Hi y'all,

Wondering if any peeps here have any insight on this...I have recently returned from a trip to Peru, where among many other experiences, I had three ayahuasca experiences with a shaman I was already acquainted with. The brew was a strong fusion of cielo ayahuasca/Chaliponga/mapacho and seemed to produce spectacular results for the majority of people. I had three ceremonies within a week, and had a second serving in both the second and third ceremonies. I'm no spring chicken to ayahuasca, and have had around 25 ceremonies over the last 10 years or so, not including a few mostly botched homebrews and more successful pharma sessions. I had prepared for this experience, taking care of diet and life style for some weeks prior, and meditating daily.

All of my ayahuasca sessions seem to be a variation on the same theme...they are always personal experiences, always chaotic and always revolve around me and my experiences...I never connect with anything outside of myself as others report. I appreciate a lot of spiritual approaches emphasise the importance of looking within, that all the answers lie in there, so perhaps the desire to connect with something seemingly transpersonal is a moot point. At the retreat I was at, the shaman takes quite a Christian view of God and things that didn't really resonate with me, and he encouraged such views among the other people training with him. Some of the people there claimed experiences with God, Satan and angels, and to me this seemed like it was the ayahuasca projecting their beliefs, or what they had been nudged into believing, and I do believe this is a component of the ayahuasca experience, acting as a mirror in some respects. Others, including people close to me I know well, were connecting with spirits, entities, the spiritual essences of the plants, and seemingly visiting other dimensions of reality. I never get any of this. In comparison, my ayahuasca experiences are much more boring affairs. If I'm lucky, I well receive some kind of vague insight regarding life issues. If I'm not, there will not be any meaningful content to the experience I can perceive. Visually I only ever experience moving fractal geometric patterning, woven onto a tapestry of darkness, in various shades of light (I don't perceive much in the way of colours in comparison to other psychedelics). Even my third and final session, which was by far the strongest, was a roller-coaster and a chaos of these kind of visions, with no particular insight or lessons. I've been told by others that the feeling aspect to the experience is much more important, but I can't say I feel a great deal either, certainly nothing like the feelings invoked by ingesting psilocybe mushrooms. It seems like ayahuasca is just not very interested in interacting with me to any substantial degree.

I've heard some people say that ayahuasca only delivers when you are really in need of healing, which maybe I'm not?? That this is a plant that gives you what you need, not what you want is something I've heard echoed a fair few times and something I am totally open to. I'm not claiming by any stretch that I'm a flawless being, but I think I have a fairly good handle on my flaws, short comings and weak spots and don't need ayahuasca or any other plant to show me these.

I also observed some more negative aspects to ayahuasca while I was there, as did my sister who worked with this shaman for three months. Ayahuasca does seem to have the capacity, with some people at least, to fuel delusional thinking. It also seems to be a highly possessive plant for some, including the shaman who refuses to even acknowledge the value of another plants or fungi (in his view, ayahuasca is the product of God...was God wrong to create all these other plants and fungi?). For other people worthy or in need of healing, it fails to deliver. In others, including one of the people training there, ayahuasca can be overwhelmingly dark in nature, and consistently so. I did notice while out there it does seem to attract a few lost souls and a few crazy people. I'm not sure it greatly spiritually evolves shamans who work with it consistently either...for a plant that dissolves ego's, it seems it can build them up stronger over time, our shaman certainly had some big ego issues, viewing himself as some kind of Jesus like figure, and it seemed that shamans consistently bad mouth and are jealous of each other. The same thing seems to apply to iboga shamans as well. Just one person's perspective, but I know of a lovely lady who has a lot of experience with the plants, but also has a lot of Buddhist meditation experience in Buddhist temples in Thailand, and she described the Buddhist monks and abbots with a great deal of meditation experience as seeming on a whole different footing when it comes to spiritual advancement. Ayahuasca seems to definitely bestow spiritual gifts to some, but spiritual advancement is a very different thing. This isn’t to say I do not have a great deal of respect and reverence for ayahuasca. I believe it has done me good in the past, and I have seen it work near miraculous healings on people very close to me. I have also witnessed it do very little to people deserving of healing, become a crutch for others, and also possess, fuel delusions and interact with others in what I perceive as a negative way.

I know Dennis McKenna doesn't resonate with Alan Watt's statement "When you get the message, hang up the phone." But in this case, for me, I believe it applies. Maybe, being a scientist and having that kind of brain, blocks me in some way from experiencing ayahuasca in a certain way? This certainly didn't seem to block Dennis McKenna in any way. Although I'm well aware that Harvard Professor Richard E. Schultes, the founding father of Ethnobotany, only ever experienced colourful moving lines whenever he ingested ayahuasca, which resonates with my experiences.

