Hi there, Nexians.

(Sorry about the huge post. I'm a bit OCD about my research. Just skip the main text if you have any good info to share on substantiated bio-assays of Marah fabaceus.)

As I'm sure many of you have long been aware, California manroot / wild cucumber (Marah fabaceus) is one of those plants whose names have been floating around the Internet for a long time, on lists of obscure, purported hallucinogens. The main source for this seems to be an old article in the Entheogen Review:

http://www.entheogenrevi...urces/Sample%20Issue.pdf

It always frustrates me to see these kinds of allegations repeated and discussed, but never investigated, especially since it happens to be a common weed in my local area. (I'm quite confident of my ID, based on range and features of the leaves, flowers, fruits and seeds - viz. http://www.anexaminedlife.net/manroot/) I've been searching for any first-hand assay reports that might be hiding out there, but haven't found anything remotely informative.

Anyway... since we've had such wet winter in Cali this year, the manroot vines are already growing vigorously, and should set a strong crop of fruit. I'm tempted to conduct a (very cautious) personal bio-assay this season, but figured I should at least check in here first, to get some feedback on that idea. Has this question already been settled? Should I be more concerned about potential toxicity than I am?

I have been doing research on cucurbit toxins. I even bought access to a scholarly article on the ethnobotanical uses of M. macrocarpus. The primary toxic principle in Marah roots and foliage are cucurbitacins, which are notably bitter and purgative. According to my source, "The extreme bitterness of the plant usually prevents a toxic dose from being ingested; however, a death as a result of the consumption of the seeds of M. oreganus has been reported (Hugelmeyer et al. 1987)." Unfortunately, I can't find the text of the source article for this fatality incident, and no further information is given. (This is the full reference: Hugelmeyer, C.D., T.S. Putnam, B.T. Burton, P. Mueggler, and G. Constantine. 1987. Fatal poisoning due to ingestion of wild cucumber seed tea. Veterinary and Human Toxicology 29:462–463.)

The only other new tidbit I found in the article is this: "The seeds (except the seed coats) appear to lack tannins but test positive for alkaloids (Earle and Jones 1962)." Again, I can't find a copy of the source (full reference: Earle, F.R. and Q. Jones. 1962. Analysis of seed samples from 113 plant families. Economic Botany 16:221–250.), but it does give a tiny ray of hope that the seeds might contain something psychoactive. As I'm seeing the matter, Marah spp. can't be too terribly dangerous, because they have a long history of internal use as a laxative. I'll start with very small doses, and stop right away if I get bad diarrhea. That should be a reasonable approach, right?

I've already done a bit of preliminary assay work: Last year, I ID'ed the plants late in the fruiting season, and could only acquire mature seeds. (Supposedly, they should be used when not quite ripe.) Starting with very tiny doses, I eventually worked all the way up to 11 seeds (10g), without any significant effects, positive or negative. So... at least that seems to indicate they aren't terribly toxic, at least when aged.

I've also sampled the root, and feel I can totally reject that report about someone brewing a hallucinogenic "tea" from it. The first, tiny dose I assayed did nothing but give me some rather severe dyspepsia and diarrhea! I was expecting that as a possibility, but even so, the effect was more potent than I'd expected. The soapy glucosides that are likely responsible are readily water-soluble, and even extensive boiling doesn't denature them, so there doesn't seem to be any way the root could possibly be prepared as a "tea", unless this psychonaut enjoyed thorough bowel purges...

Okay, any thoughts? If this has already been tested, I might as well not try to reinvent the wheel. I'd just like to see this cleared up, to confirm or refute the "possible hallucinogen" claims. This isn't some exotic plant from the remote hinterland of Africa, or whatnot, so it's silly that the allegation has been circulating this long without someone following up on it. I figured at least some dumb kids looking for a "legal high" would have tried it by now. Thanks for any feedback!

Hey friend,

I'm familiar with Marah as a plant, as I see it often on my local hikes. I would advise against messing with it. I would try running at least a TLC first to see if there is any probable spot for a given alkaloid. I think it's unwise to ingest something that already has known toxic compounds, unless you had some way of separating these components out.

I had personally been familiar with Marah for its saponin content. As you note in your post, there doesn't seem to be any way to get rid of those in a crude bioassay, along with the other toxic curcubin compounds. I wonder if people eating it had to do with mistaking them for jimson weed pods? T

Why not check out your local Acacias? They run rampant invading CA roadsides/parks/canyons/landscaping. Acacias are the real weeds , Marah is a native.

Sorry to jump on you, I suppose you're asking if I had any info to contribute, and you seem aware of the risks. My personal familiarity with Marah is as a cool plant, it's giant tubers, and its use for saponins if I'm ever in a survival situation. There could be other papers that have characterized the ambiguous alkaloids.

Thanks for the reply. To be honest, I'm not quite ready to be initiated to DMT itself right now. too much psychological baggage to work through. Perhaps I'm on the wrong forum...

The saponins would certainly be useful for poisoning fish. I'm only considering assaying the unripe seeds because the ripe ones aren't very bitter at all, and didn't give be the runs, so I'm thinking they must not have a significant cucurbitacin content. It does seem rather far-fetched that they could have any entheogenic effects, though. The article I read only confirmed medicinal uses, against baldness, pain and constipation. It's quite likely that they were confused with Datura pods. I just want to prove it, once and for all. That old Entheogen Review report does view it as highly suspicious, but the 4 large Marah seeds are so different from the hundreds of tiny Datura seeds, it seems strange that even kids would be easily confused, unless they only described the fruits and not their contents.

I'm looking into this stuff myself, possibly I may include it in my entheogen garden. I just heard an anecdote about a local tripper using the flowers of the plant.