB and powdered PHS are combined in a Pyrex dish, water is added, and the mixture is brought to a very low but rolling boil and held there for 3 hours, at which point the mixture is filtered, the filtrates is set aside in a clean dish, the filter-cake is then returned to the initial boiling pot where fresh water is added. This is preformed a total of 3 times.
As the 3 combined filtrates are being reduced at low heat, the bubble hash is added. (THC really isn't water soluble, however, powdered cold water THC extract (bubble hash) goes into a mixture extremely well) (I've also been experimenting with BHO, PHO, CO2 extracts as well as "charas" made from live plants, I have not perfected the THC admixture, but have had the best success by adding bubble hash during the final reduction phase)

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I've also been working with trichocereus cacti admixtures...as well as THC and trichocereus cacti admixtures...

My boiling process is generally the same on all the recipes, 3x3 hour boils, then reduction, though it seems that each brew demands specific attention and timing, and the 3x3 boils is just a general guideline.

So...

·60g trichocereus bridgesii (boiled separately in traditional cimora fashion)
·10g acacia confusa rootbark
·4g peganum harmala seeds
·7-12g cannabis extract

The cannabis extract is added during the final reduction phase.
The trichocereus brew is mixed in after the final reduction of the ACRB/THC/PHS.

-eg

It definitely contains 5-meo-dmt by feel and experience. There is more when fresh, less with age, and forget it after a few weeks (nothing left). Fresh is what it is about.




I believe it.

I tried adding a small amount to a larger batch of ACRB + SR and it kicked my butt. This is seriously intense stuff.

I explored it sensibly, shared it with experienced, brave souls, and then decided it wasn't worth the trouble. A couple of times I had headaches that made me paranoid of bad things happening. I had to stop and question why it was I felt inclined to pursue this in the first place.

Honestly, I think it was this brew that taught me to chill out and go easy in general.

While I want to try chaliponga, I'm hesitant, 5-meo-DMT isn't a compound I want to ingest, though I'll admit my fears are based only off of anecdotal and published evidence.

5-meo-DMT is more potent than DMT (meaning a lower dose is required), and has its own individual pharmocological profile. It also carries its own set of risks, I have heard countless stories of people "turning purple" and their breathing stops, I've also heard stories of individuals who took high dose 5-meo-DMT and were unable to return to baseline for weeks after, often requiring mental health hospitalization.


Shulgin gives an example in TIHKAL which is consistent with the anecdotes I have heard:

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I remember in one of mckenna' s lectures or books, of a story he told while in south America while working with a shaman, mckenna was able to identify a Diplopterys cabrerana plant growing near the camp, when mckenna inquired about it the shaman dismissed it, he called it "dog food" and said it "was unfit for human consumption"

Perhaps the shaman was aware of the potential risks involved with consuming 5-meo-DMT, or perhaps he didn't want drugged up gringos running amuck losing their heads...

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I wish they would have listed what plants were used by the individual who died from 5-meo-DMT in his homebrew ayahuasca, his levels of DMT and beta-carbolines were reasonable, but his 5-meo-DMT was high

( N,N-dimethyltryptamine (0.02 mg/L), 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine (1.88 mg/L), tetrahydroharmine (0.38 mg/L), harmaline (0.07 mg/L), and harmine (0.17 mg/L) )

erowid s ayahuasca deaths

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I also am not one to go around giving others these things, which is why all my recipes are single dose. I believe in education and responsible consumption, and in the case of chaliponga, my "explorers heart" wants to investigate the admixture, though my "rational mind" tells me it's a risk.

Thank you for your response,

-eg

It's always a risk to some degree. Btw, I've read in more than one book than if you look at all of groups in the Amazon, who use ayahuasca, chaliponga is more widespread than chacruna. I'm sure if there was that much risk, they'd use chacruna only.
People try all sorts of plants in their brews, why not one of the traditional ones?

It was probably hypertensive crisis that did him in, which was likely a dietary issue.

One of the things that makes me cringe most is witnessing first hand how people eat, and then convince themselves they ate the right things. I wish this was easily shared with more people, but I honestly can't trust people to follow a diet for a few days. Most people are terrible about diet.