I feel my time with ayahuasca is over, along with iboga, as I don't feel I can learn or assimilate anything from experiences that makes my ingesting these plants a worthwhile enterprise. I don't see this as a negative thing however and actually feel very satisfied I have experienced some kind of closure with ayahuasca out in Peru. However when I ingest psilocybe mushrooms I seem to connect with something much deeper, and consistently so, I seem to resonate with them much more, and I always have done, so I feel these will be a long term ally. Furthermore my interest in non substance means of consciousness exploration is growing, and I like the idea of being able to explore consciousness on my own terms without any crutches.

Wondering if anyone has any insight on any of this, or whether I'm a freak and outlier in this regard??

First off.... Seems like you dont really resonate with your facilitator and I think that is holding you back a lot. Your internal feelings about the group you drink with can effect your ceremony greatly. I think if you decide to drink in the future - try with a different group.

Second... You seem to have a lot of expectations. Expectations can block the ceremony so so much. One example - Ayahuasca rarely talks to me or shows me things. But I get tons of insights from her. The way this happens might look like this: I get super sick but instead of feeling sorry for myself like I did last ceremony when I was sick I instead feel grateful that I am sick because it means I am purging something I dont want anymore. These changes of perspective lead to other realizations when applied to myself and my life. Also, the challenges of dieting and being sick ect help me learn to find my own inner strength which is very important.

I think those are the two points that stand out most to me, but I have some other thoughts as well...

Maybe Ayahuasca isnt your plant - not everyone needs to work with it, and maybe other plants call you more (like San Pedro or mushrooms). Maybe you need to do other ground work before Ayahuasca really opens up to you - like other plants or maybe just more Ayahuasca (sometimes she takes a long time to open up to people and 25 ceremonies isnt a ton). Maybe dieting other plants will help you - I get the most benefit from this tradition dieting other plants - dieta takes me way deeper then Ayahuasca and really opens up the Ayahuasca as well. Maybe you need to drink larger doses or drink a second/third cup in ceremony to breakthrough more. Maybe you need more clarity on why you are drinking and what you hope to achieve by drinking (if you dont need healing, why are you drinking?).

There could be many factors. Maybe this isnt the path for you, or maybe a simple change of perspective could open this path up to you, who knows. I think you are the only one with the answers.

It sounds like mushrooms are just more your thing.

Mushrooms are, for myself, more colorful visually and often the visionary and psychological content is somewhat richer. I also find that mushrooms have a stronger push against my ego, leading me rather consistently to deeper entheogenic states.

I like ayahuasca, and had my first drink of traditional ayahuasca in maybe 3-4 years last night. It is of benefit in my life, but the mushrooms I feel more fond of.

I think with ayahuasca I get the most benefit when I drink 100+ grams of vine. Lower doses that don't make me sick do not seem to provide the same clarity of mind in the following days after the experience as larger vine doses do, regardless of the DMT content. Still, mushrooms and cacti have been, especially in the last year much closer to me.

The thing about ayahuasca, is that when it's good..it is really good. Other times it can be more monotone and subtle. I don't feel this comes from inexperience either, because I have drunk more than my fair share of the stuff.

My relationship to vaporized DMT is a little bit different, and cycles in my life. I feel like that is a relationship that will always maintain at some level. I have not smoked it since august, but I plan to soon. I certainly resonate with 5-MeO-DMT, perhaps more than I do with DMT.

There is a lot of cultural baggage that gets carried around with ayahuasca, and I feel like it is easy for people to get caught up in that and delude themselves somewhat.

Shamanism itself is rather culture bound. That is not necessarily a bad thing, in that context. I am more drawn at this point in my life to mysticism. We all suffer, and I don't necessarily view talking to spirits and spending my valuable time trying to learn the use of every single plant, to further my own cessation of that suffering. Dropping a lot of that junk about shamanism I spent a decade investing my time and beliefs in ended up eliciting some really serious growing pains. I am going off topic I know, but I can't always relate to the idea that every problem or disease a person has can be attributed to external spirits, shamanic darts, curses etc. I am not willing to throw out the idea entirely, but I do feel like many people are caught up in that paradigm and can spend years within it without going beyond it and looking at the one common denominator. Themselves. I am not sure why, but the ayahuasca culture is where I see this most heavily compared to the other psychedelic subcultures moving through the west currently.

Hi peeps,

Thanks a lot for the input.

travsha - I have drank with a variety of facilitators on numerous occasions...indigenous shamans, mestizo shamans and UK facilitators, some of whom are personal friends, and it has made no difference to the content of the experience. Although I didn't resonate with this facilitator's Christian approach, I do actually like him a great deal and was very happy he was leading the ceremonies. I also very much liked the last group I was drinking with, and my mum and sister were drinking by my side, and had very much deeper, more magical experiences than I had.

I've tried to go into my ayahuasca experiences without any expectations at all, and my intention in the last experiences have always been for ayahuasca to show or teach me what it thinks I need to know, as having any other specific intentions never seemed to yield results. Maybe you are onto something regarding clarity as to the reasons why I'm drinking, but at this stage in my life I do not feel I am in need of any particular healing.

jamie - I largely resonate with your views on ayahuasca. However for me it is never really good, the monotone and subtle vibe seems to predominate, even when I am experiencing otherwise powerful effects, it's strange. Mushrooms consistently and reliably take me somewhere much deeper, I feel I get all I really need from them and probably don't need to look elsewhere.

I think it is just a part of the experience of psilocybin, at least for myself. Psilocybin and 5-MeO-DMT both feel more mystical and personal for myself, in that there is a deeper sense of movement beyond this self. It does not mean it does not happen with DMT as well, it does, but it is less a part of that experience for me. With psilocybin I feel less at ease before I dose because I know it can take me into some serious ego struggles, same as 5-MeO-DMT. I do get much more out of those struggles though, than I do usually from DMT visions. Especially when my ego finally just dissapears for a time.

One more thing about mushrooms I enjoy, is that they are more bonding for me. I prefer mushrooms for connecting with others and talking things over rather than ayahuasca.

Yep I resonate with your feelings here jamie...I also find mushrooms MUCH more playful, ecstatic and blissful than ayahuasca, which is consistently much darker and more serious in tone. Not that pleasurable feelings are any kind of barometer when it comes to healing. But I feel that mushrooms are a great deal more user friendly than ayahuasca, and for me, a great deal more consistent and reliable. I also find them more bonding with others and reliably therapeutic...different strokes for different folks I guess.

Hi Bancopuma,

Thank you for sharing this. It was certainly interesting and eye opening. I have zero experience with traditional ayahuasca but I connect deeply with mushrooms. After reading this, it might just stay that way.

Bancopuma, was there also no change noticed in the days/week(s) after?
I had ceremonies where I thought nothing really hit home during or immediately after, but then quite a period after there was a tremendous stable feeling, especially emotional, and having a rock solid focus, like hey where does this quality comes from?
Sometimes I think work is done backgrounds and not in the front stage noticeable.

Hi peeps, I'm certainly not intending to state an overview that I believe applies to all, this is definitely just my own personal view and should not and will not apply to others in all cases. So good to be open minded to these things and find what resonates with you, and what doesn't, personally. But I do feel I connect more deeply with mushrooms than with ayahuasca, and in a consistent and reliable fashion.

Jees - On reflection, I think this is where I have received the greatest benefit from ayahuasca, not during the experience but afterwards, and this seems to resonate with the experience with others, including those with much more experience of ayahuasca than I. So I think you may well be onto something, and I have noticed a greater clarity, calmness and an increase in empathy and vitality following ayahuasca I think. So I guess I shouldn't get hung up on the experience itself and just be open to what I gain afterwards.

I've only drank aya a few handful of times, but for my experiences, most were deeply personal. There were a few experiences to where I was looking/feeling/experiencing vicariously through the eyes of my ex, my mom and dad, but other than that most of my experiences have been highly introspective and personal. So you're not alone there. There were also several fully obliterative experiences as well, where I knew I was in the presence of something far far beyond what I could ever put words on.



That would've turned me away almost instantly. It most likely would've affected my experiences in some manner. Wouldn't doubt if that in itself played some role in forming some sort of resistance within yourself (since it didn't resonate), that then spilling over into your experience/s. Maybe it didn't affect anything? My guess is that it probably did though; although it's still hard to say.



I agree insofar as these things being a mirror in many ways. The "god, angels, satan, jehova, mary, etc" I don't doubt, being that they're others experiences, but on the same note I think our linguistics is so thin and flimsy when describing what comes about during these experiences, whether it be smoked dmt, ayahuasca, a good dose of mushrooms, etc. Labels are a tough one with these things. Also, for me personally I was never keen on subsuming the whole of the experience by the parts, 'i.e - focusing on specific aspect during and instantly labeling these aspects'.