I heard a story about a chaliponga brew that gives me shivers. The story involves a group ceremony, and in this ceremony they drink relatively small amounts of brew every 90 minutes, and the ceremony goes from dusk til dawn. This was a group of about 10 people, run by a husband and wife. They had been doing this with Aya for a long time, and had only been working with chali for a short while. One night the ceremony was coming to a close, everybody was exhausted from the long night, but one guy wanted to have another cup. He asked for a big one, and the shaman gave it to him, and he drank a smaller amount again with him. It was only another 15 minutes or so before this guy snapped. He got rigid, beady-eyed, and then verbally challenged the shaman. He said "YOU!!! I know who you are, and what you have done!" (Note that everybody else was now 95% back to baseline, including the shaman's wife). This guy wasn't backing down, and the shaman had to maintain the space, which he did. He held up one hand to the defiant guy that snapped in an unusual way as if to pause him, then almost with the other eye and hand motioned to the group that the ceremony was over, and to get out now, as if their lives might depend on it. Then as they are leaving, this guy leaps up and punches the shaman in the face, almost knocking him. The shaman was able to push him back and make space again. The enraged guy then began punching the concrete walls of the adobe hut they were in. He really messed up his hands, broken fingers, blood everywhere... He collapsed to the ground and sat there, clearly stunned at what had just transpired. The shaman guarded the only doorway, where him and his wife played guiding music. This man came back to baseline and had no explanation for his own behavior. He cried and cried, and all he could say was how sorry he was, and he didn't know what came over him.

Some people do react badly to scary high doses of this stuff. Some people are packed liked high explosives, and for them this seems to be a detonator. This shaman had never seen anything like this with Aya, nor heard of anything like it... The chali brew seemed to be a trigger for this guy--maybe it was the guy, or maybe it was the brew, or a combination. It doesn't matter. It happened.

The only reason why I am typing up this terrible story is as a warning to others: please take this stuff seriously. It is false belief to think it can't go terribly wrong. It can, it has, and it will again.

There are several traditional admixture plants which, for one reason or another, I will not use.

Every person has their own unique biochemistry and mental baseline, as well as their own unique set of goals and intentions, as well as their own unique level of risk which their willing to take for their practice, for these reasons every ayahuasquero will have his own personal pantheon of plant tools and teachers.

I'm always up for exploring new plant pathways to the magic of the DMT/MAOI combination, but I do so with the highest degree of mindfulness, responsibility, respect and care. I don't feel the places your granted access to through these brews are meant to be treaded through carelessly or haphazardly.

5-meo-DMT and 5-ho-DMT are compounds I generally try to avoid when considering a plants potential as an admixture, even if the plant has a history of human use.

I may eventually explore chaliponga, but I doubt I will ever incorporate it into my practice. I'm only considering exploration of chaliponga because of its widespread traditional use and ethnobotanical history, but I'm not in a hurry.

...I'm going to wait and see how I feel about it after I've tried it, it may actually be an amazing tool, but when using it it seems important to remain mindful of the additional alkaloids it's brining into the brew, and their potential dangers.

-eg

That was actually a really good read, thank you for posting it.

It's important to have a healthy respect for these things.

-eg

wasnt it the last concensus in the nexus that chaliponga doesnt has 5-meo after all? i mean, im well aware of the risks of 5-meo+maoi, but never heard about no-one having problems (i mean real problems) from chali only. i have seen a lot of people doing weird stuff during cerimonies, no matter what brew was being used, i think you must be more carefull with whom you drink with, as the ingredients per se, and remember that chali is more then a 5-meo source, or that chacruna is more then a dmt source.

I was uncertain as to whether consensus had ever been reached regarding the 5-meo-DMT in Diplopterys cabrerana...

Wikipedia says:



I'm probably overthinking all this, though I feel it's safer to stick with what I know, at least until some things have been confirmed...

I'm not trying to say anything bad about chaliponga, or 5-meo-DMT, I just have reservations regarding these things.

-eg

I much prefer chaliponga to chacruna. I don't think there is any inherent danger in it over using psychotria, aside from the increased potency. It's a warmer more fuzzy experience for me. I never really got on well with chacruna. It either did nothing or made me feel pretty sick.

I agree about psychotoria, it's either failed or generated nausea for me, I assumed this was because I was ordering the leaf online, and perhaps it was low quality, or old, or whatever...

I use acacia confusa rootbark almost exclusively, there's some NMT and trace beta-carbolines, but overall I find it to be reliable and effective, though, it is seemingly unique from mimosa brews, the caapi effects this as well, I find the "banisteriopsis colorada-mckenna red" from phytoextractum is particularly interesting, PHS will also bring a subtle unique flavor to the experiance...

Every plant seems to bring its own personality into the mix...

My brews seem to produce wildly different effects, even when consumed from the exact same batch...sometimes a brew will fail, while off the same batch a week later you end up in a full +++ (shulgin scale), I've seen group sessions where some individuals felt nearly nothing, while others had never been more psychedelically stoned...

Again, I'm very curious about chaliponga, and my opinions against it should not matter as I have never explored it, I just feel I must be cautious, and educated in my decisions. Chaliponga users say "it's a great tool" I think mckenna even had good things to say even after this incident

Now would be a good time for chaliponga users to speak their minds, I find speaking directly to the proponents of a plant teacher will give you the best image of the plant as well as its limits and parameters...

-eg

Hardly a consensus, but nexus analysis found no 5-MEO-DMT present in one sample that was reported to be very different in effect from other DMT containing admixture plants. For what that is worth.