I could be totally wrong in assuming this, but maybe the brews were relatively weak relative to your individual self? Or maybe it's your personal physiology that holds these things at a distance compared to others. Maybe it's something unseen and deeper? Really hard to say from my end. Id put a good portion of my chips over towards the brews being not too strong. Personally, if I was experiencing what you have, id try adjusting the dosages a bit higher. Also, maybe you could try aya by yourself away from others, in a setting designed to be conducive to you personally. Maybe attempting some reasonably stiff brews alone would change things up in a way that could allow you to be more receptive to these experiences. Not to sound like im devaluing a group context or working with a curandero.



Yeah, this goes back to the whole dogma thing, which this particular shaman/individual seems to be reasonably embedded in. And regarding the delusional thinking, idk, I think every other psychedelic known can fuel delusional thinking just as much and possibly moreso than aya. Also you have to take into account that while one individual might become somewhat delusional in their thinking with aya and not-so on say mushrooms, another person (altogether different from the first person i mentioned) could become somewhat delusional on mushrooms and not-so say with aya. I think people vary so much with these things and how they link up with the experience. It's hard to draw any fast conclusions. Plus there's a likely chance there's many unseen factors at play aside from what I said above. Hard to say.




I totally agree with much of what you said. Although I think the building of the ego through aya can be easily said for other plant medicines as well. In the last analysis, imo, people are the ones I believe to be deluding themselves. Imho I don't think aya particularly takes over/possesses and deludes people directly. If anything, imo, the delusion comes thereafter, once said person is back in his everyday life with all his faculties settling back in. I think there's just some people that don't handle it well over time.





Well said friend Yeah I think for a few, these experiences are held back in some sense; essentially what I was saying above. Who knows though, it's hard to say really. Im glad you find mushrooms to be of greater benefit though and a solid fit for yourself. That's what matters in the end imo. I need to start working with mushrooms more tbh. I feel many people underestimate the transformative power of them. I've been there several times, being easily just as moving and powerful than brews and the various admixtures.

Dont give up!--spent months in the beginning with no dream effects. In dreams, a large amount of good vine brew or extract with good quality hot leaf brew taken at exact same time as caapi has never failed to impress for 4 hours, with a strong afterglow rest of night and all of next day. Too much leaf can be a hell experience but just the right amount or less, a divine heavenly experience for many hours w/love charting the course, beautiful female prescence usually always seen w/closed eyes guiding the experience. The dreamlike sequence of visions lasting for hours, don't do it fairness w/my words but Benny Shannon captures the experience eloquently in his 500 page book "Antipodes of the Mind" where he took Ayahuasca some 185 times in UDV or Santo Daime religious ritual settings and in Peru, highly recommended book. In dreams, have seen fairy tale lands made of candy canes, architecture on a grand scale, Island tikis, circus carousel melting and being rebuilt from top to bottom, artwork, found lost objects hidden for years, chalkboards full of grand mathematical equations and discoveries, Renaissance period events, pyramid structures...the list is mind-boggling. Music is extraordinarily beautiful, open eyed visuals are incredible, personally in dreams have dreamed it over 40 times over the years, with many mess-ups in the beginning (for months) till getting it right -- can recommend once you find a good source of caapi and leaf -- hold on to it and make it last. Eating breakfast is fine, but then fasting for about 7 hours after that works best, any food in the stomach can really cancel the whole experience -- can be a huge misfire as poster mentioned above. Cadillac brewing is a nausea-free method of brewing whereas 9g very high quality leaf is blended up and brewed in 9 oz spring water, boiling hot, in a pyrex dish for 20 minutes on high to med heat, then filter off the leaf through cotton or silk fabric, then put brew in tall 1/2 pint jar in fridge for a few hours to allow any/all sediment to fall to the bottom, decant off only the murky tea-brown colored liquid above the sediment to use, get's rid of sediment that is irriating and nausea causing to the intestines. Never in dreams drink cold but re-heat to very hot. Transcends normal everyday reality and connects one in dreams with a higher spiritual plane of existence, Love is the guiding force. Eating a good breakfast and a small lunch and waiting till 5 or 6pm is fine as well and works great.


Unraveling the Mystery of the Origin of Ayahuasca by Gayle Highpine:
http://www.ayahuasca.com...the-origin-of-ayahuasca/
hxxp://www.ayahuasca.com/ayahuasca-overviews/unraveling-the-mystery-of-the-origin-of-ayahuasca/

7 g of caapi leaf ?

isn't that too little to do anything?

That's not what he wrote, is it? I read it like "vine plus leaf", where leaf probably meant chacruna leaf.

An amount of good quality psychotria.